That Ron Unz article is possibly the best piece Ive ever read on the denialism debate and its origins. Even better that it's coming from a Jew.
Holocaust fact finding thread
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scorpion said:
His linked article about David Irving is also quite astonishing:
http://www.unz.com/announcement/the-remarkable-historiography-of-david-irving/
Agreed with TigerMandingo - Unz has written quite possibly the best pieces on holocaust denialism.
I just spent this weekend reading the American Pravda articles by Ron Unz. I was greatly impressed by his style, consistent citations, and neutral tone.
If even one if those articles is true then this is the biggest blockbuster story of my life, and if his articles all stand correct, which seems quite likely, then this may be the greatest journalistic scoop in the history of the world.
One shudders at the implications.
For a long time I suspected that the so-called conspiracy theorists had some grain of truth to their arguments, and was generally sympathetic. But to see the matter treated with such precision and to see such a compelling case that nearly all of their claims are vindicated, from JFK to 911 to the Holocaust, can this even be true?
If even one if those articles is true then this is the biggest blockbuster story of my life, and if his articles all stand correct, which seems quite likely, then this may be the greatest journalistic scoop in the history of the world.
One shudders at the implications.
For a long time I suspected that the so-called conspiracy theorists had some grain of truth to their arguments, and was generally sympathetic. But to see the matter treated with such precision and to see such a compelling case that nearly all of their claims are vindicated, from JFK to 911 to the Holocaust, can this even be true?
David Cole/Stein heavily criticised Ron Unz's holocaust piece and he's the guy with the most expertise that I've seen. The holocaust was real with numbers exaggerated and lots of Auschwitz myths is the summary.
Longshanks said:
David Cole has been corrupted. They broke him and he's been a cuck for the Cabal ever since. It's very sad that they got him.
American Pravda is quite possibly the GOAT of journalistic series. I'm hoping Ron Unz releases it as a Hardcover book.
I was watching a show about Hitler's inner circle recently.
For some reason, it seems the cartoonish WW2 coverage is going away. Can't get away with cardboard character descriptions of the national socialists anymore. There was even a british historian calling them "national socialists" instead of the ridiculous NATZI label. Can you imagine if historians talking about Stalin kept calling them "commies" or the "red terror"?
In any case, this interesting series also talked about how and when anti-semittism came into the NS party. Hitler, as it turns out, despite being anti-communist/anti-semittic, was not the chief jew hater. That was actually Goebbels. Another interesting tidbit was that Goebbels was a player who bagged numerous actresses. He is usually depicted as a crippled hateful loser. In reality he was very charming. Himmler who supposedly was the big bad guy in charge of the SS and the camps, was far more moderate on the JQ. Put together, it just shows that the cartoonish depiction of national-socialist Germnay doesn't hold up to scrutiny. More research is needed.
For some reason, it seems the cartoonish WW2 coverage is going away. Can't get away with cardboard character descriptions of the national socialists anymore. There was even a british historian calling them "national socialists" instead of the ridiculous NATZI label. Can you imagine if historians talking about Stalin kept calling them "commies" or the "red terror"?
In any case, this interesting series also talked about how and when anti-semittism came into the NS party. Hitler, as it turns out, despite being anti-communist/anti-semittic, was not the chief jew hater. That was actually Goebbels. Another interesting tidbit was that Goebbels was a player who bagged numerous actresses. He is usually depicted as a crippled hateful loser. In reality he was very charming. Himmler who supposedly was the big bad guy in charge of the SS and the camps, was far more moderate on the JQ. Put together, it just shows that the cartoonish depiction of national-socialist Germnay doesn't hold up to scrutiny. More research is needed.
In all fairness, none of that is particularly groundbreaking stuff. Goebbels was a fervent anti-semite, and probably the chief one — I know that without watching the doc you did. He also had 2 PhDs, was a great filmmaker, so it also doesn't surprise me that he did well with chicks — especially in an era where being intelligent academically was still a 'DHV', ha. He did have a limp though.
Hitler was much more normal than made out in mainstream TV docs, but history books by non-revisionist historians/mainstream historians acknowledge this. So does Speer in his two diaries, which remain two of my most enjoyable books to ever read. Utterly fascinating, as I've said previously on this thread. Hitler practised theatre acting in order to orate effectively, and boy did it pay off, he's the best populist speaker in history. He was somewhat an isolated, insular character (thus described a a weirdo by mainstream doc makers often), but this is typical with many talented thinkers/performers.
Himmler was a dork on a power trip. Hitler was always embarrassed by his obsession with the esoteric. Middle management-style sycophancy was how he rose to prominence. Heydrich, his subordinate, was far more the fanatic when it came to Jews and exterminating them. By the way nomad, would you mind telling me the series you watched?
Hitler was much more normal than made out in mainstream TV docs, but history books by non-revisionist historians/mainstream historians acknowledge this. So does Speer in his two diaries, which remain two of my most enjoyable books to ever read. Utterly fascinating, as I've said previously on this thread. Hitler practised theatre acting in order to orate effectively, and boy did it pay off, he's the best populist speaker in history. He was somewhat an isolated, insular character (thus described a a weirdo by mainstream doc makers often), but this is typical with many talented thinkers/performers.
Himmler was a dork on a power trip. Hitler was always embarrassed by his obsession with the esoteric. Middle management-style sycophancy was how he rose to prominence. Heydrich, his subordinate, was far more the fanatic when it came to Jews and exterminating them. By the way nomad, would you mind telling me the series you watched?
The really grounbreaking work was done by Fritjof Meyer in OstEuropa magazine. Meyer actually demonstrated beyond doubt that the maximum figure for the dead at Auschwitz was half a million, not the four million which to this day are claimed. Of which a maximum of 356,000 could have been gassed. He examined the maximum capacity of the crematoria.
The whole Fritjof Meyer saga is here:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Osteuropa/Meyer_replies_engl.html
The whole Fritjof Meyer saga is here:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Osteuropa/Meyer_replies_engl.html
^ Just type Albert Speer into Wiki for his bio, and likewise on Amazon for his books. He was one of Hitler's closest confidants, and eventually head of armnanents (though originally just an architect - his visual creativity appealed to Hitler due to them both being artists at heart). The best one is 'Inside the Third Reich', that he wrote in prison in England. It's quite wordy, and it often feels like an overly-literal translation from German, so it's not always an 'enjoyable' read but more one of academic study. But, much of it is very page-turning, particularly the earlier parts before the Nazis came to power, where he discusses going for meals with Hitler and how Hitler would have to 'get into character' to interact with the general public etc.
Teedub said:
It's this one:
I don't know what I expected, but I'm so used to over the top and incorrect documentaries, that just one being sort of neutral, is good to me. This one is free of the usual derogatory personal insults, but still missing the wider picture in putting it into context with the rise of bolshevism.
I'm partial to Goebbels maniac speeches though. "Wollt ihr den totalen krieg" and "Einmal wird unsere geduld zu ende".
Richard Turpin
Kingfisher
I've always wondered as I got older whether the WW1/2 narrative would loosen. I never actually questioned any of it until I lived through and saw with my own eyes all the blatant lies told during the Gulf Wars; how easily Tony Blair convinced the hesitant public that Saddam was now 'evil' and had WMD's that could hit the UK 'in 45 minutes'. I was still at school and remember everyone changing their minds on the war overnight. If they could lie so easily and effectively over this, then what else have the lied about?
The Iraq Wars, Vietnam, Libya, Syria inevitably gets you thinking about WW2, about how easy it would have been in the 1930's to influence (hell, control) the populace who had nothing but a couple of newspapers and a fucking Radio from which to receive their programming!
I think the advent of the Internet has given us a brief window of opportunity to research alternative opinions and evidence. Though this is an aberration and is being corrected now.
These events are now 70-80 years old and the inability to be able to even question any of it just makes it all the more fascinating; the ultimate Streisand effect (a phenomenon whereby an attempt to hide, remove, or censor a piece of information has the unintended consequence of publicizing the information more widely). A truly free society would never allow any part of history to be out of bounds, the truth should be bullet-proof to rigorous investigation.
I don't even care about the rights and wrongs, I just don't like being lied to or told what I should be thinking. I like even less the fact that so many incredibly brave men died thinking that their grandchildren would live in a better world as a result.
I would love to be able to bring some of them forward in time, show them the UK today and ask them their honest opinions about whether their blood was worth the sacrifice! I wonder what they would truly say. Would make for a fascinating film (in the style of 'Look Who's Back'!)
Coming back to how old these events are; soon it will be inconceivable that events from 100 years ago could still be out of bounds. Imagine a historian in 1950 being told he wasn't allowed to question events surrounding the Crimean War 100 years prior in 1850! Kids soon just won't give a fuck and will question everything, they won't have grandparents alive who fought in the war to keep them on course with the narrative.
I think some of us may yet live to learn a few things that were hitherto kept tightly under-wraps. Trouble is, by the time these new truths leak out nobody from our time will be alive to care and the news will lose its potency. If you can't stop something, delay it.
The Iraq Wars, Vietnam, Libya, Syria inevitably gets you thinking about WW2, about how easy it would have been in the 1930's to influence (hell, control) the populace who had nothing but a couple of newspapers and a fucking Radio from which to receive their programming!
I think the advent of the Internet has given us a brief window of opportunity to research alternative opinions and evidence. Though this is an aberration and is being corrected now.
These events are now 70-80 years old and the inability to be able to even question any of it just makes it all the more fascinating; the ultimate Streisand effect (a phenomenon whereby an attempt to hide, remove, or censor a piece of information has the unintended consequence of publicizing the information more widely). A truly free society would never allow any part of history to be out of bounds, the truth should be bullet-proof to rigorous investigation.
I don't even care about the rights and wrongs, I just don't like being lied to or told what I should be thinking. I like even less the fact that so many incredibly brave men died thinking that their grandchildren would live in a better world as a result.
I would love to be able to bring some of them forward in time, show them the UK today and ask them their honest opinions about whether their blood was worth the sacrifice! I wonder what they would truly say. Would make for a fascinating film (in the style of 'Look Who's Back'!)
Coming back to how old these events are; soon it will be inconceivable that events from 100 years ago could still be out of bounds. Imagine a historian in 1950 being told he wasn't allowed to question events surrounding the Crimean War 100 years prior in 1850! Kids soon just won't give a fuck and will question everything, they won't have grandparents alive who fought in the war to keep them on course with the narrative.
I think some of us may yet live to learn a few things that were hitherto kept tightly under-wraps. Trouble is, by the time these new truths leak out nobody from our time will be alive to care and the news will lose its potency. If you can't stop something, delay it.
There were more people killed in Paris after the war as retribution
than the Germans killed during their occupation. Just as there
were more Germans killed in Allied concentration camps
between 1945-53 than Jews killed in German camps,
by a factor of 10+.
https://antioligarch.wordpress.com/...of-germans-1945-1950-eisenhowers-death-camps/
This is what a real death camp looks like: no barracks, toilet facilities,
swimming pool, theater, dining halls, intramural soccer league and field,
library, like the residents of work camps like Auschwitz had, just a bare
open field with little food and no running water where men and
women withered away from the elements. Between 1.5 and 2 million
German POWs died this way in Allied captivity. another 5 million Germans
were killed by the Soviets.
than the Germans killed during their occupation. Just as there
were more Germans killed in Allied concentration camps
between 1945-53 than Jews killed in German camps,
by a factor of 10+.
https://antioligarch.wordpress.com/...of-germans-1945-1950-eisenhowers-death-camps/
This is what a real death camp looks like: no barracks, toilet facilities,
swimming pool, theater, dining halls, intramural soccer league and field,
library, like the residents of work camps like Auschwitz had, just a bare
open field with little food and no running water where men and
women withered away from the elements. Between 1.5 and 2 million
German POWs died this way in Allied captivity. another 5 million Germans
were killed by the Soviets.
Interesting angle of demography, in case it hasn't been brought up before:
"[Jews] did not disappear in 1941 or 1943, or, 1944, or, 1945. But some 4-5 million Jews disappeared between 1950 and 1955!
This defines an until now undescribed holocaust. If it has been executed in Auschwitz or any other former camp in then Poland, it must be the Soviets or the Poles who are the guilty perpetrators. The basis of this discovery is the estimate of the Jewish world population by the World Almanac, published by the "American Jewish Committee, USA".
From 1933 until 1949, each single volume of the yearly edition invariably estimates 15,000,000 to 18,600,000 Jewish persons worldwide. But in 1950 all of a sudden 4 million disappear, to reappear in 1951 and again disappear in 1955. Jewish figures include all Jews whether members of a synagogue or not.
Jewish Authority Year World Jewish Population
The National Council of Churches, USA 1930 15,000,000
Jewish Encyclopedia, USA 1933 15,600,000
Daily Express (Jewish newspaper) March 24 1933 14,000,000
World Almanac, page 419, American Jewish Committee 1933 15,316,359
World Almanac, page 748 1936 15,753,633
American Jewish Committee Bureau of the Synagogue Council 1939 15,600,000
World Almanac of the American Jewish Committee, USA 1939 15,600,000
World Almanac, page 129 1940 15,319,359
World Almanac, page 510 1941 15,748,091
World Almanac, (Jews include Jews by race not religion) 1942 15,192,089
World Almanac of American Jewish Committee, USA 1945 15,192,089
World Almanac of American Jewish Committee, USA 1946 15,753,638
World Almanac of American Jewish Committee, USA 1947 15,698,259
World Almanac USA, page 748 1947 15,690,000
World Almanac of American Jewish Committee, USA 1948 15,500,000
The New York Times, USA (Jewish newspaper) 1948 15,700,000 -18,600,000
World Almanac, page 289 1949 15,713,638
World Almanac of American Jewish Committee, USA 1950 11,500,000
Statistical Handbook of Council of Churches USA 1951 15,300,000
The National Council of Churches, USA 1951 15,500,000
Encyclopedia Britannica 1955 Book of the Year 1955 11,627,450
1997 World Almanac 1996 14,117,000
1999 World Almanac 1998 14,890,000
2005 World Almanac 2004 14,551,000
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/decalog.htm
"[Jews] did not disappear in 1941 or 1943, or, 1944, or, 1945. But some 4-5 million Jews disappeared between 1950 and 1955!
This defines an until now undescribed holocaust. If it has been executed in Auschwitz or any other former camp in then Poland, it must be the Soviets or the Poles who are the guilty perpetrators. The basis of this discovery is the estimate of the Jewish world population by the World Almanac, published by the "American Jewish Committee, USA".
From 1933 until 1949, each single volume of the yearly edition invariably estimates 15,000,000 to 18,600,000 Jewish persons worldwide. But in 1950 all of a sudden 4 million disappear, to reappear in 1951 and again disappear in 1955. Jewish figures include all Jews whether members of a synagogue or not.
Jewish Authority Year World Jewish Population
The National Council of Churches, USA 1930 15,000,000
Jewish Encyclopedia, USA 1933 15,600,000
Daily Express (Jewish newspaper) March 24 1933 14,000,000
World Almanac, page 419, American Jewish Committee 1933 15,316,359
World Almanac, page 748 1936 15,753,633
American Jewish Committee Bureau of the Synagogue Council 1939 15,600,000
World Almanac of the American Jewish Committee, USA 1939 15,600,000
World Almanac, page 129 1940 15,319,359
World Almanac, page 510 1941 15,748,091
World Almanac, (Jews include Jews by race not religion) 1942 15,192,089
World Almanac of American Jewish Committee, USA 1945 15,192,089
World Almanac of American Jewish Committee, USA 1946 15,753,638
World Almanac of American Jewish Committee, USA 1947 15,698,259
World Almanac USA, page 748 1947 15,690,000
World Almanac of American Jewish Committee, USA 1948 15,500,000
The New York Times, USA (Jewish newspaper) 1948 15,700,000 -18,600,000
World Almanac, page 289 1949 15,713,638
World Almanac of American Jewish Committee, USA 1950 11,500,000
Statistical Handbook of Council of Churches USA 1951 15,300,000
The National Council of Churches, USA 1951 15,500,000
Encyclopedia Britannica 1955 Book of the Year 1955 11,627,450
1997 World Almanac 1996 14,117,000
1999 World Almanac 1998 14,890,000
2005 World Almanac 2004 14,551,000
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/decalog.htm
Richard Turpin
Kingfisher
@911, this is fascinating stuff. I hate the fact that I feel conditioned to feel guilty for even reading this stuff. It's Orwellian.
Reminds me of when I first read about the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff. I'd never heard of it in my entire life and I thought I was ok general knowledge wise. In fact, when I used to do pub quizzes, we would hear 'What was the largest maritime disaster in loss of life?' question a lot. We knew it'd either be Titanic or Lusitania, depending on which Encyclopedia the quizmaster had.
I had no idea at the time that;
Reminds me of when I first read about the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff. I'd never heard of it in my entire life and I thought I was ok general knowledge wise. In fact, when I used to do pub quizzes, we would hear 'What was the largest maritime disaster in loss of life?' question a lot. We knew it'd either be Titanic or Lusitania, depending on which Encyclopedia the quizmaster had.
I had no idea at the time that;
911 said:
Apart from the ones who really died on the battlefields of Europe AND in *Palestine, I've always assumed that a large number of "dead" Jews died "on paper" only. They were then "re-born" with new names and identities... in new lands.
There always was some sort of boner over lists and names. And a HUGE boner over the 6 million number, even before WW1, as can be studied in historical newspaper clippings if you have the time.
It's very interesting stuff and a shame that ALL our schools never taught history correctly.
*Polish trained strictly Jewish battalions were sent to Palestine before 1939 during the "Arab Revolt" to clear the area for future Israel.
*Polish meaning in the area of current day Poland, however calling ALL people Polish in that place and in those times is like calling everyone in current day Australia "Australian" when in reality it's multicultural with dozens of nationalities running around and scheming for the benefit of their own people/tribes/families while "the elites" skim off everyone.
