Hostages held at knifepoint in French church

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Phoenix

 
Banned
As someone who made peace with this future back when I was 18, I'd like to say something to put this into context beyond "crusade time!11!!".

On "let's fight Islam". Islam was never the problem. I've been saying this since my teens. If you come across a kindergarten full of wild dogs, who are savaging the children, it's easy to point the finger at the dogs. It's easy to rant about how the dogs are uncivilized and violent and aggressive. How they should be got rid of. How they should now be thrown out.

But that is a truly comical form of tunnel vision and naivety.

The wise man instead calmly looks towards the door of the kindergarten -- and looks upon the figure standing there, pinning the door open with his foot, with a big grin on his face.

The problem was never about the muslims. They come from poor countries, burdened by a primitive form of civilization. They were always going to come, and try and make better lives for themselves. They were always going to have their elements who, like all humans, have a territorial instinct. The problem was the leftist, and the leftist alone, holding the door open for the sake of his sadomasochist pleasure.

I disagree with QC about ISIS. IS is simply "Islamic State". It follows one simple rule: the Koran and the word of Muhammad is to be interpreted strictly and comprehensively. The role of the caliph is well illustrated in the texts of Islam, as is the nature of the caliphate. How could you prosecute someone for being a member of "Islamic State"? Two questions, are you Muslim and should your state be Muslim?

IS is nothing more than an energized Islam. Energized by the leftism of the west -- which smells like weakness, and concurrent destruction of the dictators who were holding them in check. It's worth remembering that what Islam is doing now is nothing more than a continuation of what it was doing in the 600s. Just look at your clock on your computer -- it's 2016 now, and they are simply doing the same thing.

Islam should be viewed in the same way we view wolves -- they can't win, they can't kill us, unless we ourselves make mistakes.

The solution to the question of the 21st century western decline is a very simple one: why is the leftist empowered?

That is to say: why are the anti-social members of society ruling, instead of being ostracized? Why are those who weaken us not cast out, and instead attack us with impunity?

The answer stares us all in the face, and sits suspiciously beyond criticism: democracy. By what unnatural constitution does something like this happen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_1945

A great man defeats a brutal enemy hell-bent on world domination, and is then immediately cast aside by pieces of paper being dropped into boxes? Who could ever look upon such a system and call it sane? Comically, even that man himself famously said "it's the least bad system", and played a role in starting it back in 1911.

Little more than mass arrogance. The idea that just because you have your piece of paper, you'll be able to lead your country to safety and greatness. You'll be able to see to it that you get treated well. What a fucking laugh.

The solution to decay is ownership. Nobody does maintenance on houses they rent unless forced too. A house that they own is a different story. They have their whole savings to lose if it gets eaten by termites, versus the renter who will just have to move his stuff elsewhere. Nobody protects an animal from poachers more than its owner.

Likewise, no democratic politician gives a shit about his country beyond what he can exploit from it in 4 years.

And likewise, nobody protects a country more than kings and lords. It's their and their family's kingdom to lose. Why did the Saudi's take zero refugees? Because why would they? Would you take a refugee into your house willingly? Well Saudi Arabia is literally theirs too. They have simply acted in their own natural interests.

We've all shrugged off such hierarchies as being "medieval", thinking we've done good for ourselves, only to set ourselves up to get conquered by those who will simply restore themselves as rulers in place.

The only role of democracy is to formalize the power of revolt. That is, for the weaker but more numerous to check the stronger but less numerous should they decide to exploit instead of lead. And so on up the pyramid. The balanced and traditional constitution consists of 1 king, a minority of hereditary nobles, and a large qualified electorate (male landowners).

It is the absence of this constitution alone, and the existence of democracy in it's place, that is creating this situation. The only answer to this situation will be one that restores said constitution.

On the genocide talk, it's just reactive bunk. Simply making your position more harsh each time a bad event happens is not a "ramping up". It's just multiplying of zero by 100 instead of by 10.

If kings returned, there would be little need for genocide. Genocide and psychopaths who wish it and carry it out have never achieved anything good. Indeed you could argue that Hitler is in fact personally to blame for the problem we now have, as after his know-no-limits aggressive psychopathy burned out, the backlash predictably created today's pervasive western leftism.

A king, like the head of a house, simply asks the unwanted guests nicely to leave. If they say no, he explains more clearly why they must leave, why it's not working out, and then draws his sword and places it upon his table. If that's not enough, he makes an example until the rest get the picture, and they then leave. It's been done before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Moriscos

The muslims were never the issue. The issue is the leftists. The issue is in them gravitating to the center of power instead of being beaten to the outskirts. The issue is the absence of kings.
 

Valentine

Kingfisher
Catholic
Gold Member
Phoenix said:
The muslims were never the issue. The issue is the leftists. The issue is in them gravitating to the center of power instead of being beaten to the outskirts. The issue is the absence of kings.

Great post. I've been curious about the arguments of monarchy vs democracy and the difference ownership makes is a very powerful argument.

I'd go one step further with identifying the real issue though. Muslims are given free reign by leftist policies and social commentary, who are in turn given free reign by globalists who appoint them to positions of power and fund their causes.

You can again see the value of monarchy by seeing the power of quasi-monarchs like Putin and Kim Jong-un who are some of the only anti-globalists with real influence behind them.
 

Samseau

Eagle
Orthodox
Gold Member
The idea that Monarchy is the answer is total nonsense. There are so many examples of Kings and Queens completely abusing their power and destroying their nation we could spend all week discussing them in this thread.

The guy who bankrupted France which lead to the French Revolution?
The Emperors who destroyed Rome, or Justinian the Great whose disastrous rule reduced Byzantine to half its territory in under a 100 years?
Terrible Chinese, Russian, and African Kings who can also be added to the list.

The oversimplification Phoenix makes is really freshman stuff. You should read some more history before you start suggesting political solutions, you jumped into the deep end and you don't know how to swim.
 

Orion

Kingfisher
Gold Member
Samseau said:
The idea that Monarchy is the answer is total nonsense. There are so many examples of Kings and Queens completely abusing their power and destroying their nation we could spend all week discussing them in this thread.

There are so many example of consecutive presidents destroying, selling, or simply neglecting their nation, often also out of interests. Taken into account that democracy is completely vertically open to all groups with enough financial and social capital, it is a system pre-wired for subversion, and hence almost completely incompatible with nationalism without harsh discriminatory laws towards minorities, foreigners, etc.

Power abuse is nothing inherent to monarchy. It is garden variety Whig non-sense which completely ignores any historical-material conditions for important events.

The guy who bankrupted France which lead to the French Revolution?

How did subsequent republics show themselves to be any better ? It was one loss in prestige and territories after another. Then, you can't ignore the bourgeoisie nature of revolution. Middle classes wanted the power that was reserved for aristocracy. Unfortunately, once loosened, the valve could not be tightened again. State structure was now wide open for subversion, manipulation, and incessant agitation.

The Emperors who destroyed Rome, or Justinian the Great whose disastrous rule reduced Byzantine to half its territory in under a 100 years?
Terrible Chinese, Russian, and African Kings who can also be added to the list.

As i said, claiming that monarchy is the sole cause of historical events of colossal proportions is Whig habit of completely ignoring underlying causes, which can be material, political, cultural, etc... To Whigs, it was all about ideas, and the entire history is just a never ending cycle of one "muh opinion" winning over another "muh opinion" which is nonsense.

Also, you must be aware of your own cultural presentiments that lead you to dismiss idea of monarchy.
 

TooFineAPoint

Ostrich
Protestant
Monarchy + strong aristocracy > Republic with limited franchise > Democracy with universal suffrage > Monarchy by Divine Right
 

Phoenix

 
Banned
Yeah what Orion said. Correlation doesn't imply causation. But Samsaeu is known for this, simply choosing a correlation, applying an opinion to it, and then calling other people's opinion "complete nonsense". Or worse and like in this case -- choosing the worst examples and calling them the rule and sole cause.

On the globalists question, it's a popular opinion here that it's just some bunch of elite bad guys wanting to rule the world. It's spoken of like they are evil gods. In reality they are just men. They are power hedonists looking for an ever stronger fix of that drug. None of them have ownership of any position they reach, or anything to lose, so the best tactic to fuel their addiction is just keep shooting higher. It's just the natural extension of democracy.
 

Leonard D Neubache

Owl
Gold Member
Foolsgo1d said:
...
Reality check: Nobody here knows what will happen 5 years from now, let alone 20. They could take over, they might not. I don't care either way.
...

Thankyou for confirming something I have suspected for a while now.

Your opinions shall be regarded as such. As those of a disinterested observer.
 

Leonard D Neubache

Owl
Gold Member
People may not like the idea of a monarchy but if they want a reality check, here's the gold standard.

Democracy is not going to save us from what democracy has inflicted upon us.

We all want to have our cake and eat it too. Tough titties. It's not going to happen. There is no way out but through, and democracy is blocking the door. So what's the solution?
 

El Chinito loco

 
Banned
Other Christian
Gold Member
The problem with monarchy are bloodlines and the resulting mess it always causes when it comes to succession. Then of course the idea of "royal" blood and divinity starts to rear its head eventually too. If you're from a line that has absolute power based on descent then at some point you will try your hand at convincing the people you are a god king also. It's the next step in absolute power.

This seems to end up happening more often than not. Even the pragmatic Romans weren't immune to this sort of thing.

In modern times you just have to look at the King of Thailand to see a living breathing example of someone who is pumped up to near god king status. He actually has to downplay his image to prevent over the top fanaticism.
 

N°6

Hummingbird
Handsome Creepy Eel said:
Technological advancement and mass production are useless when your population consists almost exclusively of cucked Starbucks-sipping hipsters trying to compete who is the biggest victim.

Unfortunately for the Roman Church and for Christians in general, the liberal-capital and liberal-social SJW paradigm hates Christians and no amount of cucking, niceness and tolerant appeasement will win them over.

As Jesus said:

Matthew 11:16-17 said:
"To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:

"'We played the pipe for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'

This is the religious equivalent of playing the dancing monkey in Game and a man trying to be a tolerant feminist to appease women into bed. But this is what organised churchianity has been doing with the liberal establishment in the West but it will not mourn when Christians begin to be martyred in their homelands. So don't sing the victim dirge, no-one will mourn for you.

Did Obama et al mourn when Syrian and north African Christians get massacred?

Did NATO and the Western military-industrial-complex mourn of heed the Syrian patriarch's pleas that the Jihad that the West supports is destroying Christianity in the land of Saint Paul?

No.

Hollande talks about the slaying of a priest as an attack against the Republic as opposed to France. The French Republic has slew more priests than many other régimes. Before anyone thinks that this happened centuries ago, they should consider what the Republicans did during the Spanish Civil War to priests and nuns. This is relevant as the Republican struggle in Spain and its support by middle class International Brigades is the source of inspiration to the liberal, SJW, financial-democratic establishment.
 

Leonard D Neubache

Owl
Gold Member
A meritocracy is just about the only thing that hasn't been tried yet, but the fact is that nobody is quietly going to allow themselves to be stripped of their right to vote. It's a thing that could only rise from the ashes of our current arrangement.

A Constitutional democracy with strictly limiting taxation laws that in practice prevent the creation of a police/welfare/warfare state could also have merit, not that the plain letter law of Constitution of the US is held to have any relevance these days.
 

Phoenix

 
Banned
Leonard D Neubache said:
A meritocracy is just about the only thing that hasn't been tried yet, but the fact is that nobody is quietly going to allow themselves to be stripped of their right to vote. It's a thing that could only rise from the ashes of our current arrangement.

A Constitutional democracy with strictly limiting taxation laws that in practice prevent the creation of a police/welfare/warfare state could also have merit, not that the plain letter law of Constitution of the US is held to have any relevance these days.

It's important to avoid using the passive tense in these discussions -- from whom will the strict limits come? By whom will merit be adjudicated? Constitutions are only constitutions insofar as they are self-sustaining.

For instance, the 1st amendment in the US constitution only stays in force because of Article III -- which empowers the judges to be the sole final interpreters of the law. To them, enforcing rights is their source of power. Consequently though, they then abuse that by inventing new rights to suit their political persuasions.

The funny thing is, all of this has already been covered thousands of years ago by Aristotle. Back then he had already explained the importance of avoiding faction, and doing so by separating powers, checks and balances etc.

A democratic house checks the power of a king, but likewise, a king checks the power of a democratic house. No foreign militant goes chopping off the heads of local church men in a kingdom without it's king having their own heads displayed on spikes, and issuing a warning to their community/clans to cease spoiling his peace lest they get a one-way ticket back to their sandy shithole of a homeland.

A deeper question might be: why do constitutions degenerate? I suspect we do not currently have the biological and sociological knowledge required to answer that yet. Certainly no democratic government would support such research. I guess a particularly long-sighted and down-to-earth king might.
 

Mercenary

Hummingbird
I'm going to have to agree with Samseau on this one...having a king is no guarantee of a better run country.

A few examples from history:

Kaiser Wilhelm II - Destroyed the Germany empire built by Bismarck by embarking on one of the most destructive wars in history of mankind.

Tsar Nicholas II - Totally pussified ruler who was unable to prevent the rise of communism and the destruction of the Russian empire. He also was a total cuck who let his slut wife cheat on him with Rasputin, which probably was a main reason for his inability to rule properly.

George III - Totally insane. Overtaxed the American colonies so harshly they broke off and created the USA and got into a war with them that decimated the British Army and nearly bankrupted the country.

Honorius
- Roman emperor who outlawed trousers and was so lazy and passive (and probably gay) it lead to the sack of Rome in 410


One thing monarchy does do correctly is bind people behind a single ruler that people can look up to who protects them and represents them...even in mass democracies people still look to single leaders rather than a group or party. But being a benevolent alpha ruler, is no guarantee your children will be as well, no matter how well you train them.

I'm not saying democracies are better, but we need a reality check when it comes to monarchies.
 

Leonard D Neubache

Owl
Gold Member
Phoenix said:
...
A deeper question might be: why do constitutions degenerate? I suspect we do not currently have the biological and sociological knowledge required to answer that yet. Certainly no democratic government would support such research. I guess a particularly long-sighted and down-to-earth king might.

Good post, snipped but for the part above. I don't think there's much of a riddle to the degeneration of a successful constitutionally limited democracy. Success and plenty breed complacency. Those who seek power are not so complacent. While the man on the street sleepwalks, the connivers undermine the checks and balances, gathering to themselves more and more power. Inevitably this comes at a cost to the man on the street, who begins to wake.

That is where we are now.

A meritocracy could only occur organically. A collapse might occur, where-after the people who take control decide to institute a different arrangement. The nature of the organisation that takes control would dictate what merit meant and who was measured to posses it. If they were wise then the new (possibly constitutionally limited) meritocracy would flourish and sweep away opposition. If they were unwise then the new arrangement would inevitably collapse and something else would just take its place.

There is of course another possibility that none of us seem to mention. That the military sweeps away the old government, bins everything except the Constitution, holds new elections and the USA starts fresh. Not as cut and dried as it would sound, but not the worst outcome by far.
 

Orion

Kingfisher
Gold Member
El Chinito loco said:
The problem with monarchy are bloodlines and the resulting mess it always causes when it comes to succession. Then of course the idea of "royal" blood and divinity starts to rear its head eventually too. If you're from a line that has absolute power based on descent then at some point you will try your hand at convincing the people you are a god king also. It's the next step in absolute power.

This seems to end up happening more often than not. Even the pragmatic Romans weren't immune to this sort of thing.

In modern times you just have to look at the King of Thailand to see a living breathing example of someone who is pumped up to near god king status. He actually has to downplay his image to prevent over the top fanaticism.

But that would imply that succession problems were THE cause behind succession wars, and not the simple power struggle.

Also, that would also imply that democracy, as a system that has an inherent flaw of holiness spin, does not posses the same mechanism for inciting wars. Why do you think that America invaded half of the world ? Because of democracy !

Reality is, once the succession wars were concluded, and the real interests, that is, territories, were divided, everyone would forget about his succession claim

you will try your hand at convincing the people you are a god king also. It's the next step in absolute power.

You are trying to make it sound like the whole God-King concept was some kind of bizarre mania of Kings, and not a well thought spiritual and political idea of hierarchy.

Has anyone read The Protocols by the way ? Besides of what everyone thinks that they are just a tirade, they have many golden quotes. One of them is, i paraphrase "The Goyim had willingly overthrown their despots, and now, they shall live under OUR despotism"

And that's the reality. Form of government is a matter of practicality for every sane person. If i consider myself a nationalist and traditionalist, then for my ideas, democracy is THE worst form of government, because it is designed to subvert and destroy nation and tradition. Quite plain and simple approach. Monarchy is therefore more acceptable, because to much greater extent lessens the possibility of subversive elements taking grip of political power. Which again, depends on the level to which the ruler will be willing to control things, rather than let his country be run by the winds of fortune

Mercenary said:
A few examples from history:

Kaiser Wilhelm II - Destroyed the Germany empire built by Bismarck by embarking on one of the most destructive wars in history of mankind.

Tsar Nicholas II - Totally pussified ruler who was unable to prevent the rise of communism and the destruction of the Russian empire. He also was a total cuck who let his slut wife cheat on him with Rasputin, which probably was a main reason for his inability to rule properly.

George III - Totally insane. Overtaxed the American colonies so harshly they broke off and created the USA and got into a war with them that decimated the British Army and nearly bankrupted the country.

Honorius
- Roman emperor who outlawed trousers and was so lazy and passive (and probably gay) it lead to the sack of Rome in 410

No wonder you agree with him when you share such a simplified approach in which every historical upheaval can be explained in terms of "peculiar" leaders, and not through profound and powerful political motions, in which rulers found themselves in the midst of, as much they have created them
 

Leonard D Neubache

Owl
Gold Member
It's interesting that we're on the cusp of either a global gulag state or a societal collapse of unprecedented scale, ushered in under democracy, and there are still people frothing at the mouth about the concept of a monarchy because "some of them ended really badly."
 

Phoenix

 
Banned
Mercenary said:
I'm going to have to agree with Samseau on this one...having a king is no guarantee of a better run country.

A few examples from history:

A few examples do not make a rule. Especially George III -- if you look up the size of the taxes they revolted over, versus the amount of taxes Americans pay now, you'd have quite a chuckle.

The autocrat leaders like Nick II and the crazy roman emperors are not examples of a balanced, constitutional monarchy. They are examples of the importance of a balanced constitution. "Praetorian guard stabs the Emperor to death if he gets out of hand" isn't what I'd call a balanced constitution. I have made it repeatedly clear that what is needed is a king, but not a king alone. It seems so far that opponents would rather not argue these things from a reasoned and balanced point of view, when instead they can launch into dramatic extremes.

Selectively picking out bad kings is no argument. Put them side by side with all the good and peaceful kings in a list, and put that side by side with the democracies and republics of history and their track records, show me the ratios, and that's an argument.

Alternatively, how else do you propose the European situation is reversed? All I ever hear is grumbling about "globalists" and "the elites" and "how we're all fucked". My proposal, as argued in terms of "the king owns his kingdom so at least he won't shit on it", is a step in the right direction. Samsaeu is great at the dooming and glooming and "none of you are wise like me so why even talk?", but what does he propose? Maybe he gets his Trump -- but like Reagan or Thatcher or Churchill, you get them for a decade and then it's back to the rot.
 

Samseau

Eagle
Orthodox
Gold Member
The best form of government is the kind of democracy described in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress," where voting rights are directly ascribed to individual accomplishment and merit to the state.

Interspersed throughout the book are other flashbacks to Rico's History and Moral Philosophy course, which reveal that the rights of a full Citizen (to vote and hold public office) must be earned through voluntary Federal service. Those who do not perform this Service retain the rights of free speech, assembly, etc., but cannot vote or hold public office. This structure arose ad hoc after the collapse of the "20th century Western democracies", brought on by social failures at home (among which appear to be poor handling of juvenile delinquency) and military defeat by the Chinese Hegemony overseas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers#Plot

When America fails, this is the next logical step. I will grant you that when creating a new government, you need a powerful singular ruler like George Washington to set things up, but afterwards you want power to be maintained through a federal system of checks and balances because the threat of a tyrant fucking up the system is so damaging.

Rousseau called men like Washington, "Lawgivers," the original Kings who get the ball rolling, but most governments aren't lucky enough to have great Lawgivers and instead get tyrants. Lycurgus of Sparta, Lenin, Mao, Hitler, Napoleon, Ataturk, are some examples of Lawgivers and obviously most of them have not had good results. But when the results are good, they are great.

If you read your Aristotle's Politics, you'll learn there is a difference between Kings and Tyrants, Aristocracies and Oligarchies, Constitutional Democracies and Mob Rule Democracies. Kings are the best form of government, but Tyrants are the worst. So singular rulers are high risk, high reward plays that should be avoided as much as possible because the potential for disaster is much worse than what democracies can do to their people.

But when shit hits the fan, that's when the King is needed again. But you only want to keep a King for a little while, because it only takes one bad King (i.e. a Tyrant) to completely destroy a nation. Thus it is preferable to set up a constitution when the King is in power to be followed after his death rather than deal with issues of succession.
 

PUA_Rachacha

Woodpecker
Catholic
Samseau said:
The best form of government is the kind of democracy described in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress," where voting rights are directly ascribed to individual accomplishment and merit to the state.

[

Didn't you mean to say Starship Troopers?
 
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