Government shutdown

[JayJuanGee]

I am sorry for your friend but she should have gotten a very affordable catastrophic insurance with a very high deductable for rare events like this and been fine financially. That is the insurance young and healthy people should have which prior to obamacare was very affordable for us since that demographic doesnt have high medical costs usually. Who knows how high that will be now since young healthy people will likely be subsidizing old, unheathy people with higher payments very month.

Bacon: I am all for personal responsibility; however, it seems like we should not get caught up in this blame the victim cycle of he should have done this and she should have done that. In essence, basic things, such as unexpected accidents should just be covered. The USA is amongst the richest countries in the world but regular and poor people, including many people's grandmas are suffering incredibly by this screwed up healthcare system that sucks out money and is inefficient and is only going to the drug companies and insurance companies, rather than to providing health care.

 

[NY Digital]

But Obamacare will not fix that. It's just another money sink that will bankrupt this country.

And if you pay more money for better health insurance, you deserve to get better treatment. Otherwise, what's the point?

 

[Hencredible Casanova]

Exactly. This Persian chick in SF who is a friend of an acquaintance of mine got struck by a hit and run driver while she was crossing the street. Dude hauled ass and has yet to be found. Unfortunately for her she was uninsured and has to come up with the six figure medical care expenses. In no other industrialized country would you hear of a story like that. Pretty embarrassing quite frankly.

I am sorry for your friend but she should have gotten a very affordable catastrophic insurance with a very high deductable for rare events like this and been fine financially. That is the insurance young and healthy people should have which prior to obamacare was very affordable for us since that demographic doesnt have high medical costs usually. Who knows how high that will be now since young healthy people will likely be subsidizing old, unheathy people with higher payments very month.

The scenario you're talking about where many old or unhealthy people sign up faster than young and healthy people is otherwise known in the industry as a "death spiral."

This is something the designers of the Affordable Care Act considered beforehand. That's why there will be a financial penalty imposed on those who choose not to have health care.

One key challenge is getting the word out to the public that people can now sign up for health care which ironically is being partly addressed by this high profile government shutdown.

It's hard to tell what exactly will end up happening but one thing we know for sure is that the status quo is simply unacceptable. No one should go bankrupt for illnesses that are outside of their control. Too many Americans are seeing their financial well-being and families being wrecked due to this failure of a system - unique among developed nations.

Also, no matter your ideology, the renegade faction of the Republican party is certainly to blame for this shutdown. The Affordable Care Act is the law of the land and is already in effect. It passed both houses of Congress during Obama's first term, survived a constitutional challenge at the Supreme Court, and was again validated by Obama's reelection. To now have a debate about its merits as a condition of passing an unrelated budget resolution for spending already approved by the House is yet another stark reminder that the Republican party is being held hostage by an infantile mob of sociopaths. This will no doubt come back to bite them come 2016.

 

[bacon]

I am sorry for your friend but she should have gotten a very affordable catastrophic insurance with a very high deductable for rare events like this and been fine financially. That is the insurance young and healthy people should have which prior to obamacare was very affordable for us since that demographic doesnt have high medical costs usually. Who knows how high that will be now since young healthy people will likely be subsidizing old, unheathy people with higher payments very month.

Bacon: I am all for personal responsibility; however, it seems like we should not get caught up in this blame the victim cycle of he should have done this and she should have done that. In essence, basic things, such as unexpected accidents should just be covered. The USA is amongst the richest countries in the world but regular and poor people, including many people's grandmas are suffering incredibly by this screwed up healthcare system that sucks out money and is inefficient and is only going to the drug companies and insurance companies, rather than to providing health care.

Look anyone can get into an accident at any age which is what happened to this girl. Obviously she didnt think she needed insurance since she was young and healthy well now she is fucked. She made a bad decision for not getting some 50 dollar a month high deductable plan so while I feel sorry that she was in an accident I dont feel sorry for her not thinking ahead and getting some insurance.

I do not agree that the US is a rich country simply because it has a high GDP that was once true but not anymore if you factor in the growing 17 trillion debt. This is why I do not understand this notion of people saying we are a rich country we deserve free healthcare. The young, poor and old already get free healthcare from the government but this is not enough?

Look if I was some obese diabetic I would be loving Obamacare since I stand to benefit. But I am not, I am young and healthy and now I have to pay higher insurance to susidize people like that.

 

[JayJuanGee]

There isn't a "back and forth" the polls out, right now, over and over show that the American people are strongly not in favor of Obamacare. It is just a very bad piece of legislation.

If you have polls then you should cite where those polls are from and what was the question. You are making me have to repeat in some sense. There was already a vote and Obama care was passed as legislation, and this is better said by HC:

Also, no matter your ideology, the renegade faction of the Republican party is certainly to blame for this shutdown. The Affordable Care Act is the law of the land and is already in effect. It passed both houses of Congress during Obama's first term, survived a constitutional challenge at the Supreme Court, and was again validated by Obama's reelection. To now have a debate about its merits as a condition of passing an unrelated budget resolution for spending already approved by the House is yet another stark reminder that the Republican party is being held hostage by an infantile mob of sociopaths. This will no doubt come back to bite them come 2016.

I would guess a week or so. Though it may last until the Oct. 17th deadline of dealing with extending the borrowing limit. It is all just politics.

About politics, mumbo jumbo. A week or two of shut down would be more than just it is all about politics.. A week or two of shut down would have major impacts on the US people and the world perceptions of the US.

That is one thing that I hope the American people realize, even if the liberal media doesn't point it out.

You are using buzz word which appear like you are not really thinking this through and you are just throwing out talking points about "liberal media".. Generally, the media is not liberal.. they use those kinds of buzz words on Fox news that the media is liberal... Also, earlier you used the term socialist health care or something. These ideas are not really thought through but instead are inflammatory buzz words that stifle meaningful communications about these kinds of important topics.

The "govt. will be shut down" yet there will be little to no notice for a large % of Americans. Their day to day activities will not change by the shut down. So maybe the American people will start to realize how much waste our govt. really has and how much more they can cut.

That message about the govt does not do anything to help you would be a message that the anti-government segments including the radical tea party supporters would like to be the take home message. Maybe you would be correct that having the government shut down for two weeks would not be missed? but I seem to doubt it, and the govt serves people, and those people vote.

With the out of control spending, especially since Obama has been president, I really don't know how much longer the US economy/$USD will remain strong. I have seen predictions that the bottom will fall out in 2016-2018. As Bacon posted, there are HUGE concerns for 2023.

Under Obama we borrow 41 cents of every $1 the US Federal Govt. spends. We simply cannot keep this up much longer.

I do not claim to be any pro or anti-Obama;however, your explanation seems to be quite short-sighted and attempting to suggest that Obama is the only politician who has caused the US Govt to spend money over the years. And, why debate about that while under the barrel of a metaphoric gun?

The US government has plenty of money, and the fact that the US govt has been throwing trillions at the banks shows that the US has plenty of money and should have plenty of money to maintain various social programs and services that are essential to government that private sector will not provide so we can live in a civilized society rather than merely having rich people with luxuries and no more american middle class.... do we want to live in a banana republic? I would prefer not to at least during my lifetime. Anyhow the whole situation seems to be a mess, and your comments seem to make the description of the mess more confusing rather than less confusing.

Look if I was some obese diabetic I would be loving Obamacare since I stand to benefit. But I am not, I am young and healthy and now I have to pay higher insurance to susidize people like that.

Sometimes when we are thinking about what is good for society, we have to think beyond just ourselves in the short-term. Industrialized societies should provide basics, such as medical coverage, and yes, some of us have different opinions about this. Medical care and coverage is not just personal responsibility... it's a social good that would probably also be good for US business to have a medical infrastructure in place that generally covers all people.

Basic for everyone and, yes the rich can still buy extra bonuses (if we care about that)

OH... and BTW Bacon.. .aren't you living in Mexico? Isn't it a sad state of affairs that many Americans feel that they have to travel to Mexico to get better health care? and prescriptions? We should not have to do that. We should be able to get our medial care in the USA.

 

[...]

Republican mentality:

Spend money on corporate subsidies (welfare) and wars: good

Spend money on education and health: bad


Wars and corporate welfare won't increase our success.....investing in people will. I fail to see where the media is liberal, the biggest media outlets are Fox and WSJ. If obamacare were unpopular, he would have not been reelected.

Many gov't employees are getting screwed by not getting paid (teachers, museums), while those in defense or security are still getting their paychecks. On the other hand, I'm happy that defense contractors are not getting paid.

 

[It_is_my_time]

Republican mentality:

Spend money on corporate subsidies (welfare) and wars: good

Spend money on education and health: bad


Wars and corporate welfare won't increase our success.....investing in people will. I fail to see where the media is liberal, the biggest media outlets are Fox and WSJ. If obamacare were unpopular, he would have not been reelected.

Many gov't employees are getting screwed by not getting paid (teachers, museums), while those in defense or security are still getting their paychecks. On the other hand, I'm happy that defense contractors are not getting paid.

Spending more money on ANYTHING is often a mistake when it comes to govt. spending because the govt. is so inefficient. We spend more per capita now than ever before on education and there are no results for it. Teacher unions gobbling it up, and computers doing little to add to a system where parents do not support the school and instead let their kids run wild at home.

The biggest media is the main stream media (CBS, NBC, ABC and they are liberal). To the point they don't even try to hide it at times.

Obamacare is very unpopular, but there are many uniformed voters.

You can choose your news source and time...

https://www.google.com/#q=obamacare+approval+rating+gallup

 

[It_is_my_time]

JayJuan, it would be hard for me to discuss economics with you, being you don't understand how the bond market works.

Obama spent trillions on green energy and other Democratic pet projects. We got nothing in return. If you read up about how the bond markets work you will realize the USA does not have anywhere near enough money and our time is about to run out.

 

[eradicator]

In 10 years the US will be on the level of developing countries in that it is too broke to pay for 90% of non essential workers and projects.

Either that or we default.

 

[Aliblahba]

JayJuan, it would be hard for me to discuss economics with you, being you don't understand how the bond market works.

Obama spent trillions on green energy and other Democratic pet projects. We got nothing in return. If you read up about how the bond markets work you will realize the USA does not have anywhere near enough money and our time is about to run out.

Politicians are making that last stab for cash. When the U.S. is in a civil war they'll be sitting in a chateau in France sipping brandy and laughing. The 1% will have safe passage. Normal citizens won't be allowed to leave, and those abroad forced back to suffer. Why do you think so many now are renouncing citizenship? We've been duped.

 

[JayJuanGee]

JayJuan, it would be hard for me to discuss economics with you, being you don't understand how the bond market works.

Obama spent trillions on green energy and other Democratic pet projects. We got nothing in return. If you read up about how the bond markets work you will realize the USA does not have anywhere near enough money and our time is about to run out.

Its My Time: Just b/c we have differences of opinions I see no need to try to act as if you know something that i do not, regarding some mystery bond market theory.

You are being very inconsistent in your various comments, and really your comments do not make a whole heck of a lot of sense b/c they seem to be all over the place.. and somewhat affiliated with Fox news and/or tea party talking points.. which are generally less informative and distracting rather than helpful to any meaningful discussion of relevant points.

You cannot tell me that all government spending is bad and only Obama's supposed spending had gotten the US into its debt situation. Also, you poo poo Cattle Rustler's comment that distinguishes between kinds of government spending... He specifically differentiated between policing type spending and health and welfare spending.

The end game is that the very wealthy are always trying to take money from the system through various schemes, and they like some government programs including military contractors, defense and these policing-type governmental spending in order to spend spend spend.. or take take take... and also they do like amorphous banking concepts to in order to spend and receive more bail outs from the treasurer or the fed reserve. like the ongoing printing of money that is likely going from the federal reserve to banks. However, anything related to spending money on social well-being or education and welfare or environment or labor or consumer empowerment is cut, cut, cut out of the budget.

Some of the members on this forum, including me, know a lot more than you are giving us credit, and instead of acting like you have some secret knowledge about bonds or some mystery topic maybe you should explain to our level .... and make some sense as far as tying various dynamics together.. without the distracting talking points. to try to take away from the points that we were making. Sorry, but currently, you are NOT accomplishing that kind of convincing explanation of your conclusions, but instead you are merely throwing out various buzz words and talking points that you may have learned from watching Fox news or some affiliate of fox.

There is no secret knowledge about bonds, or futures or options or derivative or some other baloney distractions.... and there is no need to revisit Obama care at this particular moment in order to make some kind of philosophical or political point about some very important dynamic that we should consider but don't understand.. Instead, let's stick to what we do know and keep the govt running and then discuss and debate these budgetary type issues that you claim to be complicated and so important and incomprehensible to us regular lay people without guns to anyone's heads

The reality is that some well-to-do people have been skimming for years off of the various federal govt systems and the tax payers and the social security and raiding the federal reserve and that is not new, and they are affiliated with both the republicans and the democrats... Well probably more actively with the republicans, but we do not need to get into that b/c I will concede that the democrats seem to let these things slide too often, but anyhow, maybe this is getting off track b/c initially, I thought that we were trying to discuss the government shut down and how long it would last and to predict it and explain it.. and in that regard, the public is likely blaming the republicans for engaging in these hostage-taking tactics to be like school bullies who are not getting their way and are a minority and want to pressure the majority into doing what they want which is to destroy a potential upcoming benefit that they are about to receive (namely obamacare).

So our discussion sort of relates to these topics.... and how the govt shut down is negatively going to affect the US credibility the longer it lasts. Actually, probably what will hurt the bond market that supposedly we forum members do not understand more than anything is when there is lack of confidence in the US govt and threats towards shut downs, which had caused a rating downgrade a couple of years ago... which I think republicans are trying to achieve further rating downgrades in order to sabotage the US's credibility. Maybe they are not doing this on purpose, but sometimes i wonder about their motives?

And, maybe if all of this keeping the govt going gets screwed up by such extreme and destructive thinking, then I am not going to be able to go bang girls abroad based on the strength of the US dollar and economic system for the next 30 years, and according to you and Bacon, I may be lucky to get a good 10 years of banging in before the whole house of cards comes falling down. In the short term, I do not think Americans are blaming democrats for this and the shut down.

By the way, since you want to put out links to quasi-irrelevant polls that ask a question about whether American's approve Obama care, I believe the various polls that you referred to are not conclusive or even in your favor.
A recent Forbes poll shows that generally 3/4 of Americans do not approve of repealing or delaying ObamaCare.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapot...rt-repealing-defunding-or-delaying-obamacare/

And even if Americans did approve repealing or delaying Obama care, that question should not be in front of us at the moment. In this regard, there are also polls that show that Americans don't agree with shutting down the govt and blame the Republicans for such shut down.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pol...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

In essence, its my time, you are spinning and skimming your data in order to show a conclusion that you want to show rather than reflecting the true sentiment of the American people in order to fabricate some quasi Fox news vision of America and the current government shut down.

 

[la_mode]

It's all political theater, good way for the high-ranking democrats/republicans to spend the last warm week or two of the year playing golf at the same country club.

 

[It_is_my_time]

I don't have time to go through all that. It isn't a "difference of opinion" when you say "the USA has plenty of money". Money or in other words, wealth, is finite. It has a limit. The USA would have plenty of wealth if we managed it well. But we don't.

There is nothing magical about the bond market. For the USA to borrow more money we have to sell treasury bonds. You can go out and buy treasury bonds yourself, though I wouldn't recommend it as the return is terrible and it is looking less likely we can pay them back.

So who is buying the treasury bonds? The central bankers. They own our debt. Who are the central bankers? Extremely wealthy and well connected private owners who can manipulate the markets to their favor by buying our debt.

So in other words, our ability to keep loaning money to pay for services is now dependent on a few rich guys who already pulled the rug out from under Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy for good reason (they had no way of repaying their debt).

Our debt per GDP is not far behind where these countries were when they had the rug pulled out from under them. And when that happens, well, go to youtube and type in "Life in Greece after austerity" and see for yourself.

 

[JayJuanGee]

I don't have time to go through all that. It isn't a "difference of opinion" when you say "the USA has plenty of money". Money or in other words, wealth, is finite. It has a limit. The USA would have plenty of wealth if we managed it well. But we don't.

There is nothing magical about the bond market. For the USA to borrow more money we have to sell treasury bonds. You can go out and buy treasury bonds yourself, though I wouldn't recommend it as the return is terrible and it is looking less likely we can pay them back.

So who is buying the treasury bonds? The central bankers. They own our debt. Who are the central bankers? Extremely wealthy and well connected private owners who can manipulate the markets to their favor by buying our debt.

So in other words, our ability to keep loaning money to pay for services is now dependent on a few rich guys who already pulled the rug out from under Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy for good reason (they had no way of repaying their debt).

Our debt per GDP is not far behind where these countries were when they had the rug pulled out from under them. And when that happens, well, go to youtube and type in "Life in Greece after austerity" and see for yourself.

Finally IIMT you are making some sense.. and I am not trying to rag on you... but we are getting closer and yes, this is not obama or some republican that is causing these shut down talking points or the underlying financial dynamics.. these are wealthy people stealing from the US people.. and their shutting down the govt is part of the staging of theatrics and acting as if the US is broke when we are not. Anyhow, you and I are not so far apart if people talk like real people about these various issues and reason rather than talking through fox news or the tea party funder talking-points.

Certainly also you and I can agree that we do not want to be treated like greece, spain, portugal or italy... and in essence these analogies to treat our debt like household debt does not apply to govt debt and especially US govt dept b/c of our unique lucky situation of having the dollar standard ... In this regard, trying to force us into austerity measures is something that was caused by wealthy people taking trillions of dollars from the treasury and the fec and then acting like we do not have money for social programs.. and many Americans see through that baloney, even though from time to time it can be very confusing for us to keep our eyes on the ever moving ball.

 

[It_is_my_time]

I don't have time to go through all that. It isn't a "difference of opinion" when you say "the USA has plenty of money". Money or in other words, wealth, is finite. It has a limit. The USA would have plenty of wealth if we managed it well. But we don't.

There is nothing magical about the bond market. For the USA to borrow more money we have to sell treasury bonds. You can go out and buy treasury bonds yourself, though I wouldn't recommend it as the return is terrible and it is looking less likely we can pay them back.

So who is buying the treasury bonds? The central bankers. They own our debt. Who are the central bankers? Extremely wealthy and well connected private owners who can manipulate the markets to their favor by buying our debt.

So in other words, our ability to keep loaning money to pay for services is now dependent on a few rich guys who already pulled the rug out from under Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy for good reason (they had no way of repaying their debt).

Our debt per GDP is not far behind where these countries were when they had the rug pulled out from under them. And when that happens, well, go to youtube and type in "Life in Greece after austerity" and see for yourself.

Finally you are making some sense.. .and yes, this is not obama or some republican.. these are wealthy people stealing from us.. and their shutting down the govt is part of the staging of theatrics and acting as if we are broke when we are not. Anyhow, we are not so far apart if people talk like real people and reason rather than talking through fox news or the tea party funder talking points.

Yes, they are wealthy people who steal from us and influence both political parties. I don't like either party. But Obama's form of taking more and more from men and giving to women is even worse than what Bush offered us.

I don't know if the Republicans would be all that much better in control or not or if their is too much influence. I think they would be a little better for us middle class men trying to get some money saved up and a chance to travel overseas. But I can't predict what they will do next.

The only presidential candidate that made any sense to me was Ron Paul and Gary Johnson. Small govt politicians who give us guys a chance to save our money and freedom to do as we please with it.

 

[Hencredible Casanova]

Mark Manson made this post on his FB page:

For the past couple years, I've seen article after article saying Millennials are self-absorbed and entitled. But I've yet to see anything about the old white douchebags who are willing to shut down the entire US government when just because they didn't get their way. How can a political party call themselves patriotic when they aren't even willing to participate in the system?

 

[It_is_my_time]

Mark Manson made this post on his FB page:

For the past couple years, I've seen article after article saying Millennials are self-absorbed and entitled. But I've yet to see anything about the old white douchebags who are willing to shut down the entire US government when just because they didn't get their way. How can a political party call themselves patriotic when they aren't even willing to participate in the system?

That is terrible. They are participating in the system. Nothing they did is illegal or unheard of in the least. It is our system and they are doing their job.

I don't know how old you are, but if you are under 35 you should be doing all you can to stop Obamacare.

 

[GameTheory]

Politicians are making that last stab for cash. When the U.S. is in a civil war they'll be sitting in a chateau in France sipping brandy and laughing. The 1% will have safe passage. Normal citizens won't be allowed to leave, and those abroad forced back to suffer. Why do you think so many now are renouncing citizenship? We've been duped.

right on, Comrade !!!

 

[la_mode]

Also, this "government mandated" healthcare is only by state (it's not nationwide - each insurance exchange has state specific politicies). Meaning, it can be used in one state, but not the next state over. It's still unclear as to how it will work when people do move, but it will probably just add confusion and there will be a whole new set of problems.

Maybe they want everyone to stay put.

The other thing, besides those who are completely on medicare/medicaid or some sort of welfare, there really are no savings, since Obamacare is "private insurance" purchased via a government veil, and ends up costing more. The average "bronze" plan (most basic plan) for a healthy 25 year old is approx. $155 per month (with slight variance by state), which would have easily been a premium plan with any insurance company before Obamacare.

So many people aren't going to be able to afford Obamacare, and no one has realized that. They will sign up, think it's free, and not be able to make the monthly payments. Which could be what the government wants.

It's not the same as what is found in Canada or most of Western Europe. Although it would have been possible to do something similar in the US, there's just no way they ever would when they knew they could fool the masses into wanting to pay more, while making it appear as if were "free", and attach the term "Obamacare" to it, as to pander to those who support it.

 

[JayJuanGee]

Yes, they are wealthy people who steal from us and influence both political parties. I don't like either party. But Obama's form of taking more and more from men and giving to women is even worse than what Bush offered us.

I don't know if the Republicans would be all that much better in control or not or if their is too much influence. I think they would be a little better for us middle class men trying to get some money saved up and a chance to travel overseas. But I can't predict what they will do next.

The only presidential candidate that made any sense to me was Ron Paul and Gary Johnson. Small govt politicians who give us guys a chance to save our money and freedom to do as we please with it.

I agree with you about saving and traveling,but it may not be a solution if the system is too screwed over.

Additionally, you are getting back into the nit-picky blaming or figuring out who will be the next best candidate for president.

Currently, The question in front of us RIGHT NOW is govt shut down.. NOT whether Obama is empowering feminists.

After we get through this particular shut down (and maybe the one or two weeks from now), then we can talk about some of these substantive issues about visions and about our preferences for future candidates.

I mean ultimately if so many of the candidates or the current office holders are beholden to money and corruption, then probably there needs to be discussion about how to get money out of politics and to get politicians to act in favor of the people rather than pursuing money-influenced agendas that end up screwing regular people.

In the short run, I do not see how it helps to shut down the govt... except to screw confidence in the USA... and unless you are saying that this maneuver of shutting the govt is a good thing b/c it is ultimately going to help the US to move more towards a Ron Paul vision of the structure of government.. well Ron Paul is NOT currently in office and not by a long shot.. and if that becomes the leadership vision in the future, then we would cross that bridge at that time and no one man can really run the show and such a person would have to work the political forces then in existence to achieve his/her vision.

Surely, I would think that RVF members are all over the board concerning their views on whether govt should be shrunk or not, and yes, I do understand that there are a lot of fairly conservative RVF members, but I do not believe that necessarily means RVF members don't recognize some value to various social govermental programs and social safety nets - whether for ourselves or for our grandparents or families that we have or may have in the future. These kinds of visions will play out in a variety of ways for RVF members and their opinions.

Ultimately, it appears that you think a govt shut down is generally NOT a bad thing, and I am inclined much differently from you b/c generally I am NOT philosophically opposed to govt and I see that govt can serve various valuable functions for the people in opposition to monied interests. Currently, many Americans seem to agree that monied interests control the government rather than the government controlling monied interests. Additionally, in the past three years, I have not been too excited about the fed govt's various widespread austerity measures and cuts that it has already been doing to screw over people, and I do not believe the solution to economic woes is cutting social programs that benefit people. and instead probably certain levels of spending would be better from my humble opinion (like Keynsian type spending in govt projects (public works) that would stimulate growth, jobs and production and have rippling effects).

Anyhow, people will differ about these kinds of views, and I believe that is why we have elections, but when we are not currently having an election, we should have governing and reasonable compromise rather than extremism. That's my opinion, and some RVF members will differ.

I don't know how old you are, but if you are under 35 you should be doing all you can to stop Obamacare.

You had some reasonable points, and then you go making these broad and destructive fox news talking point statements again... with no real backing..

Do anything to stop Obamacare means that it is o.k. to shut down the govt in order to get your way or some kind of compromise regarding Obama care.

Well, this viewpoint is just not even closely in step with what the American people want, and generally the polls show that the Americans are a little torn about Obamacare b/c they are not sure about what it is exactly but they think it is affiliated with Obama b/c it has his name in the reference (which can be misleading); however, they do not want the govt shut down b/c of it, and when you get into particulars about educating people about the many benefits of obamacare, they are generally in favor.. ... and there are probably way too many benefits to list... but there are a lot.

Certainly, we can work towards tweaking obamacare, if that is necessary, after getting passed this govt shutdown issue.

Also, this "government mandated" healthcare is only by state (it's not nationwide - each insurance exchange has state specific politicies). Meaning, it can be used in one state, but not the next state over. It's still unclear as to how it will work when people do move, but it will probably just add confusion and there will be a whole new set of problems.

Part of it seems to make sure everyone stays put, so they can track you better.

The other thing, besides those who are completely on medicare/medicaid or some sort of welfare, there really are no savings, since Obamacare is "private insurance" purchased via a government veil, and ends up costing more. The average "bronze" plan (most basic plan) for a healthy 25 year old is approx. $155 per month (with slight variance by state), which would have easily been a premium plan before Obamacare.

So many people aren't going to be able to afford Obamacare, and no one has realized that. They will sign up, think it's free, and not be able to make the monthly payments. Which could be what the government wants.

These sound like Fox news talking points that are attempting to describe a bunch of hypothetical negatives of Obamacare rather than some concrete positives that are more concrete than those negatives.

One concrete positive will probably trump a lot of the petty hypothetical concerns that still need to be worked out..
.. one positive is:
no elimination of qualifications of a person to become insured based on preexisting conditions or removal from insurance for the development of a condition which will likely result in the elimination of medical bankrupcies for thousands of people every year. It may even completely eliminate medical bankrupcies in America... that is worth implementing obamacare in and of itself... and there are more benefits that i will not list in this posting.