God's Judgment on the West

infowarrior1

Ostrich
This popped into my youtube feed:

But what he describes is very accurate in regards to what is happening to us. When God chastises a Nation he begins 1st with "Moths and Rottenness" that is eating away of wealth and prosperity. Of our luxuries being ruined one by one(Going Woke?).

And then there is the "Young Lion" chastisement when God brings in foreigners to conquer the country and kill the people with disease and violence.

The West when it started abandoning Christianity. God's chastisement was at the "Moths and Rottenness" stage. Causing Civilization to decay. People being unsatisfied with materialism and turning to ideologies. That is the part when people eat but are not satisfied. Drink but are still thirsty. Happiness and contentment become increasingly out of reach. All the good things of society become hollow. Empty.

The fruits of Labor is less than we put in and so forth. It is a gentler warning from God for the Society to repent from its current Path.

But if the Society persists. It will proceed to Famine,War, Disease and general accelerated mortality.
 
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ginsu

Sparrow
I'm a newbie when it comes to things about god. But can someone explain why would god resort to chastisements and punishments ?. What kind of example is it when you have to keep your followers in line under threat of punishment. I wouldn't follow a man who could not inspire people to follow him naturally but had to resort to force and disciplining. Why should i hold god to different standards.

It makes more sense to me that God would not punish anyone, but let the natural consequences of stepping away from the right path act as the warnings and punishment. It would just be a matter of not intervening with people who willingly chose to bring pain and suffering on themselves but always having the door open to them if they came to see the mistakes in their ways and are finally ready to start doing the right things. Just like you would do with any other person in your own life. Fat people have to decide for themselves to turn away from unhealthy lifestyles, you could beat them into submission and force them to live a healthier lifestyle. but why would you ?. They won't be grateful even if they ended up losing the fat, and they will go back to McDonald as soon as you let your guard down.

''God brings in foreigners to conquer the country and kill the people with disease and violence'' doesn't make any sense to me. And if it is really like that then this is no leader i wish to align with or follow. Fortunately for me the idea that's growing inside of me about what god is or means to me is different. If that means i don't agree with the bible or its considered blasphemy then it is like that. The nature of finding your way out of clown world and becoming red pilled means thinking for yourself and fitting the information together in a way that makes sense to you. Not taking anything for granted and always asking why. I will continue to do so even when it comes to god. We are by definition the anti followers, and averse to peer pressure and threats and punishments. Otherwise we would have stayed plugged in to clown world. The angle of god bringing his wrath down on you if you don't do x or y, is not going to attract many people i imagine.
 
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Salocin

Pigeon
I'm a newbie when it comes to things about god. But can someone explain why would god resort to chastisements and punishments ?. What kind of example is it when you have to keep your followers in line under threat of punishment. I wouldn't follow a man who could not inspire people to follow him naturally but had to resort to force and disciplining. Why should i hold god to different standards.

It makes more sense to me that God would not punish anyone, but let the natural consequences of stepping away from the right path act as the warnings and punishment. It would just be a matter of not intervening with people who willingly chose to bring pain and suffering on themselves but always having the door open to them if they came to see the mistakes in their ways and are finally ready to start doing the right things. Just like you would do with any other person in your own life. Fat people have to decide for themselves to turn away from unhealthy lifestyles, you could beat them into submission and force them to live a healthier lifestyle. but why would you ?. They won't be grateful even if they ended up losing the fat, and they will go back to McDonald as soon as you let your guard down.

''God brings in foreigners to conquer the country and kill the people with disease and violence'' doesn't make any sense to me. And if it is really like that then this is no leader i wish to align with or follow. Fortunately for me the idea that's growing inside of me about what god is or means to me is different. If that means i don't agree with the bible or its considered blasphemy then it is like that. The nature of finding your way out of clown world and becoming red pilled means thinking for yourself and fitting the information together in a way that makes sense to you. Not taking anything for granted and always asking why. I will continue to do so even when it comes to god. We are by definition the anti followers, and averse to peer pressure and threats and punishments. Otherwise we would have stayed plugged in to clown world. The angle of god bringing his wrath down on you if you don't do x or y, is not going to attract many people i imagine.
Do you not believe in reward and punishment? From parenting to the workplace these are tools used to incentivize appropriate behavior.
 

ginsu

Sparrow
Do you not believe in reward and punishment? From parenting to the workplace these are tools used to incentivize appropriate behavior.
I do believe in those things yes. But in the case of god is the reward itself not already enough incentive ?. The reward being avoiding unneeded suffering and even feeling peace and fulfillment. If you said that god created all things and so he is also indirectly responsible for any negative consequences ( punishment ) that you receive if you turn your back on his advice. Then i understand that. But to say that he is actively sending punishment i don't understand this. I'm just curious and providing the perspective of a newbie to this.

If i quit my job, any punishment from my bosses would stop. They have no more control or interest over my behavior in return i also don't receive any reward from them. In parenting when you reach adulthood you can also choose to turn away from your parents, and your parents going after you to keep punishing you for running away will not incentive you to come back to them. It will just have the opposite effect of pushing you away. The only times where punishment works to bring someone back in line is where they have no other choice. That amounts to blackmail and it doesn't appeal to me. A child has no other choice then to comply with the parents will or submitting after receiving punishments, running away is no option. Does that mean that we are gods underage children in the sense that we have no free will or choice to separate from him ?. Punishment in this case is an effective tool but you will not inspire gratitude for applying it. Even if it seems now that we are godless in the west is it actually that the relationship is still ongoing and this is merely seen as insubordination. In this case active punishment makes some sense to me to accomplish a goal, but again it does not inspire anything good.

If i am in a relationship i apply corrective punishment in the extremely rare cases where its needed to put things back on track. But if she chose to leave me i wouldn't go after her and keep sending punishment to try to force her to come back into my care. That's what a psychopath would do. She is free to chose to follow me, or not. As she knows the advantages, i don't have to punish her for leaving because it wouldn't work anyway. It would just confirm that leaving was the right choice. It also doesn't appeal to me, to think people would come to god out of fear that he will punish them instead of being motivated by positive things.
 

Salocin

Pigeon
I am no theologian, but I do indeed view mankind as essentially small children as we pertain to God Almighty.

I view us like a toddler that only wants to eat sweets, and thinks his parents are mean when they deny him what he wants, and demand he eat the healthy meal they prepared for him.

And when he throws a tantrum, and knocks the plate of food on the floor he is sent to timeout. This punishment seems like the worst thing imaginable to a 3 year old. His parents are big, unfair meanies!

It's humbling, but imagine yourself as the three year old, and God as the parents in this scenario.
 

Aboulia

Sparrow
I'm a newbie when it comes to things about god. But can someone explain why would god resort to chastisements and punishments ?. What kind of example is it when you have to keep your followers in line under threat of punishment. I wouldn't follow a man who could not inspire people to follow him naturally but had to resort to force and disciplining. Why should i hold god to different standards.

It makes more sense to me that God would not punish anyone, but let the natural consequences of stepping away from the right path act as the warnings and punishment. It would just be a matter of not intervening with people who willingly chose to bring pain and suffering on themselves but always having the door open to them if they came to see the mistakes in their ways and are finally ready to start doing the right things. Just like you would do with any other person in your own life. Fat people have to decide for themselves to turn away from unhealthy lifestyles, you could beat them into submission and force them to live a healthier lifestyle. but why would you ?. They won't be grateful even if they ended up losing the fat, and they will go back to McDonald as soon as you let your guard down.

''God brings in foreigners to conquer the country and kill the people with disease and violence'' doesn't make any sense to me. And if it is really like that then this is no leader i wish to align with or follow. Fortunately for me the idea that's growing inside of me about what god is or means to me is different. If that means i don't agree with the bible or its considered blasphemy then it is like that. The nature of finding your way out of clown world and becoming red pilled means thinking for yourself and fitting the information together in a way that makes sense to you. Not taking anything for granted and always asking why. I will continue to do so even when it comes to god. We are by definition the anti followers, and averse to peer pressure and threats and punishments. Otherwise we would have stayed plugged in to clown world. The angle of god bringing his wrath down on you if you don't do x or y, is not going to attract many people i imagine.
That viewpoint is in line with Orthodox thought. IMHO the view of God punishing people is more of an Old Testament thing, when the Logos (Jesus Christ) wasn't manifest as clear path for man to follow, then those with a dim view would see it as God punishing them, because they didn't fully understand why.
 

Blade Runner

Woodpecker
Yes, it comes back to the concept of allowing people to receive what they desire [in their hearts], and then dealing with the consequences.

"Oh, after all we've been through you want to do it on your own now? Ok, let's see how this works out for you."

In the semitic world, since God has power over everything, he either lets things happen or he doesn't. Because Christians have a fuller understanding of what is going on (God's providence) they thus use the word "chastisement" when "bad things" are "allowed" since it is along the spectrum of a path towards repentance after you suffer and come to your senses. "Punishment" is generally reserved for final judgments and that's why you see the word used that way in parables, or when we talk about such things, etc. that have a finality. This state has things in common with those in constant rebellion, as they will not allow themselves to ever approach God, for whatever reason --- his life is not one of coercion but love and freedom. As a result, and in the end, people always punish themselves. And as we've seen, they do it always by denying the Truth.
 

Athanasius

Kingfisher
That only makes sens
I'm a newbie when it comes to things about god. But can someone explain why would god resort to chastisements and punishments ?. What kind of example is it when you have to keep your followers in line under threat of punishment. I wouldn't follow a man who could not inspire people to follow him naturally but had to resort to force and disciplining. Why should i hold god to different standards.

It makes more sense to me that God would not punish anyone, but let the natural consequences of stepping away from the right path act as the warnings and punishment. It would just be a matter of not intervening with people who willingly chose to bring pain and suffering on themselves but always having the door open to them if they came to see the mistakes in their ways and are finally ready to start doing the right things. Just like you would do with any other person in your own life. Fat people have to decide for themselves to turn away from unhealthy lifestyles, you could beat them into submission and force them to live a healthier lifestyle. but why would you ?. They won't be grateful even if they ended up losing the fat, and they will go back to McDonald as soon as you let your guard down.
This is a lack of understanding of God's holiness and hatred of sin. We are all guilty and deserve punishment (Rom 3). God is holy and sinning against him isn't a foible, it is damnable sin. The experience of those who came face to face with God in his glory is trembling at his holiness, as in Isaiah 6. Hebrews 11: "It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." One of the interesting passages of the NT is in Luke 13. Jesus is asked about disasters that befell certain people. Asked if they were worse than other people, Jesus said no, and then puts it right back on the questioners by saying that unless you repent you will likewise perish. Then he tells the parable of the fig tree, which ends with "cut it down."

Hard words, but that's the reality of our situation. God calls us all to repent and believe in him, and realize He doesn't need us and he doesn't owe us anything. We, meanwhile, owe Him everything. Every breath we take is a gift from His hand, and he can take away that gift at His good pleasure without doing us wrong. We don't deserve anything good and yet he blesses us with good things. This is His world and He does as He pleases.
 

Blade Runner

Woodpecker
I would be careful with the way you word and express that last paragraph, Athanasius. His "needing" us is a non sequitir, and no he doesn't just do as he pleases as if he is one of us, capricious and rash. In fact, and it's paradoxical idea, but there are some things he cannot do. But it's not totally the right way to say it, but it has effect, and for good reason. For example, he cannot lie. He cannot deny himself. A being (or one who is beyond being) with integrity and who is the source of truth and all that is good in fact cannot be an antithesis to these things.

Put another way, we trust in God because he is this source of goodness and actually because he won't just do "as he pleases", but rather he does all he can so that his people will be set apart, saved, made righteous - just as he is righteous.
 

infowarrior1

Ostrich
Yes, it comes back to the concept of allowing people to receive what they desire [in their hearts], and then dealing with the consequences.

"Oh, after all we've been through you want to do it on your own now? Ok, let's see how this works out for you."

In the semitic world, since God has power over everything, he either lets things happen or he doesn't. Because Christians have a fuller understanding of what is going on (God's providence) they thus use the word "chastisement" when "bad things" are "allowed" since it is along the spectrum of a path towards repentance after you suffer and come to your senses. "Punishment" is generally reserved for final judgments and that's why you see the word used that way in parables, or when we talk about such things, etc. that have a finality. This state has things in common with those in constant rebellion, as they will not allow themselves to ever approach God, for whatever reason --- his life is not one of coercion but love and freedom. As a result, and in the end, people always punish themselves. And as we've seen, they do it always by denying the Truth.
God handing people over is one of the themes of Romans 1. Leaving people to the consequences of their own actions is a form of Judgment.


Paul specifically commanded that a sexually immoral man to be expelled from the church to be handed over to satan. Then he says ""god judges those who are outside"

So handing over to Satan is Judgment. When God steps back and let's Satan have his way.
 

Leonard D Neubache

Owl
Gold Member
This is correct. People don't realize the protection they get constantly from God so they wrongly conflate suffering with being punished rather than the fact that they have removed themselves from those protections against the depredations of evil.

It's like standing under an umbrella held by someone else and stepping outside the bounds of the umbrella, getting soaked in the rain, then complaining that the person holding the umbrella was punishing you for the sin of moving.

God doesn't move. His protections are about and around Him. When we leave His presence we invite evil to harm us. People who claim God is punishing sinners are in serious error. One cannot fully love the Father that beats them.
 

infowarrior1

Ostrich
This is correct. People don't realize the protection they get constantly from God so they wrongly conflate suffering with being punished rather than the fact that they have removed themselves from those protections against the depredations of evil.

It's like standing under an umbrella held by someone else and stepping outside the bounds of the umbrella, getting soaked in the rain, then complaining that the person holding the umbrella was punishing you for the sin of moving.

God doesn't move. His protections are about and around Him. When we leave His presence we invite evil to harm us. People who claim God is punishing sinners are in serious error. One cannot fully love the Father that beats them.
Relevant quote Hebrew 12:4-11. In regards to Christians in general:
4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons:

“My son, do not take lightly the discipline of the Lord,

and do not lose heart when He rebukes you.

6For the Lord disciplines the one He loves,

and He chastises every son He receives.”

7Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you do not experience discipline like everyone else, then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Furthermore, we have all had earthly fathers who disciplined us, and we respected them. Should we not much more submit to the Father of our spirits and live?

10Our fathers disciplined us for a short time as they thought best, but God disciplines us for our good, so that we may share in His holiness. 11No discipline seems enjoyable at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it yields a harvest of righteousness and peace to those who have been trained by it.
Although I do think that since the sermon is talking about the Old Testament. Israel was being punished by God in the Old Testament.(Jeremiah 9:15-16)
15Therefore this is what the LORD of Hosts, the God of Israel, says: “Behold, I will feed this people wormwood and give them poisoned water to drink. 16I will scatter them among the nations that neither they nor their fathers have known, and I will send a sword after them until I have finished them off.”
This also shows God's involvement in calling Babylon against Israel:

This is his Wrath when its too late for repentance.
 

Leonard D Neubache

Owl
Gold Member
Any Old Testament reference to God's ways and means of dealing with sinners is made redundant by Christ's sacrifice and I look sideways at any interpretation in the New Testament that insists God punishes men directly by his own hand. There cannot be a wrathful God and also a God who forgives all the sins of man through Christ's sacrifice. They are incompatible concepts.

Anyone unduly obsessed with the vengeful God of the Old Testament is in error. Infinite forgiveness is infinite forgiveness. Infinite love is infinite love. The error of believing otherwise opens a thousand cracks in the theology about why God punishes some but not others, invariably spackled over crudely with "it's part of God's plan, we cannot understand it". This error alone is responsible for driving millions of people away from Christianity and trapping millions more in a vengeful mindset where they salivate at the idea of God smiting their enemies.
 
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Any Old Testament reference to God's ways and means of dealing with sinners is made redundant by Christ's sacrifice and I look sideways at any interpretation in the New Testament that insists God punishes men directly by his own hand. There cannot be a wrathful God and also a God who forgives all the sins of man through Christ's sacrifice. They are incompatible concepts.
Well, they are incompatible only if you apply them at the same moment, to the same person in the same circumstances.
Thus, in the traditional Catholic teaching, the first "merciful, nonviolent" coming of Christ (during his lifetime on earth) will be followed at the end of the world by the second "wrathful, avenging" coming of Christ, described in the Book of Revelation.
 

Salocin

Pigeon
Any Old Testament reference to God's ways and means of dealing with sinners is made redundant by Christ's sacrifice and I look sideways at any interpretation in the New Testament that insists God punishes men directly by his own hand. There cannot be a wrathful God and also a God who forgives all the sins of man through Christ's sacrifice. They are incompatible concepts.
But how many men and women have truly repented of their sins, and surrendered to the will of God?

If the number in a given nation is very small, and it is instead full of wicked people then they have not been forgiven or saved.

God's wrath is just and righteous.
 

Leonard D Neubache

Owl
Gold Member
But how many men and women have truly repented of their sins, and surrendered to the will of God?

If the number in a given nation is very small, and it is instead full of wicked people then they have not been forgiven or saved.

God's wrath is just and righteous.
I refer you to my previous post.

...People don't realize the protection they get constantly from God so they wrongly conflate suffering with being punished rather than the fact that they have removed themselves from those protections against the depredations of evil.

It's like standing under an umbrella held by someone else and stepping outside the bounds of the umbrella, getting soaked in the rain, then complaining that the person holding the umbrella was punishing you for the sin of moving.

God doesn't move. His protections are about and around Him. When we leave His presence we invite evil to harm us. People who claim God is punishing sinners are in serious error. One cannot fully love the Father that beats them.
God does not condemn people. They condemn themselves by fleeing God.
 

Elipe

Pigeon
Any Old Testament reference to God's ways and means of dealing with sinners is made redundant by Christ's sacrifice and I look sideways at any interpretation in the New Testament that insists God punishes men directly by his own hand. There cannot be a wrathful God and also a God who forgives all the sins of man through Christ's sacrifice. They are incompatible concepts.

Anyone unduly obsessed with the vengeful God of the Old Testament is in error. Infinite forgiveness is infinite forgiveness. Infinite love is infinite love. The error of believing otherwise opens a thousand cracks in the theology about why God punishes some but not others, invariably spackled over crudely with "it's part of God's plan, we cannot understand it". This error alone is responsible for driving millions of people away from Christianity and trapping millions more in a vengeful mindset where they salivate at the idea of God smiting their enemies.
That's a good point. So much of the evil happening around us is not so much God's direct punishment as it is that God is not rescuing us from our own stupidity, sloth, and pride. We have been coddled for so long as people that we have forgotten that death is the wage of sin. Oh, we hear that from our preachers often, but I don't think we really understand what it means that sin has a wage attached to it. A wage is a payment for work done. A wage is payment for something you do. That payment can be positive or negative - one example of a positive payment is that you make money by doing productive work that others are willing to pay you for doing, and an example of a negative payment is summed up by the saying, "do the crime, do the time."

Another way of thinking about wage is that wage is a consequence. The consequence of good work is money, food on the table, happy wife and kids. The consequences of evil work can be imprisonment, hard feelings that eventually crystallize into revenge against you, a broken family. And if you're particularly savvy, you may have noticed something about the consequences of evil I just listed - they all fit the theme of alienation. Evildoing causes alienation, and doing good causes unification (good builds up, evil tears down).

Our world, as you can see, is clearly very much torn-down. And you can't really blame God, because we've all done this to ourselves. We thought we could stop caring about our families, about our tribes, our people. We thought we could just live for ourselves and damn everybody else. So now we're getting exactly that - a society where people literally do not give a damn about you as a neighbor. If a hypothetical enemy nation were to invade your neighborhood right now, who among your neighbors would stand shoulder to shoulder with you to fight off the enemy, even unto death? Or whom among them would sell you out to the invaders if they were told doing so would allow them to live?

You can't blame God for this. If you did not believe in God or His Son, then you will behave accordingly... and well, this is the world you get. A world that is one big network of consequences for bad behavior.
 
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