Hell

The Beast1

Peacock
Gold Member
While I am a Lutheran through and through, I hold some unorthodox origin stories on man.
For starters, the new testament is God's word through and through. Jesus is the path to heaven and he saves all.

Now with that out of the way, I was always deeply unsatisfied with the old testament. Genesis felt neutered in its meaning and the rest of the old testament detailing the trials and tribulations of the ancient Israelites seems like its missing stuff.

I remember Religion lessons at school. And the protestant definition of hell: the absence of reason. I kinda like that one. If Logos is the word, the love and reason: the absence of logos I guess. A place where nothing makes sense. Clownworld!
And that is my opinion as well: that this Earthly realm is hell. A farce surrounded by lies, created by a malevolent creator, to be tormented by for his pleasure. We all have a heavenly spark that yearns to be reunited with the divine and the devil is aware of that hence why every other religion in the world (with the exception of Christianity) is intentionally made to be nearly impossible for man to attain his desire to reunite with the divine so that we never escape and are returned to dust for this cycle of hell to repeat itself.

Imagine being alive before Christ and knowing the truth in your hearts and dying before the word was delivered.

100% agree. I think the presence of God will be the same in both heaven and hell. Hell is a separation from God in one sense. At the same time, the unrepentant will "be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb, ... And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name" (Revelation 14).

The difference as you said, is those in hell will feel intense torment at the presence of God while those in heaven will feel intense joy and blessedness in His presence.

This is my own reading based on the Bible and my own thoughts... what is the Orthodox point of view on this? Is God present in hell? And, what is the direct cause of their torments, as in, who inflicts the punishment? By what we are saying, it seems they inflict the punishment on themselves by their own hatred and willful rebellion, which becomes a permanent and extremely painful state.
Bring up Jesus in the presence of the atheists and you will see them become immensely uncomfortable, recoil in fear, and run away while believers listen with a smile and are relieved to be in the company of the like minded.

If we aren't being tormented with physical pain, the devil makes up fake mental pain which is probably better for the devil in the long term since mental pain is more nefarious than physical.

Is God present in hell?
Absolutely, Jesus said his kingdom is already here which means to me that God is present even in hell. Even the light of the divine shines into dark earthly hole which explains why sometimes good things can happen with evil matter.

Others can disagree with me, but I believe Earth is hell and thankfully through Jesus Christ I don't care anymore about clown world because my gift is in heaven. Simple as.
 

Lawrence87

Woodpecker
Orthodox
My moral reasoning is of course flawed, and I might be totally wrong in my views, but my instinct tells me that hell is not going to be filled with people who weren't precisely theologically correct but otherwise lived a good Christian life, or even people who through ignorance or poor judgement were a follower of a different religion, but otherwise didn't sin any greater than your average person... My sense is that it is our duty to pray for these people, and ask that God shows them mercy. I haven't really researched the topic in great depth, but I hear that prayers for the dead are extremely beneficial for them. Does that really only apply to our Orthodox brothers and sisters? Maybe God will throw a lifeline to these people based on the prayers of His servants?
 

Sword and Board

Kingfisher
I don’t believe in a Hell in the Hollywood sense. Satan reigns no kingdom and I don’t believe God desires Love out of fear of torture.

Personally, I interpret the lake of fire as a place of deletion for the unsaved. Being removed from existence is eternal.

If I were to speculate I would say the torment would come from some sort of enlightenment seeing the error of their ways , Gods love they rejected and the evil acts they committed in life before they’re extinguished.
 

The Beast1

Peacock
Gold Member
@TheBeast1
So essentially gnosticism?
Yeah pretty much and I hate admitting it because Gnostic early Christian oriented texts like the Gospel of Thomas are trash. Any gnostic texts that try to talk about Jesus, the disciples, or early Christianity as a whole I consider pagan $hit posts designed to mock and denigrate early Christians. Most of this junk was written in Alexandria which was at the time the cultural heart of the Roman and Hellenistic worlds. The pagan greek world was filed with amazingly intelligent people. Scribes and philosophers were not dumb or even midwits. To a hellenistic academic of the era, reading some of these texts probably gave them a hearty laugh. To someone less intelligent, I could see why they would be fooled.

The equivalent would be people discovering an archive of 4chan's /pol/ a thousand years from now.

Anywho, my whole unorthodox genesis theory all started with the study of an old Luther and Ethiopian bibles which lead to my interest in biblical apocrypha. To be honest, I got the answer I was looking for and felt satisfied in knowing that Jesus has come to help those of us aware of the truth to escape this factory farm realm we live in.

It also helped me reconcile certain feelings I had about the God of the old testament versus the new. I recall Abraham famously negotiating with God not to sacrifice his son. Jesus is love, an unchanging truth that is pure and holy. You wouldn't have to argue with Jesus because what he says is truth. However, there is another figure in the bible that does let you haggle with him.

Even then, we may ultimately never know the truth about why we are here. Only that we have the opportunity to escape.

I remember after learning all of this that I had a dream that I was in a festering sewer and discovered a lab of horrors beyond my wildest imagination. I remember leaving, sealing up the sewer, and telling people who came up to asking what I was doing to never go down there.

I hope my unorthodox opinion doesn't offend or push away others. For what it is worth, I'm a dilettante of a theologian and it has been awhile since my study of biblical apocrypha. I prefer to instead focus on the gift of salvation that Jesus has given us and apply his lessons in a modern world.
 
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El Draque

Kingfisher
Orthodox
I've heard people talking about the Earth being Hell, or a level of it, and felt this concept was worthy of exploration.

In my understanding Hell is a place in which God is absent, and there is no path towards redemption. So on that basis Earth is not Hell, as in the latter is eternal damnation, and separation from God is absolute. The presence of Christ on Earth, showing us that through Him we can reach salvation, would disprove this.

Yet it is also the place where God walked amongst us, and was tortured to death. The material powers on this earth, seem driven by the occult & ultimately Satanism. And since Adam & Eve, we have been in a state of Sin against God.

Is it a fallen realm, where powers of God and the Devil vie for the soul of man? Or as some would suggest, a place under the material juristinction of the Devil, in which the path to God has been shown, but ultimately until Christ's return will remain ultimately where the Devil holds sway on Earth?
 

Elipe

Pelican
I've heard people talking about the Earth being Hell, or a level of it, and felt this concept was worthy of exploration.
I consider Earth more a "taste" of Hell. A preview of what you will get for continued disobedience to God. The world sucks so that we would desire Heaven with God, because the only way to escape the suck is into the arms of God. But if you embrace the suck, then you'll end up where it sucks a whole lot more.
 

StvAce

Pigeon
'Hell' is a word with the original meaning to 'cover' or 'conceal' (concealed place). Thus, 'hell', sheol, hades, is simply the grave - the place to which you go when you die.

Several terms in Scripture have been (mis)translated as 'hell': Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus (2 Pet. 2:4). And the Scriptures talk of the Lake of Fire.

Simply put, sheol and hades are the grave - the place the dead go to (a state of non-existence). There is no knowledge or wisdom, or working, or feeling, or consciousness or suffering in 'hell' (the grave) - you're going down into silence (Psa. 115:17).

Tartarus (tartaroō) is a basically the atmosphere of the Earth - the fallen angels that sinned in Noah's day were confined to this lower realm and 'chained' (prevented from materialising fleshly bodies as they did before the flood). Spiritually, they are also in darkness, cut off from access to the Father of the lights and all the holy angels.

The Lake of Fire is called the Second Death (Rev. 21:8). Death and hell (hades) are thrown into this Lake of Fire (which symbolises eternal destruction from which there is no recovery. How can 'hell', if a real place, be thrown into this Lake of Fire? (incidentally, this is the 'fire'-symbolic of utter destruction-prepared for the devil and his angels)

Jesus Christ redeemed the world from the first death (Adamic), and will resurrect (John 5:28; Acts 24:15) all of them (the dead) that are currently in 'hell' (the grave), sheol, hades (Rev. 20:13) and give them a trial for life during the 1,000 year reign of Christ during the Millennium. Those who fail their trial (sin wilfully after being brought to a full and accurate knowledge of truth under those ideal Kingdom conditions), will be cast into the Lake of Fire (second death), with no prospect of recovery - there will be no longer any sacrifice left for sin.

Thanks.
 
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Jive Turkey

Woodpecker
Jesus Christ redeemed the world from the first death (Adamic), and will resurrect (John 5:28; Acts 24:15) all of them (the dead) that are currently in 'hell' (the grave), sheol, hades (Rev. 20:13) and give them a trial for life during the 1,000 year reign of Christ during the Millennium. Those who fail their trial (sin wilfully after being brought to a full and accurate knowledge of truth under those ideal Kingdom conditions), will be cast into the Lake of Fire (second death), with no prospect of recovery - there will be no longer any sacrifice left for sin.

Thanks.

In this interpretation is the Lake of Fire a lake of destruction or torment?
 

GodfatherPartTwo

Kingfisher
Destruction (Acts 3:23; 2 Thes. 1:9). God, being Love, does not eternally torment His creatures. Besides, the wages of sin is death - not some kind of life in eternal torment.

Revelation 14:9-11 KJV​

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10 KJV​

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 

StvAce

Pigeon

Revelation 14:9-11 KJV​

...And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever...

Revelation 20:10 KJV​

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
In Rev. 14:11 we see that it states that 'the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever'. We know that smoke ascends from where burning has taken place. Smouldering ruins of buildings that once stood in a certain place, now burned to the ground (as one example). This suggest that the memory of what happened will persist forever. These events, the destruction of Babylon the Great, will never be forgotten.

During this time some professing Christians must also suffer 'burning' in that symbolic fire - so as to be snatched (Jude 1:23) from the fire (Second Death).

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

The Great Company or multitude are of this sort (Rev 7:7, 14).

Let it be remembered that the book of Revelation is a book of many symbols. In Revelation 20:10 we recognise that the beast and the false prophet are symbolic (the torment is also symbolic). Death and hades and also thrown into this Lake of Fire - symbolically speaking. However, there may well be something, audio-visual, preserved as witness for future generations, related to the political and religious overthrow soon to come. Whatever the case, some kind of visual memorial will likely constitute the symbolic torments, so that the great lessons on why God permitted evil are never forgotten.

The devil and also those that followed him are eternally destroyed in it, and the 'smoke' (remembrance) of these things will go up forever as a reminder to the future generations of the results of sin and rebellion from God.

Think, too, of the Valley of Hinnom, where the garbage of Jerusalem was burned (including dead animals and the bodies of dead criminals - not considered worthy of burial). Although that place no longer exists, the record, memory, of that place exists and persists (its smoke) as a reminder and a symbol (of everlasting destruction) - these linger on.
 

GodfatherPartTwo

Kingfisher
In Rev. 14:11 we see that it states that 'the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever'. We know that smoke ascends from where burning has taken place. Smouldering ruins of buildings that once stood in a certain place, now burned to the ground (as one example). This suggest that the memory of what happened will persist forever. These events, the destruction of Babylon the Great, will never be forgotten.
No disrespect intended but this is just bad. Both verses in Revelation plainly state that they (the devil, his angels, their worshippers) are tormented forever in the lake of fire. You also conveniently left out the part of the verse that said "they have no rest day nor night." Why would they need rest if they were deleted/resting already?
 

The Beast1

Peacock
Gold Member
God so loved his creation that he is willing to respect their wishes to be completely separated from him.
Not even Britney Spears' father could give her that.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
For those who 'dislike' the posts, perhaps giving a reason as to why you dislike, and what you consider wrong with the Scriptural interpretation presented? Here's a :dislike: back at you.
It's because your interpretation is alien to that of the Church the Apostles planted, and represents your own individual opinion over and against the consensus of history's holiest Saints.
 

Jive Turkey

Woodpecker
What are your thoughts on people who accept Jesus but still repeatedly sin.

IE I have been praying for help to quit porn and masturbation and have made some progress, but not a ton. I also judge others, fail to love my enemy, harbor wrath in my heart at times and sin in other ways, but those are the big three for sure.

I pray about these things, but I feel like I still love my son of lust often times more than I love God. I have installed a porn blocker on my phone but recently found a way around it. I went as far as cancelling wifi and keeping my computer away from my home, but now that I have found a way around I am struggling again.

I think soon may have to get rid of my smartphone altogether. But that won't be the end of sinning altogether. Jesus died to pay the price of our sins, but it seems like the Orthodox are very adamant that habitual sinners are hellbound, and it also says (in Peter I believe) that it is worse to sin after having known Christ, than to sin in ignorance.

Looking from guidance, @Roosh @MichaelWitcoff or anyone else who knows this area.
 

Roosh

Cardinal
Orthodox
What are your thoughts on people who accept Jesus but still repeatedly sin.

IE I have been praying for help to quit porn and masturbation and have made some progress, but not a ton. I also judge others, fail to love my enemy, harbor wrath in my heart at times and sin in other ways, but those are the big three for sure.

I pray about these things, but I feel like I still love my son of lust often times more than I love God. I have installed a porn blocker on my phone but recently found a way around it. I went as far as cancelling wifi and keeping my computer away from my home, but now that I have found a way around I am struggling again.

I think soon may have to get rid of my smartphone altogether. But that won't be the end of sinning altogether. Jesus died to pay the price of our sins, but it seems like the Orthodox are very adamant that habitual sinners are hellbound, and it also says (in Peter I believe) that it is worse to sin after having known Christ, than to sin in ignorance.

Looking from guidance, @Roosh @MichaelWitcoff or anyone else who knows this area.
You could start examining the trajectory of your thoughts and behaviors that are leading to the sin. Maybe it's boredom, a certain website, certain thoughts. See if you can control the preliminary steps. Or just adding a new behavior like taking a walk outside while doing the Jesus Prayer to reduce the urge.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
What are your thoughts on people who accept Jesus but still repeatedly sin.

IE I have been praying for help to quit porn and masturbation and have made some progress, but not a ton. I also judge others, fail to love my enemy, harbor wrath in my heart at times and sin in other ways, but those are the big three for sure.

I pray about these things, but I feel like I still love my son of lust often times more than I love God. I have installed a porn blocker on my phone but recently found a way around it. I went as far as cancelling wifi and keeping my computer away from my home, but now that I have found a way around I am struggling again.

I think soon may have to get rid of my smartphone altogether. But that won't be the end of sinning altogether. Jesus died to pay the price of our sins, but it seems like the Orthodox are very adamant that habitual sinners are hellbound, and it also says (in Peter I believe) that it is worse to sin after having known Christ, than to sin in ignorance.

Looking from guidance, @Roosh @MichaelWitcoff or anyone else who knows this area.
As long as you are repentant and doing your best then remember what King David wrote in the Psalms: "My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise." It is the recognition of our own sin that keeps us humble and makes us realize how much we depend on God for whatever insufficient level of sanctity each of us possesses in the first place. Further, I agree with what Roosh said: the action itself is the end of a chain of events, thoughts, and feelings. The key to this is to begin recognizing the stirrings of sin, praying through them before they reach the level of action. Our Saints and Fathers described intrusive thoughts of "logismoi" and they can be stopped at each successive stage before action, if you are vigilant and watchful. It sounds like what you are attempting to do is a self-imposed behavior modification; I absolutely support that and encourage you to continue, but do realize that it's the inner movement towards sin that is the real root of the problem. Behavior modification can help, but it only manages symptoms; the real disease is a lack of regeneration and grace in the soul. Once you overcome that (or rather, God overcomes it on your behalf) then the things tempting you now will not even appear attractive anymore. I highly recommend the book "Victory in the Unseen Warfare," by Father Jack Sparks, to point you in the right direction. May God bless and guide you!
 
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