Holocaust fact finding thread

[Truth Teller]

People weren't just registered locally, but also nationally in state capitals. So the same person appeared in numerous records in many different places throughout the course of many years. So if you can't find them in record x, you will still find them in record y, or record z.

Most E. European Jews weren't.

https://www.yadvashem.org/archive/hall-of-names/database/faq.html

 

[Mercenary]

People weren't just registered locally, but also nationally in state capitals. So the same person appeared in numerous records in many different places throughout the course of many years. So if you can't find them in record x, you will still find them in record y, or record z.

Most E. European Jews weren't.

https://www.yadvashem.org/archive/hall-of-names/database/faq.html

That FAQ does not back up what you are claiming, not does it disprove what I'm saying.


It is common that you will not find any evidence that someone was killed from 1933 to 1945 in europe. (Or later if they were killed in russian soviet gulags)

However, you will always find some evidence that a real physical person existed in a certain place in europe sometime between the mid to late 1930s in archives/books/records/paper trails before WW2 started.

The idea that there is ZERO trace of a person (over age 6) who lived somewhere legally in 1930s europe is ludicrous.
There is always some sort of evidence to be found for the existence of a person from that time.

 

[TooFineAPoint]

the official holocaust name databases that exist only reach 4 and half million names at most.

None the less, if the vast left-wing conspiracy's major argument is a numbers thing, between 4.5 and 6 million, thats a little much. Just let them have their 6 if that's the case. Tie goes to the runner.

I'll engage in some angels dancing on the head of a pin, Aquinas style.

Point: As if 4 vs 6 million makes a difference, either way it is sick butchery and must never be allowed to happen again!

Counterpoint: If it WAS 4, and yet you continue to say 6 million instead, and constantly browbeat and shut-down those who want clarification... why is that? Obviously 4 million people killed systematically is a horrible thing. What is the purpose of jigging up the number even higher (and then brooking no discussion)?

 

[Truth Teller]

That FAQ does not back up what you are claiming, not does it disprove what I'm saying.

It is common that you will not find any evidence that someone was killed from 1933 to 1945 in europe. (Or later if they were killed in russian soviet gulags)

However, you will always find some evidence that a real physical person existed in a certain place in europe sometime between the mid to late 1930s in archives/books/records/paper trails before WW2 started.

The idea that there is ZERO trace of a person (over age 6) who lived somewhere legally in 1930s europe is ludicrous.
There is always some sort of evidence to be found for the existence of a person from that time.

I thought it would answer some of your questions about the difficulties of establishing an exhaustive list of names.

 

[Kona]

the official holocaust name databases that exist only reach 4 and half million names at most.

None the less, if the vast left-wing conspiracy's major argument is a numbers thing, between 4.5 and 6 million, thats a little much. Just let them have their 6 if that's the case. Tie goes to the runner.

I'll engage in some angels dancing on the head of a pin, Aquinas style.

Point: As if 4 vs 6 million makes a difference, either way it is sick butchery and must never be allowed to happen again!

Counterpoint: If it WAS 4, and yet you continue to say 6 million instead, and constantly browbeat and shut-down those who want clarification... why is that? Obviously 4 million people killed systematically is a horrible thing. What is the purpose of jigging up the number even higher (and then brooking no discussion)?

What you just wrote here was exactly what I was trying to say. Minus the pin head Aquarius stuff, as I don't know what the hell that means.

Let's not deny bad shit happened. But they don't come out and try to force in on you that 50k people died in 9/11, they got an accurate number. Why do it with this Holocaust.

Aloha!

 

[Duke Castile]

More shut up and just accept that 6 million jews died because why else would this event get named “The Holocaust” if it weren’t for such a large number.

Truth Teller, How can you just expect people to accept that because it’s tedious to identify these people that everyone should just shut up and say “6 million jews died”?

I’m with Mercenary and I’m sorry for that fellow up there who lost his distant relatives but this number that get bandied about is made up to push and agenda the same way 1 in 4 women in college will be raped pushes an agenda.

 

[Truth Teller]

Truth Teller, How can you just expect people to accept that because it’s tedious to identify these people that everyone should just shut up and say “6 million jews died”?

I don't. If you look at the FAQ I provided, it says the death toll is determined via pre-war vs. post-war censes and known deportation numbers.

Identifying dead is incredibly tedious in the best of times. Hell, there are still unknown war dead from Korea.

 

[Teedub]

I thought they were proud of what they were doing!

They were, but they knew the outside world (and Germans in general) wouldn't agree. Do you want some quotes and testimonials, or would you just dismiss them as made up?

Even if the Holocaust happened what makes it more tragic than the innumerable genocides that have occured throughout history?

It isn't. It just happened in Europe in living memory. The same way we care more when 20 kids are blown up in England in a concert hall compared to 200 in Afghanistan. It's closer to home. Plus, Jewish people have a lot of power in Hollywood etc.

Truth Teller, if I were you, I'd stop wasting your time. There's certain people in this thread (not necessarily just recently, go back to page 1) and on others like it who will never, ever be convinced about gas chambers and stuff—acknowledging any of it would mean shifting their worldview more than their egos(?) can handle. I've tried, using first hand testimonials etc and they just wave it away as "fabricated" or "taken under duress". I'm not talking about guys like Merc and Fisto here by the way...it's obvious who I'm referring to.

I've dipped my toes into the alt right-proper (the ideology to which these people subscribe to) over the past year and a lot of it is nasty stuff, with a lot of people who are adept at "hiding their power level" (I.E. Not saying what they really, truly, believe). Mark Collett comes to mind (I've posted a few of his videos, he's a bright guy, but he's also at the very least a Nazi sympathiser - his girlfriend has a swastika on her chest for god's sake). I agree with Roosh and Aurini, it's not a good place. That's not to say I disagree with everything they talk about - Millennial Woes makes great videos, though again, I'm not on board with much of it. Anyway, I'm out.

 

[Duke Castile]

Truth Teller, How can you just expect people to accept that because it’s tedious to identify these people that everyone should just shut up and say “6 million jews died”?

I don't. If you look at the FAQ I provided, it says the death toll is determined via pre-war vs. post-war censes and known deportation numbers.

Identifying dead is incredibly tedious in the best of times. Hell, there are still unknown war dead from Korea.

Except Koreans already had a country.

Jews used this event to carve out Israel for themselves so it seems to me the reasons should be legitimate.

I’m sure you aren’t crazy about the US being suckered into wars like Iraq for WMDs that “experts” said existed but didn’t.

This is why your responses irk me. You dismiss accurate death tolls requests because they’re “difficult” while also trying to shut down the discussion with “you’re foolish for not trusting the experts”.

I thought historians were all about creating areas of expertise but none seem interested in tracking down the real number of dead?

Wouldn’t that be a great Doctoral Thesis or whatever Ph.d guys do to be “experts”?

 

[Teedub]

If you are suggesting that the Holocaust was a hoax, then you are suggesting that thousands of American, Canadian and British soldiers from the war are all liars.

I'd be interested to know if any of the deniers on this forum have ever met a holocaust survivor? Well I have, and he told me he believed that the 6 million figure was for the total number of holocaust victims, NOT the total number of Jews. He estimated it was around 3-4 million Jews and the rest were mostly just Slavs. The disabled and gypsies only made up a small number of the murders.

The post quoted is from the first page of the thread, just before the "neo-nazi weirdos", as I call them on Truth Teller's rep point, got involved. This is what I believe, and I suspect this figure is what guys like Fisto etc believe also.

 

[Truth Teller]

This is why your responses irk me. You dismiss accurate death tolls requests because they’re “difficult” while also trying to shut down the discussion with “you’re foolish for not trusting the experts”.

I thought historians were all about creating areas of expertise but none seem interested in tracking down the real number of dead?

Wouldn’t that be a great Doctoral Thesis or whatever Ph.d guys do to be “experts”?

It's been done multiple times. There are multiple books determining the number of dead. I can name three or four of them.

There are accurate numbers of the dead, you're misrepresenting my view.

 

[Duke Castile]

Teedub- That is exactly right and I think I’m done with this too for the time being.

 

[Teedub]

Aye to that, me also.

 

[bws8118]

I bet all these denialists and truthers would shit themsleves if you questioned them in person. It's easy to talk shit behind a key board like some of you guys on here. What is there to debate about the Holocaust? Ah yes, it was a Jewish conspiracy to create Israel....

 

[Tribunus]

Jews used this event to carve out Israel for themselves so it seems to me the reasons should be legitimate.

The Jews were already well on the path of creating a state by the time the holocaust started. And after the war it was only a matter of time until the UK withdrew from Mandatory Palestine, as it did from nearly every other corner of its former empire, and a Jewish state could be founded.

That's not to say that there was no political benefit to Israel from the holocaust. It did help sway public opinion in favor of creating a Jewish state, and possibly helped the 1947 partition plan gain support at the UN.
The German reparations money was also very helpful for the new and impoverished state, though not receiving it would probably not have meant a death sentence for Israel. In fact it was a highly divisive topic in the Israeli public opinion, almost to the point of an insurrection. The opposition was against it, and leader of the right wing opposition, Begin, called it blood money and used other strong terms in front of a large and violent protest, urging the protestors to surround the parliament building.

As for the numbers debate - I find the conspiratorial tone of some of the posts here odd. As if inflating the number of victims from say 4 or 5 million to 6 would actually make a significant change in public opinion to the benefit of Israel or Jews in general. Not only that, but it also seems that the six million figure originated in the testimonies of Nazi officials in Nuremberg trails and in the Eichmann trail. Specifically the testimony of Wilhelm Höttl.

 

[Kona]

I bet all these denialists and truthers would shit themsleves if you questioned them in person. It's easy to talk shit behind a key board like some of you guys on here. What is there to debate about the Holocaust? Ah yes, it was a Jewish conspiracy to create Israel....

Would you like my address?

Sunday barbeque, Busch beer, and bitching about the Jews is all I got going today.

Aloha!

 

[MidJack]

This is a very interesting thread that is sort of a punch in the gut.

Having followed it and looked at most of the supporting material, I am forced to admit that my knowledge of World War II was only formed by the popular narrative and not a fair or complete consideration of history. It is an almost shameful feeling. I have actually read a couple books about WW2, but they were more episodic and not comprehensive.

I thought the allies entered the war with knowledge of and primarily motivated by the Nazi camps. I did not know that the allies, both Soviet and US, committed mass atrocities against the Germans. I also did not know about the Bolshevik Revolution in Germany starting in 1918.

That all seems patently very relevant. Therefore I must regretfully conclude that history and manufactured popular opinion in the west is not about teaching truth. Then from there I must conclude that we have been manipulated, though I would have to put in a lot more time to understand the precise motives.

I am not prepared to say Hitler wasn't evil. However, being brutalized in WW1 and then seeing a million-strong army of Jews try to take over Germany would go a long way in explaining why he did what he did.

It is also clear that right here is the point where the "truth tellers" and righteous defenders of the Holocaust will start madly typing paragraphs against me for being an independent thinking person.

I guess it shows that grand narratives really are powerful, and people (including me) can be taken in without knowing it. The only way forward is to always be willing to discard old knowledge when given the opportunity.

 

[Syberpunk]

This is a very interesting thread that is sort of a punch in the gut.

Having followed it and looked at most of the supporting material, I am forced to admit that my knowledge of World War II was only formed by the popular narrative and not a fair or complete consideration of history. It is an almost shameful feeling. I have actually read a couple books about WW2, but they were more episodic and not comprehensive.

I thought the allies entered the war with knowledge of and primarily motivated by the Nazi camps. I did not know that the allies, both Soviet and US, committed mass atrocities against the Germans. I also did not know about the Bolshevik Revolution in Germany starting in 1918.

That all seems patently very relevant. Therefore I must regretfully conclude that history and manufactured popular opinion in the west is not about teaching truth. Then from there I must conclude that we have been manipulated, though I would have to put in a lot more time to understand the precise motives.

I am not prepared to say Hitler wasn't evil. However, being brutalized in WW1 and then seeing a million-strong army of Jews try to take over Germany would go a long way in explaining why he did what he did.

It is also clear that right here is the point where the "truth tellers" and righteous defenders of the Holocaust will start madly typing paragraphs against me for being an independent thinking person.

I guess it shows that grand narratives really are powerful, and people (including me) can be taken in without knowing it. The only way forward is to always be willing to discard old knowledge when given the opportunity.

Its the foundation myth for everything in our society, the Nazi's and the term itself became the gold standard of evil to which every controversial idea proposed is compared, and allows those opinions to be cast away.

I apologise, It wasn't my intention to comes across as snippy to Truth Teller.

The war in retrospect if the stories of "holocaust" camps were just work camps for ammunition/POW would make it hard to justify the war in the long view, I honestly believe it made easier to justify we were the good guys and that we all the millions of men who died throwing themselves into gunfire, was all worth it in the face of clear evil such as mass gassings. Look at what average people know about WW1, they barely care because its just another war to them, there's no clearly defined bad guy. Its Terminator 1 to Terminator 2, WW1 is just a bit too unpolished (and eerie) for mass consumption compared to WW2.

Without the holocaust, WW2 becomes hard to explain to the ordinary person, too relativistic. Banking? Boring. Rothchild? Too complicated. Usury? What's that? The capstone or epilogue of the holocaust makes it clear that we fought at all no matter what the cost to ourselves, blows away all ambiguity. Think of it as the big blow out, the great reveal, the grand finale, that's needed, a story and tale so horrific and grueling but ultimately deep inspiring that would last the ages and would be told to your children and your children's children.

Now imagine instead returning to the Shire but you could never see the grand defeat of Sauron on screen. In fact imagine the defeat of Sauron as not grand at all, just bland hand to hand fist fights with nameless faceless cliched looking men.

That is WW2 without the holocaust.

 

[Geomann180]

If a jewish person was living anywhere in europe legally in the 1930s, he was registered somewhere and those records still exist in one form or another today. There is no location in europe that has huge gaps in records of residents in the 1930s that would account for thousands, let alone millions of missing dead (disappeared) people.

Think about this carefully. The Nazis were known to destroy records. It is well-known that the Nazis burned villages in Belorussia, Poland, and the Baltic states. I think 600 were destroyed in Belorussia alone. You're committing a survivorship fallacy, just because certain records survived doesn't mean they all survived.

How do you know that the allies didn't for a fact destroy historical records themselves?

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[TigerMandingo]

Jews are the ones making the Holocaust into a big deal. I grew up half-Jewish (on dad's side and Russian Orthodox on my mother's). I would hear about the Holocaust 24/7. Then it was beaten into my head in public schools and university.

Shut...the....fuck....up.

I love the Japanese attitude. These people had atomic bombs dropped on their asses and not a word of complaint since. No major Hollywood dramas, no "Never Again" bullshit etc. They got over it. Some nations are predisposed to grudgeholding - Jews are a prime example. Another one is Albanians with their animus and butthurt towards Serbs.