Have any of you given up on women?

JuanChristophorus

Sparrow
Trad Catholic
I'm noticing that when I'm out on the town and I talk to a girl, I get very few questions from them regarding myself when I make a statement. For example, I make an opening remark about the coffee shop we're in. She comments on my remark...I comment back...and this goes on until the thread exhausts itself.

I then ask something personal about her. Are you here for work/What do you do...etc. She answers me...I make a comment...she replies back to my comment. Yada yada until thread ends.
That sounds boring. Why don't you say what you have in mind? This sounds like a conversation you think you should have but not one you want. Ask her about spicy topics, say something outrageous without caring for the outcome. Similar as you'd talk to a man but not as vulgar. For example, there was a girl who wore a t-shirt of her former university (International Anthropological Institute). Then I said to her: "Ah, you went to the International Self-Castration Institute". Do you think she got offended? Maybe. But she carried on the conversation with banter back and forth. Sure, there are women who don't play along or don't share your views, but they are not worth your time.
 

Pete345

Robin
Orthodox
Best of openness to age gaps and thus femininity, in general.
Bear in mind, I am not one of those PUA dudebros and not a dating counselor. I can only tell you what I observe. Just like in the USA, if want a good wife with traditional Orthodox values, find an Orthodox country, stay away from large cities and towns, no matter which country. While the farther east you go the better your chances are, but even girls from small town Siberia are internet savvy, know what's going on the world and can hold their own. IMO, the key is more in finding the appropriate surrounding culture that you can value, which adheres to those values, and within which the girl has been raised. And then you optimally move there and live with her there, because the surrounding culture is needed to support those values long-term. The wider the age gap, the more you have to have to offer that will make her forego a younger guy. This is common sense. I don't want to discuss this anymore. The topic creeps me out.
 

rainy

Pelican
Other Christian
I'll post something which may be controversial.

Men deserve a lot of the blame for issues with women currently. While there's some serious issues/confusion with younger women nowadays, deep down they are followers looking for a rock to lean on. They are not naturally leaders. Very few gravitate in that direction.

And frankly, very few men have stepped up to the plate. Very few men have a purpose, a vision they're chasing, and can be the provider women historically want and desire.

I have seen a lot of if women do this or women do that, do away with them. That can be true to an extent but it also places the blame on the other person the large majority of the time. I look at running a family like running a business. Are you a man of faith. Do you have principle. Do you have purpose. Do you move ahead every day. Are you in shape. Do you waste time on vices. Can you provide for a wife and children. Are you financially independent. Are you organized. And that leads into:

Are you a leader who earns respect and can teach. If your wife/gf is a mess, it is similar to having employees who are a mess if you're the CEO. Ultimately, the responsibility falls at your feet. That doesn't mean there aren't bad apples you have to let go. But a great leader and CEO gets those next to him and below him to believe and live his vision. Same with having a marriage and running a household.

Not long ago I was at a networking event with a number of other small business owners and we were all sitting at the table talking. One kept whining about everything wrong with his employees. There was a successful German consultant there who while everyone else was busy feeling bad for the whining owner and relating, raised his hand and asked, well, whose fault is it? It's your company. You set the example. They follow your lead. There was dead silence.

My observation says those who have issues in the workplace usually have issues at home. Those who are great in the workplace usually have stable households.

I think it's incredibly understated that if you have your ducks in order, you can lead a woman down the right road and she will live a life aligned with your vision and purpose. I don't think it's some major hurdle to convince a woman that your path and your road is more fulfilling than repeat girls nights out and emptying bottles. Women naturally are drawn to a leader with a plan, who says this is what I'm going to do, this is where we're going, this is what I expect of you and I will be the provider. Are you on board?

I still come across men in their 20's and 30's who have it together. Confidence, ambition, a purpose, men of faith. In shape, clean, independent. They are generally in great relationships and/or there is no shortage of women swooning after them. But there is such a shortage of men like this.

If you're working a dead end job, don't have your finances in order, live with roommates, aren't in shape, vices have a hold of you, you waste time gaming and fapping, etc, then you are not going to attract success. And you will not attract a woman who will commit her life to supporting your endeavors.

Just my opinion.
 

SeaEagle

Robin
Catholic
I'll post something which may be controversial.

Men deserve a lot of the blame for issues with women currently. While there's some serious issues/confusion with younger women nowadays, deep down they are followers looking for a rock to lean on. They are not naturally leaders. Very few gravitate in that direction.

And frankly, very few men have stepped up to the plate. Very few men have a purpose, a vision they're chasing, and can be the provider women historically want and desire.

I have seen a lot of if women do this or women do that, do away with them. That can be true to an extent but it also places the blame on the other person the large majority of the time. I look at running a family like running a business. Are you a man of faith. Do you have principle. Do you have purpose. Do you move ahead every day. Are you in shape. Do you waste time on vices. Can you provide for a wife and children. Are you financially independent. Are you organized. And that leads into:

Are you a leader who earns respect and can teach. If your wife/gf is a mess, it is similar to having employees who are a mess if you're the CEO. Ultimately, the responsibility falls at your feet. That doesn't mean there aren't bad apples you have to let go. But a great leader and CEO gets those next to him and below him to believe and live his vision. Same with having a marriage and running a household.

Not long ago I was at a networking event with a number of other small business owners and we were all sitting at the table talking. One kept whining about everything wrong with his employees. There was a successful German consultant there who while everyone else was busy feeling bad for the whining owner and relating, raised his hand and asked, well, whose fault is it? It's your company. You set the example. They follow your lead. There was dead silence.

My observation says those who have issues in the workplace usually have issues at home. Those who are great in the workplace usually have stable households.

I think it's incredibly understated that if you have your ducks in order, you can lead a woman down the right road and she will live a life aligned with your vision and purpose. I don't think it's some major hurdle to convince a woman that your path and your road is more fulfilling than repeat girls nights out and emptying bottles. Women naturally are drawn to a leader with a plan, who says this is what I'm going to do, this is where we're going, this is what I expect of you and I will be the provider. Are you on board?

I still come across men in their 20's and 30's who have it together. Confidence, ambition, a purpose, men of faith. In shape, clean, independent. They are generally in great relationships and/or there is no shortage of women swooning after them. But there is such a shortage of men like this.

If you're working a dead end job, don't have your finances in order, live with roommates, aren't in shape, vices have a hold of you, you waste time gaming and fapping, etc, then you are not going to attract success. And you will not attract a woman who will commit her life to supporting your endeavors.

Just my opinion.
I somewhat agree, but this focus on "purpose" is a secular construct in my opinion. The West is making it more difficult for men to make as much as women, ie. makework govt jobs, hiring quotas. However, even a menial labour job IS enough to provide for a family. The issue is that most people want flashy consumer goods, a fancy house (that you'll never actually own), multiple cars, and other ways to ego-flex on the family next door.

A man's purpose should be fulfilling the will of God above all else. A man shouldn't have to be a breakout start-up owner or a business tycoon just to satisfy a woman. A pious woman should see through this as well.

I'm at the point where I'm hoping for adversity in the West to bring things back to a natural order. Men working to farm, grow food, protect their community, instead of working to further inflate our bursting debt bubble. Wishful thinking perhaps, but I'm quite tired of this twisted modern way of life.
 

TheosisSeeker

Robin
Orthodox Catechumen
I'll post something which may be controversial.

Men deserve a lot of the blame for issues with women currently. While there's some serious issues/confusion with younger women nowadays, deep down they are followers looking for a rock to lean on. They are not naturally leaders. Very few gravitate in that direction.

And frankly, very few men have stepped up to the plate. Very few men have a purpose, a vision they're chasing, and can be the provider women historically want and desire.

I have seen a lot of if women do this or women do that, do away with them. That can be true to an extent but it also places the blame on the other person the large majority of the time. I look at running a family like running a business. Are you a man of faith. Do you have principle. Do you have purpose. Do you move ahead every day. Are you in shape. Do you waste time on vices. Can you provide for a wife and children. Are you financially independent. Are you organized. And that leads into:

Are you a leader who earns respect and can teach. If your wife/gf is a mess, it is similar to having employees who are a mess if you're the CEO. Ultimately, the responsibility falls at your feet. That doesn't mean there aren't bad apples you have to let go. But a great leader and CEO gets those next to him and below him to believe and live his vision. Same with having a marriage and running a household.

Not long ago I was at a networking event with a number of other small business owners and we were all sitting at the table talking. One kept whining about everything wrong with his employees. There was a successful German consultant there who while everyone else was busy feeling bad for the whining owner and relating, raised his hand and asked, well, whose fault is it? It's your company. You set the example. They follow your lead. There was dead silence.

My observation says those who have issues in the workplace usually have issues at home. Those who are great in the workplace usually have stable households.

I think it's incredibly understated that if you have your ducks in order, you can lead a woman down the right road and she will live a life aligned with your vision and purpose. I don't think it's some major hurdle to convince a woman that your path and your road is more fulfilling than repeat girls nights out and emptying bottles. Women naturally are drawn to a leader with a plan, who says this is what I'm going to do, this is where we're going, this is what I expect of you and I will be the provider. Are you on board?

I still come across men in their 20's and 30's who have it together. Confidence, ambition, a purpose, men of faith. In shape, clean, independent. They are generally in great relationships and/or there is no shortage of women swooning after them. But there is such a shortage of men like this.

If you're working a dead end job, don't have your finances in order, live with roommates, aren't in shape, vices have a hold of you, you waste time gaming and fapping, etc, then you are not going to attract success. And you will not attract a woman who will commit her life to supporting your endeavors.

Just my opinion.

I agree with you, but it doesn't take into account that the female dating pool is lackluster. Not to toot my own horn, but I have many of the qualities and attributes that you describe, the sticking point is just not meeting quality women I'd trust to marry.

I tried an online dating app for the past 3 days. I got 40 or so women who 'liked' me, you know how many I'd legitimately go out with? 3 maybe 4. I just deleted the other likes.

That's why I'm always skeptical when guys say stuff like women swoon or throw themselves at them. What type of women? I wrote about this in another post. A Christian coworker 'bragged' and said 'he's never had any trouble dating' then the prideful guy started giving me 'advice', you know in a condescending manner. His wife is 300 lbs. I guess it's a gift for standards to be that low. I'm not saying that's the case with the men you know, but tons of guys are getting a terrible deal. Granted, I'm just judging on their wives or gfs looks, which is also wrong.

Maybe I'm just too picky, I don't know. Yeah I can settle down with a homely average Christian girl, but I feel like I worked too hard for that.
 

Lithuanian Bear

Sparrow
Orthodox Inquirer
I'll post something which may be controversial.

Men deserve a lot of the blame for issues with women currently. While there's some serious issues/confusion with younger women nowadays, deep down they are followers looking for a rock to lean on. They are not naturally leaders. Very few gravitate in that direction.

And frankly, very few men have stepped up to the plate. Very few men have a purpose, a vision they're chasing, and can be the provider women historically want and desire.

I have seen a lot of if women do this or women do that, do away with them. That can be true to an extent but it also places the blame on the other person the large majority of the time. I look at running a family like running a business. Are you a man of faith. Do you have principle. Do you have purpose. Do you move ahead every day. Are you in shape. Do you waste time on vices. Can you provide for a wife and children. Are you financially independent. Are you organized. And that leads into:

Are you a leader who earns respect and can teach. If your wife/gf is a mess, it is similar to having employees who are a mess if you're the CEO. Ultimately, the responsibility falls at your feet. That doesn't mean there aren't bad apples you have to let go. But a great leader and CEO gets those next to him and below him to believe and live his vision. Same with having a marriage and running a household.

Not long ago I was at a networking event with a number of other small business owners and we were all sitting at the table talking. One kept whining about everything wrong with his employees. There was a successful German consultant there who while everyone else was busy feeling bad for the whining owner and relating, raised his hand and asked, well, whose fault is it? It's your company. You set the example. They follow your lead. There was dead silence.

My observation says those who have issues in the workplace usually have issues at home. Those who are great in the workplace usually have stable households.

I think it's incredibly understated that if you have your ducks in order, you can lead a woman down the right road and she will live a life aligned with your vision and purpose. I don't think it's some major hurdle to convince a woman that your path and your road is more fulfilling than repeat girls nights out and emptying bottles. Women naturally are drawn to a leader with a plan, who says this is what I'm going to do, this is where we're going, this is what I expect of you and I will be the provider. Are you on board?

I still come across men in their 20's and 30's who have it together. Confidence, ambition, a purpose, men of faith. In shape, clean, independent. They are generally in great relationships and/or there is no shortage of women swooning after them. But there is such a shortage of men like this.

If you're working a dead end job, don't have your finances in order, live with roommates, aren't in shape, vices have a hold of you, you waste time gaming and fapping, etc, then you are not going to attract success. And you will not attract a woman who will commit her life to supporting your endeavors.

Just my opinion.
I understand where you are coming from. However The whole blaming one or the other gender for all the problems is kind of false dialectics. It is the analogy of putting two different types of ants in one bowl. Until it is shaken they get along but then an outside force shakes the container and because they don't know who created the disturbance they start blaming each other. Both sides of the genders have been subverted unbeknownst to one another. They are both responsible and yet at the same time they are not. hindsight 2020.

The social incentives created for both men and women through all kinds of laws is damaging towards both sexes. Yes we can sit here and be high and mighty talking about the so much needed moral superiority lost by men or women. It still doesnt get to the core of the issue that all of it has been manufactured though the use of propaganda on a scale never seen before. Through social reform never seen before as well. We sit here on the internet with the knowledge of the past and judge them for being fed lies since childhood. Just look at the current generations being brainwashed by the colleges and social media before our eyes. Will they blame men and women too. When the culprits sit there at the top and laugh their way straight to the bank.

Are we responsible for our actions? Should we do all that is in our power to take that responsibility back in our lives? absolutely! However we need to have discernment of what is our responsibility and what is other peoples responsibility. That's where the whole blame game begins when people start to attributing other peoples responsibilities for others or for their own. The mentality of Captain save a hoe come to mind IMO.

All a person needs to do is to Focus their attention on following God, Becoming christ like, Participating in the life of the church, reading lives of the saints and cultivating himself. No need to blame others. No need to blame females or males (Believe me it is enticing to do so. I experienced it myself the joy of it and the pain of it). God will provide you with a wife or a husband. He will definitely be ideal person for you to grow. However he will not be a perfect man or a woman. Such people do not exist on this earth. Perfection is in another life not in this one. However the person will be perfect for cultivating yourself for salvation. The relationship will be difficult and full of trials. The perfect person for growing deification and salvation to come if you choose so.

Contrast that with this dialectical process of the hot potato of the blame game.,,,,,,
 

rainy

Pelican
Other Christian
I somewhat agree, but this focus on "purpose" is a secular construct in my opinion. The West is making it more difficult for men to make as much as women, ie. makework govt jobs, hiring quotas. However, even a menial labour job IS enough to provide for a family. The issue is that most people want flashy consumer goods, a fancy house (that you'll never actually own), multiple cars, and other ways to ego-flex on the family next door.
I disagree on purpose being secular. Maybe the frequently used version attaches high earnings to it. When it comes to financial viability, I'm referring more to the baseline of handling your responsibilities as a provider for a wife and children.

Going back to purpose, I think there is an innate and spiritual baseline we all have, an inner voice. We have a lot of God given ability and potential. It is our responsibility to God to make the most of it. I don't tie that into having the latest iphone of driving a 50K car or general materialistic living. Maybe a better example is, are you creating and living the best version of yourself every day. At work, at home, as a husband, as a father, as a neighbor, as a member of the community, etc.

Any my opinion is if more men had that approach and commitment, we would see far fewer complaints about women.

My opinion also is, wasting potential is a sin. That doesn't mean potential/purpose equates to money. But it does equate to, if you're not financially stable, can't provide for your wife and give your children a platform for success, then you're not living up to your God given ability. God provided us the intellect and ingenuity to navigate the waters. To accomplish great feats. To be builders. To be leaders.

My CEO example was more figurative than literal. Maybe you're a project manager and have 3-5 people reporting to you. Or you're a foreman. Same idea applies.

One's purpose can be as an author, a coach, a teacher, a mechanic, a scientist, an architect, and on and on. It could be donating your time to a non-profit for an important cause. It may be in the house of God with no wife and children. That is fine too. By going back to the premise of this thread and giving up on women, I think it is a more than fair to ask first and foremost, are you living up to your God given ability as a man. Are your striving to be the best version of yourself. Is your own house in order before you lay blame at the feet of others.
 

TMITT

Chicken
Catholic
My opinion also is, wasting potential is a sin. That doesn't mean potential/purpose equates to money. But it does equate to, if you're not financially stable, can't provide for your wife and give your children a platform for success, then you're not living up to your God given ability. God provided us the intellect and ingenuity to navigate the waters. To accomplish great feats. To be builders. To be leaders.
If you could make hundreds of times more by creating a useless product, would you? That seems to the paradox of the current market - businesses that make a lot of money are the opposite of what brings true value - because people are too wretched to do anything about their situation. They just want that next useless thing and that's what they're willing to pay for. So, do you serve that need and make bank?

I speculate that the best businessmen are the men that can best deal with guilt, and can drown that inner voice you mention through consumption. They have to live in denial.
 

Blade Runner

Hummingbird
Orthodox
Contrast that with this dialectical process of the hot potato of the blame game.,,,,,,
Great post. The quick response to @rainy is that on average a modern woman rebels against a healthy man who leads. Period. What are you going to do, club her over the head and say, "You follow! Me good man!" The ironic way of proving the point. The fact that she's borderline obese already doesn't help, which is the point others have made here and for the last 10-30 years, however far back you would like to go.
 

rainy

Pelican
Other Christian
If you could make hundreds of times more by creating a useless product, would you?
It would depend.

On one hand I would say, I don't believe my purpose would be fulfilled by making and pushing a useless product. I would feel empty.

On the other hand, I'd say what one were to do with the profits if they went that route is meaningful. If I took the profits and used them to donate to a local church or youth group, or to fund a non profit, or to create a much more useful product which solves problems, then that would be of benefit.

But we're now getting farther and farther away from my point, which is that I see a lot of men not living up to their potential and by extent, not being desirable to women.
 

rainy

Pelican
Other Christian
Great post. The quick response to @rainy is that on average a modern woman rebels against a healthy man who leads. Period. What are you going to do, club her over the head and say, "You follow! Me good man!" The ironic way of proving the point. The fact that she's borderline obese already doesn't help, which is the point others have made here and for the last 10-30 years, however far back you would like to go.
I know a number of men in their 20's and 30's with normal wives, they stay at home, religious, have multiple children and they're not overweight.

The husbands didn't club their wives over the head, nor did they pull them out of a hat. These women exist. And there's more like them. I hope any men reading this and questioning modern women, find one of them. As they're out there.
 

TheosisSeeker

Robin
Orthodox Catechumen
What would be actionable advice beyond going to church to meet someone? I'd commit to weekly activities where there was the possibility of repeated interactions with religious women. If nothing occurs so be it, it's more to just be around them more. My church doesn't really have any, the young adults group was mainly married couples or teens. I even volunteered to host more social events and got nowhere with that. I could keep 'church hopping', but want to avoid it.

At this point I feel I may have better odds just walking around with Christian t shirts and other things and hoping a dateable women smiles so I can start a conversation.
 

grenade001

Woodpecker
Catholic
I disagree on purpose being secular. Maybe the frequently used version attaches high earnings to it. When it comes to financial viability, I'm referring more to the baseline of handling your responsibilities as a provider for a wife and children.

Going back to purpose, I think there is an innate and spiritual baseline we all have, an inner voice. We have a lot of God given ability and potential. It is our responsibility to God to make the most of it. I don't tie that into having the latest iphone of driving a 50K car or general materialistic living. Maybe a better example is, are you creating and living the best version of yourself every day. At work, at home, as a husband, as a father, as a neighbor, as a member of the community, etc.

Any my opinion is if more men had that approach and commitment, we would see far fewer complaints about women.

My opinion also is, wasting potential is a sin. That doesn't mean potential/purpose equates to money. But it does equate to, if you're not financially stable, can't provide for your wife and give your children a platform for success, then you're not living up to your God given ability. God provided us the intellect and ingenuity to navigate the waters. To accomplish great feats. To be builders. To be leaders.

My CEO example was more figurative than literal. Maybe you're a project manager and have 3-5 people reporting to you. Or you're a foreman. Same idea applies.

One's purpose can be as an author, a coach, a teacher, a mechanic, a scientist, an architect, and on and on. It could be donating your time to a non-profit for an important cause. It may be in the house of God with no wife and children. That is fine too. By going back to the premise of this thread and giving up on women, I think it is a more than fair to ask first and foremost, are you living up to your God given ability as a man. Are your striving to be the best version of yourself. Is your own house in order before you lay blame at the feet of others.

I agree with the point you put forward.

Henry Ford famously said that, to paraphrase, "quality is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking". A lot of folk will do well to remember that quote. It would also do well to remember that strong bonds take a consistent effort to develop and maintain. Even a hundred plus years ago, it took effort to cultivate those bonds.

I also observe that a lot of under-35s folk (myself included) need to direct more effort into meeting our potential and to not be despondant at the first sign of resistance.
 

vstk

Robin
Catholic
I don't think it's some major hurdle to convince a woman that your path and your road is more fulfilling than repeat girls nights out and emptying bottles.
If your plan to establish a great relationship is convincing a woman to put the partying on hold for you, I wish you a lot of luck, you may need it in the long run

If you're working a dead end job, don't have your finances in order, live with roommates, aren't in shape, vices have a hold of you, you waste time gaming and fapping, etc, then you are not going to attract success. And you will not attract a woman who will commit her life to supporting your endeavors
The wife of Warren Buffett left him for her tennis coach. Think about that.
 

rodion

Sparrow
Orthodox
I don’t think men “stepping up to the plate” should be defined as having optimised your position in usurious hell-world. People married before the 20th century, when they had God at the centre of their lives and correctly viewed marriage as a means of working out their salvific struggle.

Defining male responsibility as such is playing into open hypergamy imo, where women can watch men compete to be the most sigma-grindset hustle king before choosing who gives them the most pleasure and comfort. Of course this doesn’t excuse men just checking out of life, having no responsibility and just playing video games and smoking weed.

Theosis is the highest purpose of man, and marriage as a God ordained path toward that, where both man and woman acknowledge the reality of fallen human nature, is the goal.
 

TMITT

Chicken
Catholic
It would depend.

On one hand I would say, I don't believe my purpose would be fulfilled by making and pushing a useless product. I would feel empty.

On the other hand, I'd say what one were to do with the profits if they went that route is meaningful. If I took the profits and used them to donate to a local church or youth group, or to fund a non profit, or to create a much more useful product which solves problems, then that would be of benefit.

But we're now getting farther and farther away from my point, which is that I see a lot of men not living up to their potential and by extent, not being desirable to women.
Purpose is a hard one, but Christ did die for us to be able to live, and this is His world, so you're right, we have to make the best of it.

Are you a Protestant? There is definitely something you understand spiritually that is advanced in your way of dealing with guilt. Us Catholics are awful at this. I'm reminded of this Quaker I knew, that came from a very successful Quaker family, very good people, that gave it all up, and converted to Islam. He was full of potential and it was absolutely tragic. I guess that's the other side of the coin, a reaction to the spiritual enlightenment or something of the sort.

I don't know if it was a lack of guilt that made him convert, but it's a good example of what happens when you stretch out into the material and forget the foundation of our religion. There is certainly nothing heroic about Islam--it's a coward's religion--so it was a really hard one to swallow.
 

cosmicorbit

 
Banned
Gnostic or New Age
I'm an American, in my 30s. Had a few good relationships in the past with women from different countries then myself (Asian, Latin-American, Middle-Eastern.) Relationships are a meme in America. I bet there are decent women here and there, but I've seen the other side of it too. Some of those decent women are hellcats in secret to their husbands. Seems like men need to keep giving 110%, and receiving diminishing returns due to the subverted culture here.
 

Blade Runner

Hummingbird
Orthodox
I'm an American, in my 30s. Had a few good relationships in the past with women from different countries then myself (Asian, Latin-American, Middle-Eastern.) Relationships are a meme in America. I bet there are decent women here and there, but I've seen the other side of it too. Some of those decent women are hellcats in secret to their husbands. Seems like men need to keep giving 110%, and receiving diminishing returns due to the subverted culture here.
By meme are you getting at the fact that men are largely just an accessory, as others have stated, in women's eyes (in America)?
 
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