God's Foreknowledge and Man's Free Will

[VilhelmVolk]

Sorry if this discussion has been done to death already, but the question of how complete omniscience (foreknowledge of all events) and human free will can be truly compatible has been tearing me up and is really the first brick wall I have hit in my honest inquiry into Orthodox Christianity.

This all started when I listened to the first episode of ORIGINS: Creationism, Evolution, and an Orthodox Theology of Creation that Patristic Nectar was offering for free a while ago. Bishop Irenei talks about the idea of the lamb (Jesus Christ) having been slain before the foundation of the world, saying that (apologies if I get this paraphrasing wrong) that God exists outside of time and thus for Him, all has already happened according to his will, so that everything we experience and everything that happens is exactly as God intended; that God does not make mistakes and that the incarnation and resurrection of Jesus Christ had already happened from God's perspective even before the creation of the universe.

While I can understand this conceptually, I feel like it introduces a great many problems, especially when it comes to things like our free will. I have been doing a lot of reading and listening on this topic in the past few weeks, but I just can't seem to find a satisfying answer. Maybe there isn't one. It seems the typical argument goes that God's foreknowledge of our actions does not mean we still do not freely take them, or that His foreknowledge of events does not mean He caused them to happen. I could see that argument *if* God were not also the creator of everything and possessed complete foreknowledge of all events before (in our sense of time at least) He willed the act of creation.

The combination of complete foreknowledge and the act of creation is what confuses me. It also makes so much of what I have read of the bible no longer make any sense. There are so many instances of God expressing His disappointment, regret, or otherwise *reacting* to events, but this seems nonsensical to me if He genuinely knew everything that would ever happen even before He decided to make everything.

Are there any really good Orthodox writings on this topic? I picked up On The Incarnation by St. Athanasius, and while it was an absolutely fantastic and enlightening read, it did not really cover this aspect.

Again, sorry if this has already been covered, but any information that you fine people could share to help me wrap my head around this concept would be greatly appreciated. I have been thinking about it almost non-stop since the problem first popped into my head.

 

[Roosh]

It sounds like you are reading advanced texts that are above the level for someone who is not in the Church (even for someone in the Church). It's not a surprise that you would get confused. Have you asked these questions to an Orthodox priest? What did he say? Also, have you attended a Liturgy?

 

[VilhelmVolk]

It sounds like you are reading advanced texts that are above the level for someone who is not in the Church (even for someone in the Church). It's not a surprise that you would get confused. Have you asked these questions to an Orthodox priest? What did he say? Also, have you attended a Liturgy?

Thanks for the reply!

I have been attending liturgy on Sundays (and Vespers services when I can) for a bit more than a month now. Thank God I found a great church nearby. I have been talking with the priest there, who has been very welcoming, and he has given me his blessing to begin attending Catechism classes, so I am very excited about that. He also has recordings of his past classes available online, many of which I have already listened to. His classes use the book "The Faith: An Orthodox Catechism" by Clark Carlton as a supporting text. I picked it up and am about half way through now. It's really an excellent book.

Anyway, I absolutely intend to talk to him about this specific topic the next time I get an opportunity to do so, but I figured this would be one of those more general topics, like the meaning of the incarnation or the significance of the Trinity, etc. that would already have a clear cut teaching based on hundreds of years of debate by saints and theologians. I'm sadly just not finding that, but maybe I'm approaching it from the wrong angle.

 

[analyst_green]

Personally, I try not to think about it too much because it hurts my head. I just content myself knowing that an omnipotent God can find a way, in His infinite wisdom that far surpasses our own, to both know what we're going to do and simultaneously leave the choice up to us. If there's an Orthodox teaching on this, I'll cross that bridge when the time comes.

But I'm sure that God is the only reason we do have free will. If there were no god, every human action would be a result of atoms and molecules bumping into each other since the Big Bang. Every decision would be just an electrochemical impulse that results from the motions of those atoms and molecules. And it could only happen one way since the trajectory of these particles would obey the inflexible laws of physics since their origin in the Big Bang. So seeking union with God, to me, comforts me in knowing that I do make my own choices.

 

[Roosh]

I'm sure others can give you a more specific answer, but my instinct is to say that you are trying to fully comprehend one of the deepest mysteries of God in an intellectual level without an appropriate level of faith. When I come across such a difficulty, I satisfy myself with what with the Church says, believing that I haven't achieved a level of purification where such a mystery can be revealed.

People may think this answer is a cop-out, but Orthodoxy is not a rationalist faith where everything must be understood easily by the human mind. We're simply too impure to understand things on a level that would give complete satisfaction. If God wants you to know it, He will let you know.

 

[Blade Runner]

The idea of the incarnation will really scramble your noodle then, OP! But thank God for it.

To Him be all the glory, forever.

 

[VilhelmVolk]

But I'm sure that God is the only reason we do have free will. If there were no god, every human action would be a result of atoms and molecules bumping into each other since the Big Bang. Every decision would be just an electrochemical impulse that results from the motions of those atoms and molecules. And it could only happen one way since the trajectory of these particles would obey the inflexible laws of physics since their origin in the Big Bang. So seeking union with God, to me, comforts me in knowing that I do make my own choices.

Yeah, I agree that God must be the source of free will, but I feel like some degree of undetermination is required for free will to truly exist, which is what is messing with me.

I'm sure others can give you a more specific answer, but my instinct is to say that you are trying to fully comprehend one of the deepest mysteries of God in an intellectual level without an appropriate level of faith. When I come across such a difficulty, I satisfy myself with what with the Church says, believing that I haven't achieved a level of purification where such a mystery can be revealed.

People may think this answer is a cop-out, but Orthodoxy is not a rationalist faith where everything must be understood easily by the human mind. We're simply too impure to understand things on a level that would give complete satisfaction. If God wants you to know it, He will let you know.

Thank you! That seems like a good approach and perhaps you're right that it just requires more faith or perhaps we are simply not to know.

It's just that I feel like everything else I've encountered when it comes to Orthodox beliefs are explained in a highly reasonable way. For example, the whole question of why God allows for sin and evil in the first place is explained by his giving us free will out of a real love for us.

With that said, what are (if any) the Church teachings on the idea of time and God's foreknowledge of events? I know that God exists outside of time, but I like to think that He created time in a way that the future is not yet determined, meaning that God not having foreknowledge of events that have yet to come into existence would not even be a problem (like how God could not make something True also simultaneously be False), but I imagine this is wishful thinking on my behalf to try and reconcile the idea of omniscience with true free will.

The idea of the incarnation will really scramble your noodle then, OP! But thank God for it.

To Him be all the glory, forever.

I loved On The Incarnation by St. Athanasius. It was only around 100 pages long, but dense and an amazing read. It really clarified for me why the incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection all had to happen how they did for our salvation.

 

[Lawrence87]

I think the betrayal of Christ is a good example to explain this. Judas could have chosen not to betray Christ. His freewill was not violated. As I understand it, had Judas not betrayed Christ someone would have, and it would have been according to their own free will. Although its a bit strange to discuss these matters in past tense.

Where God's will involves ultilizing the actions of people, He does not do so by removing their freedom, but using people who will freely work towards those ends.

It's also true that we aren't absolutely free. I cannot choose to not be a man. I cannot choose to not have been born where and when I was born. I cannot do anything in my present circumstance, I can only choose from a limited number of options. I can choose to live in a godly manner or not for example. Essentially this is the basis of our freedom. Judas could have chosen to remain loyal to Christ. But how many people are willing to betray Christ in the world? Its not hard to imagine that someone would do it.

 

[Blade Runner]

It's also true that we aren't absolutely free.

Yes, and ironically we can think in absolutes as well because we are made in the image of God. God knows that our free will is more of a self determination based on reacting to our surroundings, which you point out correctly, we had no say in. In my studies more of our will is based on the ability to restrict ourselves, rather than apply ourselves. This is good news on the basis that we can say no to sin, or reject impulses or hormonal "suggestions" but sad for some in that the things driving them (their potential, their inclinations, etc) are more or less determined (their ceiling, their talents, etc), unless they take on extreme discipline and habit forming measures ...

 

[TheLoneReader]

I've always thought of free will as a sort of test of true love. Psalm 139 declares we are fearfully and wonderfully made, so I've always taken that, while God has created us in wonder, there is also the element of fear because there is the possibility that we will choose the wrong path or ultimately deny Him of our own will.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. - John 3:16 ESV

Notice the "whoever", it is an open invite to all, but leaves the choice to all. Why would God create automatons (like Calvinism seems to imply) where a few select ones love Him back because He controls them? Could it said to be true love in that case? I don't think so. We are created in His Image and therefore we have the free will to choose to love Him back (He first loved us).

As far as foreknowledge, God is the Alpha and the Omega. He sees every minute decision that any one person can make in any single moment of time. He knows all the possibilities; yet, he knows ultimately which possibility each and every person will make a certainty at any moment of their lives. He knows what the ultimate culmination and outcome of the life of that person will be.

 

[VilhelmVolk]

I've always thought of free will as a sort of test of true love. Psalm 139 declares we are fearfully and wonderfully made, so I've always taken that, while God has created us in wonder, there is also the element of fear because there is the possibility that we will choose the wrong path or ultimately deny Him of our own will.

Notice the "whoever", it is an open invite to all, but leaves the choice to all. Why would God create automatons (like Calvinism seems to imply) where a few select ones love Him back because He controls them? Could it said to be true love in that case? I don't think so. We are created in His Image and therefore we have the free will to choose to love Him back (He first loved us).

Thanks for the reply. This was exactly my line of thinking. It also explains how God interacts with humans in the Old Testament, particularly the Pentateuch, often with disappointment and sadness for our state.

As far as foreknowledge, God is the Alpha and the Omega. He sees every minute decision that any one person can make in any single moment of time. He knows all the possibilities; yet, he knows ultimately which possibility each and every person will make a certainty at any moment of their lives. He knows what the ultimate culmination and outcome of the life of that person will be.

The way I am looking at it now is that of course God knows everything that is possibly knowable, but what if the future is simply unknowable, having not yet come into existence, even from God's standpoint outside of creation (and time)? This would allow for true free will to exist alongside God's total omniscience.

I do fear this might just be wishful thinking on my behalf. However, I have been trying to find bible verses and sayings of the Apostles and Church Fathers or other Saints that elucidate this idea of complete foreknowledge, but there does not seem to be anything definitive, or at least I am failing to find it.

 

[TheLoneReader]

However, I have been trying to find bible verses and sayings of the Apostles and Church Fathers or other Saints that elucidate this idea of complete foreknowledge, but there does not seem to be anything definitive, or at least I am failing to find it.

I don't think it is necessarily stated directly, but more or less shown to us. A great example is the book of Daniel and also the book of Revelation/Apocalypse. Both of these books overlap each other and it is almost as if we have two separate time travelers (Daniel and John) from various vantages of time viewing the events of the future. This could not happen if God did not know what the future held in store, so I believe it's implied that God does have the foreknowledge. He places these men in view of these future events so they can write about them.

I also think this would tie into his foreknowing how circumstances would play out when He became incarnate. There are details and mysteries we can't fathom in our limited framework, but God knew every possibility and how He brought Himself into the world and how it would play out, thereby He was able to present clues throughout scripture that would validate that Christ was indeed "I AM".

 

[Hermetic Seal]

I don't think it's surprising that inquirers into Orthodoxy would have struggles and questions on this subject, considering that the influence of Calvinism looms large in the contemporary evangelical world from which many are coming. It's also a bit of a different line of thought compared to educated evangelicals on the subject of time; for instance, popular apologist Dr. William Lane Craig teaches that God was timeless before creation, but entered into time "in the beginning."

This is different from the Orthodox view, where God is timeless, but Christ is in time in His human nature; a somewhat more complex and difficult concept to really grasp (although St. John of Damascus's "Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith" does a pretty good job of making it understandable.)

Think of time like a bubble of sorts, where God is outside, "touching" it, involved yet not constrained to the linearity of those inside, and able to see past, present, and future all as one simultaneous thing outside the time-bubble. We, inside and constrained by time, have free will and can make decisions, but God knows how things will turn out. At least, I find this sort of analogy helpful.

 

[VilhelmVolk]

I don't think it's surprising that inquirers into Orthodoxy would have struggles and questions on this subject, considering that the influence of Calvinism looms large in the contemporary evangelical world from which many are coming. It's also a bit of a different line of thought compared to educated evangelicals on the subject of time; for instance, popular apologist Dr. William Lane Craig teaches that God was timeless before creation, but entered into time "in the beginning."

This is different from the Orthodox view, where God is timeless, but Christ is in time in His human nature; a somewhat more complex and difficult concept to really grasp (although St. John of Damascus's "Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith" does a pretty good job of making it understandable.)

Think of time like a bubble of sorts, where God is outside, "touching" it, involved yet not constrained to the linearity of those inside, and able to see past, present, and future all as one simultaneous thing outside the time-bubble. We, inside and constrained by time, have free will and can make decisions, but God knows how things will turn out. At least, I find this sort of analogy helpful.

Thank you for the reply! I had not heard of that writing by St. John of Damascus, but I am eager to read it now.

I'm not having trouble imagining time and our reality as something that, from God's perspective, is basically a static object that can be viewed from beginning to end as He pleases, but it's just that this view of time, our reality, and how God interacts with it makes so much of what I understand about Christianity no longer make any sense. Basically all of Genesis and the interactions of God with humanity, for example, no longer make sense if God knew exactly how everything would end even from before (if such a concept can exist) he willed the act of creation. Sadly, I have no found anything in the footnotes of the Orthodox Study Bible that seems to address this.

There are multiple examples of God warning Man, wanting him to act in a certain way, expressing clear disappointment when he does not, and acting in accordance with that disappointment. These examples, to me at least, no longer makes sense if God knew from before any of these interactions precisely how Man would behave. It boggles the mind in combination with the belief that we truly do have free will to make choices within the confines of the rules of our reality, and we have this ability precisely because God made us in His image and truly loves us, wanting us to also love Him out of our own volition.

Honestly, the entire idea of God "wanting" anything starts to break down for me if absolute foreknowledge of all things from before creation is true. Logically, this seems to eliminate the concept of "possibilities" from existence.

I'm just rambling at this point, but I have to say, this is something I'm really struggling with.

 

[scorpion]

I'm not having trouble imagining time and our reality as something that, from God's perspective, is basically a static object that can be viewed from beginning to end as He pleases, but it's just that this view of time, our reality, and how God interacts with it makes so much of what I understand about Christianity no longer make any sense.

I am loathe to answer questions in the Orthodox subforum since I am not Orthodox, but seeing as this a more of a philosophical question than a doctrinal one, I think I can safely offer my take here. When considering this topic, it's important to understand that every single bit of human knowledge, sensory information and understanding all lies within the material, created world. Further, all of our classifications, properties and scientific categorizations also are inherently and directly tied to the physical, material world. In other words, everything we think about rationally is itself a material property. Time itself is a property of matter, then. Movement is also a property of matter. Cause and effect are properties of matter. Perhaps most strangely of all, being is itself a property of matter (i.e. being in the sense that I am scorpion, Roosh is Roosh, and you are you).

But since God exists completely outside of the material world, He is totally unbound by these restrictions inherent to matter.

There is no time to God: He is timeless.
There is no cause to God: He simply is (i.e. 'I AM THAT I AM' Exodus 3:14)
There is no limitation to the being/form of God: He exists in a Trinitarian form alien to our singular understanding of being

When you think about God in these terms, His ability to exist outside of time and therefore have completely knowledge of time and space (matter) makes much more sense. Given that we exist inside the material world, and are subject to the effects of time, cause and effect, entropy, etc... as a consequence, our perception of reality will be much different and comically more limited than that of God's. I believe it is this incredible gap in knowledge, perspective and understanding between our view and God's that explains our inability to unravel the mystery of how human free will aligns with God's ultimate sovereignty and foreknowledge. And that gap is simply unbridgeable with human knowledge, and always will be.

But this is exactly why God gave us the gift of faith, and calls us to exercise it.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

The New Testament uses two words to describe time: Kairos (God's time) and Kronos (Man's time). Perhaps looking at how the New Testament employs these concepts will shed some light on the answers you seek.

 

[Hermetic Seal]

There are multiple examples of God warning Man, wanting him to act in a certain way, expressing clear disappointment when he does not, and acting in accordance with that disappointment. These examples, to me at least, no longer makes sense if God knew from before any of these interactions precisely how Man would behave. It boggles the mind in combination with the belief that we truly do have free will to make choices within the confines of the rules of our reality, and we have this ability precisely because God made us in His image and truly loves us, wanting us to also love Him out of our own volition.

If I can hazard a response to this point, I'd say that a lot of that is anthropizing God for the benefit of the "audience" to make Him more relatable, in the same way that Scripture often talks about God's eyes, hands, other physical features in a figurative way.

It's important to remember that Christianity is a religion of revelation, God isn't just some guy who's like us but really really powerful, He is a being whose whole way of thinking and operation is utterly beyond us and we are only privy to some small degree of understanding through what's given to us through revelation.

It's this principle that's at the heart of the Orthodox concept of apophatic theology and a general reticence to rationalize about God, rigorous theological speculation characteristic of the Latin church and its protestant offspring, which tends to treat God as though he's some kind of machine that operates according to external, rational principles subject to human analysis.

How exactly does the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ? We don't exactly know.
How does God know the future with certainty, yet we are fully free actors and completely responsible for our actions? We don't exactly know.

At some point in my own faith journey, I became fine with being able to say that I don't have all the answers or will ever understand it all. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand things about the faith, but our comprehension has its limits.

 

[Iacobus]

I tend to think of God's creation as a kind of infinite tapestry... through our free will and choices we may tug at or rearrange a few insignificant strands but God is the one weaving the big picture and it will assemble according to His will no matter what we do... any choice any of us could possibly make can be seamlessly interwoven into His plan.

 

[Hadrian]

The New Testament uses two words to describe time: Kairos (God's time) and Kronos (Man's time). Perhaps looking at how the New Testament employs these concepts will shed some light on the answers you seek.

That is not correct. Kairos is set time, as a destined event or fate, chronos is time that flows chronologically (as a flow of movements and events). They are not opposites but describe the variations time has. What is described it that 1000 years are one day for God and vice-versa.