Hitler's first speech as Chancellor of Germany in 1933.

I'm interested to see more evidence of how Hitler, high-ranking Nazis, and the NSDAP viewed Christianity. I get that Mean Mr. Moustache and his buddies are the ultimate hot potato that no one wants to be associated with, but I don't think Christians should be threatened by looking into this. For one thing, even if you accept the laughable idea that Hitler was some kind of unique evil who was somehow greater than all other evils, I don't think anyone is claiming he was some kind of devout Catholic who was regularly attending mass. Even if he were, one bad egg would hardly prove Catholicism or Christianity wrong, but he wasn't. Maybe he had some innate respect for Christianity, although from what I know of the man and his views this seems unlikely. It seems much more likely that he accepted that most of his people were Christian an that, like it or not, he had to work with that. Much like Stalin, who loathed Christianity to the point that he had a cathedral blown up because it bothered him that he could see it from his office window but still didn't quite feel confident enough to completely suppress the Orthodox church in the USSR.

The stuff about the Nazis being anti-Christians into dark pagan mysticism or leaning toward Islam because of its supposed martial characteristics seems plausible to me. After all, they idealized the great Germanic Nordic fighting spirit (or whatever), and the early Muslims caliphs were great adventure conquerors like Hitler, so it wouldn't be surprising if he admired them. That said, I don't know much about any of that. It would fascinating to hear about from those who do.
Well said.

I pretty much agree with everything stated there. Despite all the emphasis on ideology in later times, pragmatism was likely the most important factor in their decision making

Besides the Nazis didn't have core scripture like the communists did for example - referring to the early works Marx, Engels, Bernstein etc here. Meaning that their ideology was more fluid and moldable.

I remember reading transcripts of top ideologues and Party officials on the importance of Christianity. I'll try to find it later today
 

bucky

Pelican
Heh. You can never go wrong with Norm McDonald. Although, to be fair to Hitler...because who wouldn't want to be fair to Hitler...his style of public speaking probably went out of style right around when he put a bullet in his head and has yet to recover. Much like the toothbrush mustache and the name Adolph itself.
 
I read a bit of Mein Kampf (still getting through it). Hitler says that he’s on the side of God. He also says he went to Catholic school as a boy and during his childhood he wanted to be a priest. He also says later that he’s a non-denominational Christian, and that denominational Christians are too nit picky about what it means to be a Christian and they’re overbearing with what he seems to think are artificial differences. He thought the teachers at his Catholic school were obsessive and mean about meaningless doctrine and such.
 

Athanasius

Kingfisher
Hitler spoke to Christianity in a generally positive fashion because most Germans were Christian, but he never was one and was far more devoted to Nietzsche and Wagner. Toland claimed he dabbled in the occult. The Nazi view of Christianity was warped. This article seems an adequate summary: --> link.

It seemed like the History Channel a generation ago had about 10 shows on Nazi connection to the occult- maybe it was the same one over and over again. Also, in Libido Dominandi, EMJ notes, I believe quoting "The Pink Swastika," that Nazi leadership was almost exclusively homosexual, and struggles in the Weimar Republic during the '20s amounted to war between two groups of homosexuals: the "butch" faction under SA leader Ernst Roehm, and the "femmes" under Magnus Hirschfeld.
 
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Hitler spoke to Christianity in a generally positive fashion because most Germans were Christian, but he never was one and was far more devoted to Nietzsche and Wagner. Toland claimed he dabbled in the occult. The Nazi view of Christianity was warped. This article seems an adequate summary: --> link.

It seemed like the History Channel a generation ago had about 10 shows on Nazi connection to the occult- maybe it was the same one over and over again. Also, in Libido Dominandi, EMJ notes, I believe quoting "The Pink Swastika," that Nazi leadership was almost exclusively homosexual, and struggles in the Weimar Republic during the '20s amounted to war between two groups of homosexuals: the "butch" faction under SA leader Ernst Roehm, and the "femmes" under Magnus Hirschfeld.
Sounds like a reason to start reading Logos Rising!
 
Hitler spoke to Christianity in a generally positive fashion because most Germans were Christian, but he never was one and was far more devoted to Nietzsche and Wagner. Toland claimed he dabbled in the occult. The Nazi view of Christianity was warped. This article seems an adequate summary: --> li
nk
.

It seemed like the History Channel a generation ago had about 10 shows on Nazi connection to the occult- maybe it was the same one over and over again. Also, in Libido Dominandi, EMJ notes, I believe quoting "The Pink Swastika," that Nazi leadership was almost exclusively homosexual, and struggles in the Weimar Republic during the '20s amounted to war between two groups of homosexuals: the "butch" faction under SA leader Ernst Roehm, and the "femmes" under Magnus Hirschfeld.
Any evidence for this very bold statement that nearly entire leadership of the Nazis was homosexual?

These allegations read very much as post war outside character assassination of the main leaders in Nazi Germany. Fits right in the 'rumours' that Adolf Hitler was partly Jewish himself, that he was impotent, that lost his reproductive organs in WW1, that he had the upper part of his skull blown of during WW1 and therefore became a bit edgy, that he was a covert pedophile etc etc

You get the drift, total garbage

I also fail to see the link between the 'struggles' in the Weimar Republic and your assertion that the entire Nazi leadership was gay

For your information, Magnus Hirschfeld died in 1935 and his books and works were later burnt during the bookburnings. He was never a member of the NSDAP nor did he at any time show sympathy. Ernst Röhm was assassinated in 1935 during the Night of the Long Knives because of an ordinary SturmAbteilung/ SchutzStaffel power struggle

He was slandered afterwards by being called
1. A traitor because he presumably was in contact with French authorities to orchestrate a French-British takeover (likely BS)
2. A homosexual because he presumably preyed on young SA cadets (could be true, could also be pure slander)
3. A covert Marxist. The SA were often called 'steaks' by the ideologically pure SS. Steaks are brown on the outside (the color of the Nazi party uniform in the 30s) and red on the inside

Why you mention these two as proof of deep rooted gay tendencies amongst Nazi leaders is something I don't understand


Furthermore do you have any evidence for the allegation that Hitler 'dabbled in the occult'? I can't check the link because it doesn't work
 
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Athanasius

Kingfisher
Any evidence for this very bold statement that nearly entire leadership of the Nazis was homosexual?

These allegations read very much as post war outside character assassination of the main leaders in Nazi Germany. Fits right in the 'rumours' that Adolf Hitler was partly Jewish himself, that he was impotent, that lost his reproductive organs in WW1, that he had the upper part of his skull blown of during WW1 and therefore became a bit edgy, that he was a covert pedophile etc etc

You get the drift, total garbage

I also fail to see the link between the 'struggles' in the Weimar Republic and your assertion that the entire Nazi leadership was gay

For your information, Magnus Hirschfeld died in 1935 and his books and works were later burnt during the bookburnings. He was never a member of the NSDAP nor did he at any time show sympathy. Ernst Röhm was assassinated in 1935 during the Night of the Long Knives because of an ordinary SturmAbteilung/ SchutzStaffel power struggle

He was slandered afterwards by being called
1. A traitor because he presumably was in contact with French authorities to orchestrate a French-British takeover (likely BS)
2. A homosexual because he presumably preyed on young SA cadets (could be true, could also be pure slander)
3. A covert Marxist. The SA were often called 'steaks' by the ideologically pure SS. Steaks are brown on the outside (the color of the Nazi party uniform in the 30s) and red on the inside

Why you mention these two as proof of deep rooted gay tendencies amongst Nazi leaders is something I don't understand


Furthermore do you have any evidence for the allegation that Hitler 'dabbled in the occult'? I can't check the link because it doesn't work
I said earlier it was in Toland's biography as well as at least one but seemingly multiple History Channel biographies. The assertion of significant Nazi homosexuality comes from "The Pink Swastika." I do not know their sources. The religion link to Infogalactic works for me so not sure what to say there. It's Vox Day's wikipedia fork.

I didn't say Hirschfeld was a Nazi. He was a homosexual advocate the Nazis used as their real-life Emmanuel Goldstein. However, Jones was making the point that the argument between men like Roehm and Hirschfeld during late Weimar was not a heterosexual/homosexual battle but one between two homosexual factions. And that as a man who counselled violators of Paragraph 175, MH had dirt on the Nazi leadership. Jones speaks about it at some length in Libido Dominandi. He also said "Hitler, according to Igra, was a homosexual prostitute in Vienna. The Nazis were also notoriously homosexual, so much so that Mussolini was scandalized by their behavior." I don't have the book with me now to speak to its sources.
 
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Geomann180

Ostrich
Gold Member
Hitler spoke to Christianity in a generally positive fashion because most Germans were Christian, but he never was one and was far more devoted to Nietzsche and Wagner. Toland claimed he dabbled in the occult. The Nazi view of Christianity was warped. This article seems an adequate summary: --> link.

It seemed like the History Channel a generation ago had about 10 shows on Nazi connection to the occult- maybe it was the same one over and over again. Also, in Libido Dominandi, EMJ notes, I believe quoting "The Pink Swastika," that Nazi leadership was almost exclusively homosexual, and struggles in the Weimar Republic during the '20s amounted to war between two groups of homosexuals: the "butch" faction under SA leader Ernst Roehm, and the "femmes" under Magnus Hirschfeld.
What?

Ernst Roehm was executed during the Night of the Long Knives and Magnus Hirschfeld's books were burned in the book burnings along other pornographic, pedo, degenerate trash peddled as the latest in science.

I hardly think the History Channel is the end all be all of a source on history of that specific time period. It's the same channel now is now famous for the "Aliens" guy who looked he got really high and then electrified and shows ice truckers and deep water crabfishing because that's all historical somehow.

G
 
I said earlier it was in Toland's biography as well as at least one but seemingly multiple History Channel biographies. The assertion of significant Nazi homosexuality comes from "The Pink Swastika." I do not know their sources. The religion link to Infogalactic works for me so not sure what to say there. It's Vox Day's wikipedia fork.

I didn't say Hirschfeld was a Nazi. He was a homosexual advocate the Nazis used as their real-life Emmanuel Goldstein. However, Jones was making the point that the argument between men like Roehm and Hirschfeld during late Weimar was not a heterosexual/homosexual battle but one between two homosexual factions. And that as a man who counselled violators of Paragraph 175, MH had dirt on the Nazi leadership. Jones speaks about it at some length in Libido Dominandi. He also said "Hitler, according to Igra, was a homosexual prostitute in Vienna. The Nazis were also notoriously homosexual, so much so that Mussolini was scandalized by their behavior." I don't have the book with me now to speak to its sources.
*Frequently ranted against the degenerate and devious nature of homosexuality
*Figuretively burnt degenerate homosexual literature and pseudoscience during the bookburnings
*Sharpened the existing and somewhat ambigue 1880 anti-gay laws in 1935
*Closed down the gaybars and venues where homosexuals would meet in 1933
*Started rounding up gays as the 30s progressed. Detainees would be held in the much feared KonzentrationsLagers.
*SS would use gays for target practice and medical experiments (how to cure their gay nature)
*Forced gays in KLs to wear the pink triangle as a way to dehumanise them
*Kill 60000-100000 homosexuals with some sources stating the number might be well over 100k

Some random dude 75 years later: 'the nazis were gay maaaaan. Look here it's on the Internet!'

images (3).jpeg

Being gay in nazi Germany. The goodlife!


In all seriousness: you are extremely far off here. You haven't provided a single shred off evidence and instead keep referring to secundar, biased sources that quite frankly noone takes seriously

This seems to be a case of choosing to believe something on the basis of personal preference/aversion despite there being no actual evidence to do so
 
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Athanasius

Kingfisher
No one takes E Michael Jones seriously? A lot of this board does. His Libido Dominandi (published late 90s) has been my main source of quotation that seems to have set you off.

The late John Toland is one of the most respected Hitler biographers out there. Toland didn't think, btw, that Hitler was a heavy occultist, but that he was superstitious and inclined to such practice. There's disagreement among historians on the topic. Himmler and Hess as I recall were a different story and much more involved in it. I've never read a source claiming Hitler was an orthodox Christian.

Pink Swastika was published in 1995, to outrage from the "gay community." I have not read the book and do not know if it's true. I just noted that in Libido Dominandi, E Michael Jones uses it as a source. BTW, Jones didn't deny that homosexuals were persecuted, either. One of the things that swept the Nazis to power was the reaction to Weimar.

The History Channel, before it got into aliens or whatever other nonsense it is showing now, used to be termed the Hitler Channel because almost everything it showed was Nazi biographies.
 
The Reich Concordat, I think, shows how Hitler felt about religion. He made a deal with the Roman Catholic Church - if the priests didn't speak out against his policies, he would allow Roman Catholicism in Germany. And why did he need the priests to not speak out against the Nazis? Because he knew parts of his ideology went against Christianity.
Religious Views of Adolf Hitler on wikipedia (I know, I know) gives a lot more info with plenty of book citations. Long story short, the Nazis were fine with the Church if they could control it.
 

STG

Sparrow
Explain yourself please
I don't think most of Mein Kampf is compatible with Christianity. This is also why Nazi Germany moved towards paganism, as the "equality" parts of Christianity and nurture over nature is incompatible with the racial hierarchy theory.

From Mein Kampf:

The most obvious example of this truth is furnished by that race which has been, and still is, the standard-bearer of human progress: I mean the Aryan race. As soon as Fate brings them face to face with special circumstances their powers begin to develop progressively and to be manifested in tangible form. The characteristic cultures which they create under such circumstances are almost always conditioned by the soil, the climate and the people they subjugate. The last factor--that of the character of the people--is the most decisive one. The more primitive the technical conditions under which the civilizing activity takes place, the more necessary is the existence of manual labour which can be organized and employed so as to take the place of mechanical power.

Had it not been possible for them to employ members of the inferior race which they conquered, the Aryans would never have been in a position to take the first steps on the road which led them to a later type of culture; just as, without the help of certain suitable animals which they were able to tame, they would never have come to the invention of mechanical power which has subsequently enabled them to do without these beasts. The phrase, 'The Moor has accomplished his function, so let him now depart', has, unfortunately, a profound application. For thousands of years the horse has been the faithful servant of man and has helped him to lay the foundations of human progress, but now motor power has dispensed with the use of the horse. In a few years to come the use of the horse will cease entirely; and yet without its collaboration man could scarcely have come to the stage of development which he has now created.

For the establishment of superior types of civilization the members of inferior races formed one of the most essential pre-requisites. They alone could supply the lack of mechanical means without which no progress is possible. It is certain that the first stages of human civilization were not based so much on the use of tame animals as on the employment of human beings who were members of an inferior race.

Only after subjugated races were employed as slaves was a similar fate allotted to animals, and not vice versa, as some people would have us believe. At first it was the conquered enemy who had to draw the plough and only afterwards did the ox and horse take his place. Nobody else but puling pacifists can consider this fact as a sign of human degradation. Such people fail to recognize that this evolution had to take place in order that man might reach that degree of civilization which these apostles now exploit in an attempt to make the world pay attention to their rigmarole.

The progress of mankind may be compared to the process of ascending an infinite ladder. One does not reach the higher level without first having climbed the lower rungs. The Aryan therefore had to take that road which his sense of reality pointed out to him and not that which the modern pacifist dreams of. The path of reality is, however, difficult and hard to tread; yet it is the only one which finally leads to the goal where the others envisage mankind in their dreams. But the real truth is that those dreamers help only to lead man away from his goal rather than towards it.
 
No one takes E Michael Jones seriously? A lot of this board does. His Libido Dominandi (published late 90s) has been my main source of quotation that seems to have set you off.

The late John Toland is one of the most respected Hitler biographers out there. Toland didn't think, btw, that Hitler was a heavy occultist, but that he was superstitious and inclined to such practice. There's disagreement among historians on the topic. Himmler and Hess as I recall were a different story and much more involved in it. I've never read a source claiming Hitler was an orthodox Christian.

Pink Swastika was published in 1995, to outrage from the "gay community." I have not read the book and do not know if it's true. I just noted that in Libido Dominandi, E Michael Jones uses it as a source. BTW, Jones didn't deny that homosexuals were persecuted, either. One of the things that swept the Nazis to power was the reaction to Weimar.

The History Channel, before it got into aliens or whatever other nonsense it is showing now, used to be termed the Hitler Channel because almost everything it showed was Nazi biographies.
I'd like to see some actual evidence instead of far fetched theories, half-truths and appeals to authority. I honestly do not know who E. Michael Jones is. Had to look him up and it seems that he is quite an obscure person, and not a historian anyway. Why do his words matter so much to you if I may ask?

The Pink Swastika book is an example of modern historiography, unfortunately. It has very little ot do with truth seeking or upholding other laudable principles.

In its essence it's 1. ignoring a wide variety of evidence that points into a certain direction that the author doesn't want to guide his hypothesis to, and 2. very eagerly cherry picking a few isolated cases out that point at the opposite direction. Sew the story together and to the layman it will have the facade of being water proof.

This practice is all too common in historiography and it unfortunately has spread to the exact sciences as well

Honestly, this butch-femme stuff reads like some weird fictional gay fetish.

Just because someone wrote a poorly thought through assertion in a book doesn't mean it's historiography or historically correct. Doesn't matter how well written it is, and how convincing it sounds. You gotta have something to back it up.

If not it's just sensationalistic, fact free and sales-based nonsense

For once I agree with the gays. Saying stuff like this is akin to saying that the nazis didn't have a problem with the Jews because Reinhard Heydrich was 1/4 Jewish and Hitler had a Jewish doctor (Eduard Bloch) who was in his inner circle of trusted people.


About Hitler's religious beliefs: noone really knows. On several occasions he has paid lip services to his Christian roots but the visual lack of convictions spurned the debate

Unfortunately it has gotten a political side as well in recent years. Every criticism of Muslim aggression is countered with 'but Hitler..'. Every pro Christian comment to atheists/secularists is countered with 'but Hitler..'

He probably was just not that into any type of religion. His religion was his country and his people
 
I don't think most of Mein Kampf is compatible with Christianity. This is also why Nazi Germany moved towards paganism, as the "equality" parts of Christianity and nurture over nature is incompatible with the racial hierarchy theory.

From Mein Kampf:
I agree with the first part. But neither are other political systems like communism, industrial - capitalism or liberalism

Mein Kampf had about as much to do with Nazi Germany as the Bible has to do with present day Christianity

Far less than you'd expect

It's more about context and circumstances than scripture

An example: Christianity is an egalitarian religion, but Christian states are far from egalitarian. Slavs were regarded as Untermenschen yet the Ukrainians, Slowakians, Croatians fought side by side with the Germans on the East front

I agree that the Nazis looked at Christianity from a position of strength. In the 20s and 30s the Church had lost much of its political and societal power already and anti-clerical and nationalist tendencies ran strong. The Church, or the religion-over-state type of people were in no position to pose a real threat to the Nazis

So their attitude was along the lines of: how can Christianity help us pursue our goals? What do we have to change in Christianity to make it more compatible to our system?

And not along the lines of 'we have to be careful with the Church because they can be a competitor for power one day'

Also please show me how 'nazi Germany moved towards paganism'
 

Goni

Sparrow
"Hitler was a homosexual prostitute in Vienna"


Loool my man....

Hitler might have been very well an alien brought from Mars.

I laughed so much with this.
 

Athanasius

Kingfisher
Jones is a staunch Catholic and editor of Culture Wars magazine. He has a PhD, I think (someone else can confirm) in Literature. Roosh knows him and just interviewed him recently. Jones has written a number of interesting and influential books like Libido Dominandi, which is a history about how sexual liberation has been used since the French Revolution to bring about social and political control.
 
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Aboulia

Sparrow
I'd like to see some actual evidence instead of far fetched theories, half-truths and appeals to authority. I honestly do not know who E. Michael Jones is. Had to look him up and it seems that he is quite an obscure person, and not a historian anyway. Why do his words matter so much to you if I may ask?

The Pink Swastika book is an example of modern historiography, unfortunately. It has very little ot do with truth seeking or upholding other laudable principles.

In its essence it's 1. ignoring a wide variety of evidence that points into a certain direction that the author doesn't want to guide his hypothesis to, and 2. very eagerly cherry picking a few isolated cases out that point at the opposite direction. Sew the story together and to the layman it will have the facade of being water proof.

This practice is all too common in historiography and it unfortunately has spread to the exact sciences as well
That's is EMJ's writing in a nutshell, for example: For example when he mentions Nietzsche, he outright dismisses him because he got syphilis, and since syphilis in late stages effects the brain, he doesn't have to address Nietzsche's ideas. EMJ does write entertaining books though, and you can get some interesting additional reading since he takes the time to cite his sources.

I don't think most of Mein Kampf is compatible with Christianity. This is also why Nazi Germany moved towards paganism, as the "equality" parts of Christianity and nurture over nature is incompatible with the racial hierarchy theory.
Remember that you cannot divorce the writings from the time period. Hitler wrote this when colonialism was wide spread, and when the dissolving doctrines of Marxism were being disseminated. There is a large chunk written there to counter Marxism, and if you consider the Brits were Christian, there is nothing that he wrote in Mein Kampf to suggest that he wasn't Christian for the time period.

Would his beliefs be "Christian" in a modern sense? No, because modernity has accepted the Marxist frame that ethnic group doesn't matter, and people are basically interchangable. Hitler was fighting against that idea, but took it too far. The ethnic group has it's place, and shared culture is required for a peaceful harmonious life, the problem is when groups subjugate others.

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