How does money work in relationships with Slavic women (before children)

[Fidem_Spes_Amare]

Is it possible that we have not fully given ourselves over to God's will that his providence is sheltering these women from us? Would it not make sense then if we indeed desire a holy and viruous partner that we must walk the full path ourselves?

I like this point. God's providence is also sheltering us from ourselves, so we do not become the one who "causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin." Worse than being thrown into the sea with a millstone around our neck. So if God keeps us away from good women who, because of our sinful past and broken nature we would harm and lead into sin, He protects both those women and ourselves from further sin and corruption.

The difficulty is, how to live in the world as a "monk"? I don't believe it is possible. We are among others and for many of us the temptation to sexual sin is too strong, or the temptations toward anger, hatred, depression, sloth, etc. while isolated are too great, that we realize the need of a female partner whether she is a good or bad woman. I think this is something necessary for our salvation that God knows too, and plans for us who are not deserving of the best women. We get what we deserve when it comes to women, in reality much better than what we deserve.

 

[McKinnsley]

Great post. What stood out in the women that you, more or less, instantly knew wouldn't work out? Also, what age was your wife when you met her?

I think the problem that most guys that do pretty well, those that aren't super materialistic but have a good idea of how hard it is to make money - or to have gotten as far as they have - is that they can really sense the overwhelming desire that older women have in spending a man's money, when the guy doesn't get all that much in return for any of it. Especially when attention is also the other currency men have to pay, and quite handsomely (at least in the west). That's what the spinsters don't get about us. The younger women who possibly also believe in God, they are pleasant and don't have all of these expectations, or act up all the time. An issue we have now in modern life, more and more, is how few you can even find that have been brought up with any faith, any more.

My wife was 32 when I met her and I was just shy of 40.

As to what let me know things wouldn't work out quickly with other women, I think a large part of this was being on a pathway away from an incredibly wicked and awful life I had previously lived, anyone who reminded me of features of this previous life was instantly unpalatable. These were the dates that never happened, party girls, wantonly materialistic girls, egotistical girls, 'current thing' girls, drama girls, tattoo girls.

Then on the dates that did happen, I guess you could take two angles, what I expected, and what she presented.

I expected that she would like me, find me handsome, interesting and engaging. I expected that conversation would flow and never stop or run out. In my previous life there was a thing referred to as a DNA tug; an innate sense you get that you are with someone who could mother your offspring, this is deeper than simple physical attraction. I expected that the woman would have her life together, not be flaky, childish or disrespectful. I wanted to meet someone who was strong and would make a valuable partner in life rather than a project that required my constant attention. This all sounds highly egotistical as I read it back, but two things stand out, most girls didn't like me that much and I wasn't interested in 'winning someone over', and secondly I had no interest in 'developing' someone else's character to be suitable [not even sure that's possible].

In terms of what was presented by women where it was clear there was no future. Discussing 'modern' feminist ideas as preferable to traditional gender roles. Being unsure or not wanting children. Expressing a dislike of traditional aspects of her country or religion. Any support of abortion or LGBT 'progressiveness'. Lack of any personality, opinion, joy of life. Overly sarcastic or masculine in conversation.

Other guys mileage may differ on these, this is just more or less how my wife and I found each other, became best friends, married, multiplied, and now lead a life filled with nappies and lack of sleep while still finding time to read the kids their bible stories every night before bed. I'm a better Christian now than I was in those days, but if I had advice for myself back then, it would be the words that my own father told me.

'Marriage is a three legged stool, with man, woman, and God being the legs. Without God, the stool will fall over.' Courtship is the same, God needs to approve of the match or it wont go anywhere or stand the test of time. Get right with God, and then ask yourself if God would approve of the woman. I believe this is true irrespective of the man or the woman.

 

[Blade Runner]

I like this point. God's providence is also sheltering us from ourselves, so we do not become the one who "causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin." Worse than being thrown into the sea with a millstone around our neck. So if God keeps us away from good women who, because of our sinful past and broken nature we would harm and lead into sin, He protects both those women and ourselves from further sin and corruption.

The difficulty is, how to live in the world as a "monk"? I don't believe it is possible. We are among others and for many of us the temptation to sexual sin is too strong, or the temptations toward anger, hatred, depression, sloth, etc. while isolated are too great, that we realize the need of a female partner whether she is a good or bad woman. I think this is something necessary for our salvation that God knows too, and plans for us who are not deserving of the best women. We get what we deserve when it comes to women, in reality much better than what we deserve.

I couldn't disagree more with this sentiment and it's all too common on the forum. It's very transactional in the way that most of the religious people talk about it, and please know that I am Orthodox as well, and it is important to me, too. The way I'd like to convince people that it's bad reasoning or a bad outlook is that it suggests if you do X you'll get Z (from God) and that's just not how the world works. From a religious point of view, a Christian one, if you do good things the teaching is to expect bad things to happen to you! And I'm not saying that this is a rule or that it happens all the time, but it is clearly the christian teaching; read the sermon on the mount.

The presumption that if you had a particular type of lifestyle and, due to that, you are going to be a stumbling block for others (women) is just not in line with the history of men or biology, necessarily at all. I don't even come from the point of view that I, or many others on the forum at this point, were full on debauched players or disgusting male chauvinists. God keeping you away from good women? I find that sentiment to be bizarre. The accusation seems like you're an abuser of drugs or people. If that's the case, sure, but I highly doubt it is for most people on here earnestly trying to find a good match and live a christian life.

At least your second paragraph is, in my view, more realistic. But if you go to a 3rd world country, the fact is, "magically", you get a much better woman. Should we call the geographic location, therefore, a "God"? I find all of this thinking super strange.

 

[Blade Runner]

My wife was 32 when I met her and I was just shy of 40.

I just think it's an age thing, especially after you turn 35 as a man, let's say. The West offers one little to nothing and if you don't pair up from age 27-32 you are totally SOL, and think of it - if you are a particular ethnicity or religion - in the modern day you have super slim pickings. The problem with the internet is that everyone else assumes the person typing is a complaining, internet loser. The truth is that the modern life, and marriage, turns out to be frankly not appetizing to men when they can't get women who are young/attractive/fertile, understanding that they are trading many things for the youth and fertility, that's the point. Women being ascendant in societies is always a marker of a major decline, and regardless of what egalitarians or propagandists bloviate about, it makes men indifferent about working hard, or continuing the work and attention, after they've already done it for decades.

 

[Fidem_Spes_Amare]

But if you go to a 3rd world country, the fact is, "magically", you get a much better woman. Should we call the geographic location, therefore, a "God"? I find all of this thinking super strange.

It's a toss-up whether the famed traditional foreign wife is a real possibility or not for any particular man, from experiences shared on this forum. I'd say it's still God's providence at work, although I hate to argue about theology.

 

[Ouroboros]

This could partly be an age issue. As you age money becomes a greater factor in your SMV, especially if you're dating younger women. The OP is in his 40s I believe?

 

[Blade Runner]

It's a toss-up whether the famed traditional foreign wife is a real possibility or not for any particular man, from experiences shared on this forum. I'd say it's still God's providence at work, although I hate to argue about theology.

This could partly be an age issue. As you age money becomes a greater factor in your SMV, especially if you're dating younger women. The OP is in his 40s I believe?

These considerations are all confounded by who the particular person is, no doubt. There are a lot of above average guys on the forum, I'm sure, and there are a lot of average to below average guys as well. That's why it is difficult talking about these issues, for any given person, or truly understanding what's possible for him. The kicker is that young women in most of the world aren't that interested relationships unless the guy they meet is a distinct departure from what their surroundings are. With high wealth and money in the west, that makes western women untenable propositions. It should go without saying that if you don't have money in your late 30s or 40s, of course it's not going to be any different in another country. It is sorta weird when guys who did OK due to promiscuous modern culture/dating, etc in the last few decades, when they were younger, act like it's strange that they aren't as successful when older, and don't really have all that much in money or resources, overall. That's sorta like a woman expecting to continue to get attention from men after her 20s.

Again, my stated position is that there are small numbers of overall above average to highest value men in the west, but they dwarf the number of above average to knockout women. What an above average man objectively "deserves" to be "equally yoked" given all he has accomplished, let's say from the US, is only possible in a location where geo arbitrage is possible, at this point - and where young women with a particular genetic exist who are interested in men at all ages, and perhaps even more at older ages, for reasons we've stated.

 

[MagyarMan]

I have been in relationships where I am 100% convinced there was genuine love and burning desire (inc. some light cooking, cleaning, true affection and waking up in the morning with her hugging me tightly), yet it's coupled with this 'you need to buy me stuff' dynamic that comes up after 2-3 months.

Seems like you are co- habitating with women before marriage. You will not find a traditional woman this way.

 

[Road2Damascus]

It could very well but at this point in the cycle much of the sheltering is because it will bring forth worse outcomes for everyone involved. The problem is that in general, this goes against the "be fruitful and multiply" command that everyone thinks God gave (to us). I personally don't see all that many high value women in any capacity, except for pockets of various foreign countries, where they were lucky enough to have parents and grow up in a poor(er) country that didn't spoil by materialism. The number of churchgoing 7+s I can recall in my entire lifetime, and I think this is part of the modern/materialistic cycle (yes, I'm from the US and orthodox immigrants spoil their daughters, on average, tremendously like most other americans with anything), is small. 6+ among orthodox was as low as 5% also - just saying. But also this was the time in the world where women weren't taught to put family first - even girls born in the mid 1970s weren't thinking of marriage by age 25 in the US. So there's that. It must be considered. That's 50 years at this point, my friends. And things have gotten way worse.

I know this sounds pessimistic and I do agree with "first look at yourself", but I personally know high numbers of men who do very well, were not and are not ugly, are over 6 foot tall, etc that didn't meet very many people at all that were even reasonable partners, forget good looking, for years of the mid 20s to age 40, even. Oh and by the way, these are not pickup artists and players.

Agreed totally, environment plays a major major role.

 

[Blade Runner]

It seems to me that 2023 will make a lot of decisions for us, when it really comes down to it. We will always have choices, and various options or escape routes, but they may or may not be as readily available. We shall see.

 

[Sandalwood Peak]

When it comes to the subject of dating foreign women we have to take certain considerations into account.

Women behave within the context of what is acceptable where they are and their own bias her upbringing molded into her. Obviously this behavior will be different region to region but I fail to see how it’s a direct representation of her worth. The expectation expressed here of a real woman desiring nothing material from a man is bizarre.

You as a foreigner are an outsider. That means that the pressure increases ten fold. Not only does a woman need to be in a certain mental state to date a foreigner but the interactions are more robotic, commonalities are uncertain, she doesn’t know how to act and the onus is on you to kind of make it interesting for her. This dynamic can easily create a situation where a woman will try to lead the interactions to compensate and at that point cultural differences begin to shine.

Women that ”submit” are not really submitting to you but are submitting to family life. What might be perceived as you being pleased is actually more of responsibility being offloaded on you while she positions herself as “the good wife” in the optics scheme of things where if you mess up being a man the only way forward is down.

In all I think people seeking foreign women have a very skewed image of women. In normal life human beings usually just pair up locally. Funny how men sign up for hard trials they thinking it’s more easier than what’s familiar.

 

[Going strong]

I think people seeking foreign women have a very skewed image of women.

Funny how men sign up for hard trials they thinking it’s more easier than what’s familiar.

And, when, in the Western world "what's familiar" is of extremely low quality, what happens then, what should one do? What happens then is that Western men not "seeking foreign women" are I think, making a mistake, considering.

Also, don't you think that accepting for wife an entitled career-oriented overweight Western woman (the "familiar" choice), is "signing up for hard trials", and doing so out of laziness?

Personnally, almost all Western men I know who have married a respectful foreign woman (Slavic, Latin or Asian), are living happy and raising a dignified family. Meanwhile, those who chose the "familiar" choice of a career-obsessed, foodie and dour Western woman, well, ask them if they're happy.

 

[Sandalwood Peak]

And, when, in the Western world "what's familiar" is of extremely low quality, what happens then, what should one do? What happens then is that Western men not "seeking foreign women" are I think, making a mistake, considering.

Also, don't you think that accepting for wife an entitled career-oriented overweight Western woman (the "familiar" choice), is "signing up for hard trials", and doing so out of laziness?

Personnally, almost all Western men I know who have married a respectful foreign woman (Slavic, Latin or Asian), are living happy and raising a dignified family. Meanwhile, those who chose the "familiar" choice of a career-obsessed, foodie and dour Western woman, well, ask them if they're happy.

I'm no defender of women, I'm actually very hard on women but in life we have to be objective.

What are these men happy about?

What is there to be a happy about with a woman you barely understand?

Are they being "treated like kings"?

What a silly western concept. Perhaps the true happiness is foreigners don't remind you of yourself, your own people.

The western women you speak of are essentially prostitutes. Youtube is filled with these back and forths with prostitutes for sound bites. We can venture a guess that this laser focus on prostitutes we have in the manosphere doesn't stem from the purest of intentions. Is it impossible to find a woman in the west? Are men in other countries all happily married or something? How are all these western men able to maintain their pure Godly innocence so well that they're worthy of picking from someone elses bag?

People have to let go of this western individualism. It's not about you.

Do you integrate into her culture? Some do, most don't. So what else is there to do but to teach her to be an American? No fun dealing with alien behavior from a mate. What kind of children are formed from these unions? A childhood where you have trouble fitting in, probably estranged from extended family because they want money and a man should never be "taken advantage of". Parents don't share no heritage, have to pick a side.

What kind of a future is that? What exactly has been rectified? You reproduced and that's all that matters?

If you're sickened with the west so much then do the right thing and leave and never return. That would be the honorable thing. Perhaps there across the sea with which ever group you choose to call your new brothers you can meet a wife as God intended, contributing to the community and reaping some benefit.

 

[Going strong]

If you're sickened with the west so much then do the right thing and leave and never return. That would be the honorable thing. Perhaps there across the sea with which ever group you choose to call your new brothers you can meet a wife as God intended, contributing to the community and reaping some benefit.

Yes, thank you, that's exactly what I did, and I am very happy with this life choice.

Now, why would you assume that one cannot integrate in a foreign country?

If you're of the same perceived "colour", and same Religion, and you learn the language, that's it, you're a member of the local community. If on top of that you marry a local woman and have a baby with her, you're even much more a "local" than single natives (except monks of course), in my opinion.

The other option is when migrants are so numerous (see Western Europe) that they become the new settlers of the land and marry fertile native women, but that's another thing to discuss... In this case, it's the weak natives who become foreign.

By the way, talking about Slavic relationships and money, I wonder what native Ukrainians think or feel about their richest, most famous woman, Svitolina, marrying a non-Orthodox Caribbean multi-millionaire sport star, and having with him a "diverse" baby named after an English-language Satanic rock band? Are they accepted by their neighbours? Why has the Ukrainian army refused to enlist them (in spite of Svitolina's statements of wanting to kill Russians) or even take their money?

So, I guess that even if one has enormous amounts of money, a "Slavic relationship" with a coloured man, is not accepted by the xenophobic Ukrainian society. It would be more tolerated in Russia (as Russia is much more tolerant with 'diverse' ethnicities than the other Orthodox countries), but certainly not in Bulgaria. I don't know about Serbia.

By the way, Ukrainians have even started to persecute (relatively) wealthy Hungarian-Ukrainians who date Slavic women in Carpathian cities. Orban and the Croatian president are denouncing these xenophobic State-approved actions by Ukrainians.

So, well, if you consider a relationship with a Slavic woman without being yourself Slavic, just avoid Ukraine. This, in spite of the Ukrainian president being himself a non-Slavic dude married with a Slavic woman, contradictory as it may be.

 

[Sandalwood Peak]

Yes, thank you, that's exactly what I did, and I am very happy with this life choice.

Then you did it the right way in my opinion. I'm not against people living their life, I can't control others. The point at the end of the day is what can we as men do to make our world better.

It's interesting to reflect on people's ideas and motivations. I'm not a fan of selfishness and self-centeredness especially when it's something serious like having children. Children out of wedlock might as be considered a natural far reaching catastrophe as an example. People sometime confuse what may feel as original thoughts with a particular view they absorbed. It's all so mottled that reflection is key. You mention slavs, well in my view Russians and most likely Ukrainians as well, are very in tune with western culture. It's so heavily reflected in Russian society it's almost laughable. Pop songs very reminiscent of their American equivalent. Movies, books, laws, you name it. Carbon copies at times. Obscure western figures and ideas being mentioned amongst people. So this idea that a Slavic woman, who like all human beings, was taught to speak, think and act by her surroundings is sitting around waiting to be agreeable and subservient to a western man is strange. The disappointment she is not even stranger. If she's so great why aren't local men marrying her? Is it because Americans for example have got it together so well that it's an opportunity she can't pass up? Nevertheless a woman should be expected to be humble enough to never ask, only be content that her children will be under the guiding arms of a western man, a worldly man of many talents, the giver of opportunities.

What is the hope here amongst some of these cultural connoisseurs? That her community taught her to not cheat and argue? So this is our future as human beings? A race to the bottom scavenging bushes across the planet hoping to find a woman with little needs?

At some point it is us who have to make the change. I'm sure you're aware that the consensus is "we're not allowed to do anything", but even the smallest sacrifices aren't being made. The tv box is still too enticing for many to let go even if it pushes satanic ideas. I'm glad you understood that and sacrificed your comfort. I'm not trying to rag on you, I'm just exploring the subject.

 

[kievanrus]

Yes, thank you, that's exactly what I did, and I am very happy with this life choice.

Now, why would you assume that one cannot integrate in a foreign country?

If you're of the same perceived "colour", and same Religion, and you learn the language, that's it, you're a member of the local community. If on top of that you marry a local woman and have a baby with her, you're even much more a "local" than single natives (except monks of course), in my opinion.

The other option is when migrants are so numerous (see Western Europe) that they become the new settlers of the land and marry fertile native women, but that's another thing to discuss... In this case, it's the weak natives who become foreign.

By the way, talking about Slavic relationships and money, I wonder what native Ukrainians think or feel about their richest, most famous woman, Svitolina, marrying a non-Orthodox Caribbean multi-millionaire sport star, and having with him a "diverse" baby named after an English-language Satanic rock band? Are they accepted by their neighbours? Why has the Ukrainian army refused to enlist them (in spite of Svitolina's statements of wanting to kill Russians) or even take their money?

So, I guess that even if one has enormous amounts of money, a "Slavic relationship" with a coloured man, is not accepted by the xenophobic Ukrainian society. It would be more tolerated in Russia (as Russia is much more tolerant with 'diverse' ethnicities than the other Orthodox countries), but certainly not in Bulgaria. I don't know about Serbia.

By the way, Ukrainians have even started to persecute (relatively) wealthy Hungarian-Ukrainians who date Slavic women in Carpathian cities. Orban and the Croatian president are denouncing these xenophobic State-approved actions by Ukrainians.

So, well, if you consider a relationship with a Slavic woman without being yourself Slavic, just avoid Ukraine. This, in spite of the Ukrainian president being himself a non-Slavic dude married with a Slavic woman, contradictory as it may be.

Let me clear some things up for foreigners looking into Ukraine.


Ukraine has always been extremely diverse and multiethnic. Svitolina is from Odessa, where people have ethnic Russian, Ukrainian, Armenia, Georgian, Turkish, Greek, Jewish roots. It has always been known as a melting pot even during the empire and USSR days. Catherine founded the city and sent her subjects from all over. Dnepropetrovsk has always had some of the largest Jewish populations in Europe. Kharkiv and Odessa are also home to significant Asian populations including Tatars. Spend one day in Kharkiv's main outdoor market and you'll understand just how diverse Ukraine is.

Ukrainian leadership has always been ethnically diverse. Rinat Akhmetov, a grey cardinal pulling strings for the last 30 years is ethnic Volga Tatar and a Sunni Muslim. Avakov is ethnic Armenian from Azerbaijan. Kolomoisky and Pinchuk are mixed Jewish.

So to answer, Ukrainians don't really care about ethnic background. Ukrainian has long been a civic identity, not necessarily based in ethnicity. There are countless examples of prominent Ukrainians who have multiethnic backgrounds. A great example of Afro-Ukrainian politician is Beleniuk: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...ines-olympic-gold-wrestler-and-first-black-mp

The idea of a "slavic" identity shared by members is incredibly inaccurate/outdated. Ukrainians and Russians have much more in common with Tatars, Armenians or Kazakhs than they do with Czechs or Croatians. 1,500 years ago things were different, but the Russian empire standardized culture amongst its subjects. At best, Slavic tribes during the Roman era were loosely connected confederations of peoples.

 

[Going strong]

^OK, you've given examples of Ukraine taking in many people from many (similar-looking) ethnic groups. But, haven't you noticed something in all the examples you're giving? All the people Ukraine takes in, happen to be of pale skin... Now, for Afro-descendent people, can you give examples of successful Ukrainian integration? Mind you, Africans are all over Europe since the 60s...

I mean, I've been giving here the case study of Svitolina (the only female Ukrainian that's known and admired worldwide) and her Black husband and "Sky"-named "mixed race" child.

Ukrainian society should adore them, especially as Svitolina is cute and a tennis genius while her sport-star Black husband is the best showman of tennis, and is also a smart thoughtful polyglot whom all journalists love.

Yet, xenophobic Zelensky refuses to acknowledge them. He's (apparently) prohibited them to travel to the Australian Open. The Ukrainian army refuses to enlist Svitolina's Black husband, whereas Sergey Stakhovski, being pale, has been enlisted right away. Svitolina and her Afro-descendent husband on the other hand, are totally invisible and rejected by Ukrainian institutions, people and marketing agencies. Sad.

So, I'll believe your "Ukraine is tolerant" when huge international stars Svitolina and Gael (who de facto are the face of the modern "EU-integrated" Ukraine, as much as Zelensky wants them gone) are invited by PR-obsessed Zelensky or Ukrainian media.

It won't happen and we both know why. It's because Ukraine and its Azov crowd hates and has always hated dark-skinned people. Yes, Ukraine somehow accepts the ethnic groups you've described, but it's because they don't look "dark", and it's only temporary acceptance.

By the way, even the isolated examples you're giving are rather untrue. Once, a few years ago, I was in Uman and I saw middle class Nazi Ukrainians chase Jewish people around like it was 1936.

Ukrainians also secretly hate the Uber rich people you've been describing above, the rich Jewish or Muslim multi millionaires, by the way, and since 2014 they hate the Russians, too. Matter of fact most Ukrainians also hate and profoundly despise the weak Western Europeans, too. And they hate on the Chinese, too, on principle.

So, to sum it up, Ukrainians, who are the world-media darlings at the moment, almost always hate anyone who's not ethnically Ukrainian. It would therefore be a bad idea to try to marry a Ukrainian if one is a foreigner, rich or poor.

 

[kievanrus]

^OK, you've given examples of Ukraine taking in many people from many (similar-looking) ethnic groups. But, haven't you noticed something in all the examples you're giving? All the people Ukraine takes in, happen to be of pale skin... Now, for Afro-descendent people, can you give examples of successful Ukrainian integration? Mind you, Africans are all over Europe since the 60s...

I mean, I've been giving here the case study of Svitolina (the only female Ukrainian that's known and admired worldwide) and her Black husband and "Sky"-named "mixed race" child.

Ukrainian society should adore them, especially as Svitolina is cute and a tennis genius while her sport-star Black husband is the best showman of tennis, and is also a smart thoughtful polyglot whom all journalists love.

Yet, xenophobic Zelensky refuses to acknowledge them. He's (apparently) prohibited them to travel to the Australian Open. The Ukrainian army refuses to enlist Svitolina's Black husband, whereas Sergey Stakhovski, being pale, has been enlisted right away. Svitolina and her Afro-descendent husband on the other hand, are totally invisible and rejected by Ukrainian institutions, people and marketing agencies. Sad.

So, I'll believe your "Ukraine is tolerant" when huge international stars Svitolina and Gael (who de facto are the face of the modern "EU-integrated" Ukraine, as much as Zelensky wants them gone) are invited by PR-obsessed Zelensky or Ukrainian media.

It won't happen and we both know why. It's because Ukraine and its Azov crowd hates and has always hated dark-skinned people. Yes, Ukraine somehow accepts the ethnic groups you've described, but it's because they don't look "dark", and it's only temporary acceptance.

By the way, even the isolated examples you're giving are rather untrue. Once, a few years ago, I was in Uman and I saw middle class Nazi Ukrainians chase Jewish people around like it was 1936.

Ukrainians also secretly hate the Uber rich people you've been describing above, the rich Jewish or Muslim multi millionaires, by the way, and since 2014 they hate the Russians, too. Matter of fact most Ukrainians also hate and profoundly despise the weak Western Europeans, too. And they hate on the Chinese, too, on principle.

So, to sum it up, Ukrainians, who are the world-media darlings at the moment, almost always hate anyone who's not ethnically Ukrainian. It would therefore be a bad idea to try to marry a Ukrainian if one is a foreigner, rich or poor.

For most people, there is no such thing as ethnically Ukrainian, it's long been a civic identity. Hence why it could be considered a civil war, as many of Ukraine's military leadership has Russian roots.

Afro-Ukrainian olympic medalist and Zelensky's party MP: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...ines-olympic-gold-wrestler-and-first-black-mp

Ukrainians with ancestors Tatar, Georgian, Armenian, Russians look similar? From American perspective yes, for anyone actually living in this area of the world they are radically different. Even more so than black vs white Americans who share the same language. IMO its more about linguistic or cultural differences than skin color or eye shape.

Here is a race guide used by Soviet police: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/sketches-soviet-police-ethnicity/ Jew has always been considered a considered a different nationality.

The concept of "race" as used in the USA doesn't really apply to Russia/Ukraine. What race is a Daghestani, Avar, Mari, Gypsy, Uzbek, or Tatar? The American definition of race defines Turks as White but Kazakhs as Asian. Yet they are both Turkic peoples with understanable languages. Persians and French share an Indo-European language, but Hungarians and Estonians speak an Uralic language alien to Europe, yet are "White".

There are elements of racism and xenophobia in Ukraine for sure. But as someone who lives here, I disagree that it Ukraine is overwhelmingly racist towards people who speak Ukrainian or Russian. For English speakers from third countries, sure.

For men seeking to marry a Ukrainian woman, it is highly recommended you be fluent in Ukrainian and Russian. They are not that hard, and share many similarities with other European languages. for Arabic/Chinese/Indians it may be harder lexically.

 

[Going strong]

Afro-Ukrainian olympic medalist and Zelensky's party MP: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...ines-olympic-gold-wrestler-and-first-black-mp

Note that this man's African father was able to come train in the (Former) Soviet Union before 1990, thanks to Russian academics, custom agents and officials. And instead of thanking the Russian (not Ukrainian) people who welcomed his Rwandan father and gave him Soviet papers, the son is now actively trying to kill Russian men.

Anyway I'm not surprised that this African Ukrainian became tight friend with Zelensky at first sight. Both are similar, living in Ukraine but not part of the ethnic historical Orthodox group. Two outsiders, two binationals for whom the war is a golden opportunity for revenge against the majority.

In any case, once the war is over, both are going to be kicked out of (former) Ukraine, either by the Russians or by the Azov Nazi dudes. Actually, if the Ukrainian nationalists win, they'll hang Zelensky and this African dude from the same rope. The Russians, being much kinder and more respectful, would just prosecute and jail or deport them.

Ah and Svitolina also is going to be terminated or kicked out with her Caribbean husband if the Ukrainian Azov nationalists win. She should think about this before offering her money to the Ukrainian army. If Ukrainian nationalists win, they'll purge the country like it's the new Rwanda Bandera genocide.

Which reminds me that you haven't answered me about why the Ukrainian army took Sergey Stakhovski in, but rejected Slavic Svitolina's Black husband, even though he's a better fighter and can read the user-handbook of the Caesar guns.

Well, best of luck anyway to the hardy foreigners who would be willing, against odds and logics, to marry a Ukrainian woman at the moment.

 

[kievanrus]

FYI Russian is also a civic identity -- note how many Russians with Tatar, Buryat, Chechen, Daghestani, Avar ancestry are in leadership roles. Shoigu himself is half Tulan. Most oligarchs have Jewish or other mixed ancestries. Key cultural figures like Viktor Tsoi are Asian. Putin's government has always promoted immigration from central Asia and other Russian speaking countries.

There is no "historical orthodox group" ethnicity in Ukraine. Kievan Rus only ever covered Kiev, Chernigov, and central Ukraine. But not places like Odessa or Kharkiv. Crimea is even more interesting: Greeks, Scythians, and Goths before any Slavs showed up. Modern Ukraine, as Putin says, is a patchwork fake state built by Lenin.

By the time The Kievan state adopted Christianity, it was already multiethnic consisting of Slavic and Finno-uralic tribes. Finno-uralic people don't even speak an Indo-European language -- Persian is more closely related to Russian than Estonian is. Over the next 1000 years, more people such as Tatars would be assimilated in the melting pot.

"In 883, he conquered the Drevlians, imposing a fur tribute on them. By 885 he had subjugated the Poliane, Severiane, Vyatichi, and Radimichs, forbidding them to pay further tribute to the Khazars. Oleg continued to develop and expand a network of Rusʹ forts in Slav lands, begun by Rurik in the north.[77]"

Kievan Rus' - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't know why the UA army rejects certain people and takes others. But I'm sure you'll find plenty of fighters with different ancestries.

Azov Nazi dudes are a tiny but vocal minority. They exist for sure, anyone who lives in Ukraine can tell you that. Their concept of Ukraine being a country of Ukrainian speaking Ukrainians is simply delusional, which is why their vision will collapse. Spend a week in any major city and you'll realize that Russian is still widely spoken despite the conflict, and that most people have multi-ethnic ancestry if they take a DNA test.

Regarding the fate of Zelensky's leadership: Putin is a practical man. If he could turn Zelensky's staff to do his bidding, he would in a heartbeat. Study what Putin did in Chechnya. IMO he will eventually appoint a Kadyrov type figure to rule Ukraine .

And yes I agree, foreigners should beware of marrying a Ukrainian woman. It's not 1990 anymore and they know their SMV. They won't hesitate to branch swing to a superior male.