How Old Is The Earth?

[Full disclosure; I haven't really read anything in this thread, except the title of the OP.]

The time-span and sequence for facilitating/creating life on earth was in six creative 'days', this is true.

As for the universe, and planet earth itself:
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". (Genesis 1:1)

"In the beginning"
could be thousands, millions, or billions of years ago.
 
Did the years before Man matter to God?
As an aside, since the spirit realm is not composed/affected by mass/gravity, I have wondered if the concept of "time" actually exists in heaven at all; if past/present/future/'times and seasons' are concepts that only exist in the physical realm. (This would also help explain how God can exist into the infinite past, a concept that humans cannot truly fathom.)
 

Philonous

Sparrow
Protestant
Well, this is one of these things that I want to at least leave a word or two about, as I’d wholly agree with any YEC that “old Earth paleontology” has been very much an intellectual helpmeet to human evolutionists and atheists—a non-scientific “science” created by atheists with the intent of spreading atheism, encouraging hedonism—yet even so, I am not a YEC myself. This, despite being Christian.

Then people say, “Well, why aren’t you a YEC?”

I’m not a YEC because I don’t believe that you have to interpret every verse of the Bible literally in order to be a socially conservative Christian. That is, in order to stand up for innocence and chastity, stand firmly against gay marriage and abortion, against porn and chemical contraception—against human evolution and the ban on teaching anything scriptural within any American tax-funded school whatsoever—that you necessarily have to take every line of the Bible literally.

Rather, what I see going on is the persecution of Christians throughout the western hemisphere, a persecution that began with materialistic gentile oligarchical leaders joining hands with Christianity-hating Jewish bankers, with this combined group then making a concerted effort to use any and every mathematically-inclined pendant in every western university as ideological weapons against Christians and their principles for virtuous living.

And so you have an ideological war going on, a war where perspectives become like weapons in the mouths of men who function like armies. And so if one army is called “old Earth paleontology”—or any model of the Earth’s history that exceeds 6,000 years in length—and the other army is called “Young Earth Creationism”, or a Biblically literalist model that absolutely doesn’t exceed 6,000 years in length—then you pick which army you support, and then do everything possible to champion its soldiers and wave its banners, stamping-out any sort of dissent that might impede the overall mission.

But to give an example of the Bible taking poetic license. A fellow on here the other day brought up 1 Kings 8:39 to reference a scriptural passage that conveys “inner morality” and “conscience”, with the passage reading, “…then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men).”

And so you have the human heart being almost universally symbolic for both passions and conscience. But even so, there are no heart transplant cases on record where, upon completing the surgery, the patient is devoid of all morality or conscience—a sociopath or psychopath.

And so that’s a biblical use of metaphor. There should be an understanding on behalf of the reader that a more lengthy concept has been conveyed in a more abridged and poetic form—something that’s easy to remember and recite, yet isn’t meant to be perceived as physically accurate.

And there are others. Christ’s admonishment of “if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out”—obviously, a one-eyed man can lust as easily as a 2-eyed one. But it’s meant to convey moral significance, the need to make sacrifices—sometimes rather dramatic ones—in order to avoid sinfulness. The conveyance is worthwhile and the model is poetic—but it’s not to be interpreted as a “how to guide” for overcoming bodily temptation.

And so what length of the Earth in years do I myself ascribe to?

Maybe a hundred thousand years, maybe a million. It allows time for a very hot new planet to cool, shaping and hardening its worldwide tectonic face, letting its atmosphere sort itself out. There is a weird beauty in those outwardly mechanical processes, one I don’t believe is lost on the Creator (seeing as He created them).

I’m an artist myself, and though I might be blown-away by the visual extravagance of CGI-created movies, I still enjoy seeing the gradual step-by-step processes of hand-rendered paintings. Enjoy it a lot.

Beyond that, the reason I don’t go with the 6,000 figure is because I’m also somewhat of a believer in Plato’s Atlantis, and there really wouldn’t be enough time in a 6,000-year framework for that to come about—not without leaving very direct physical evidence, much as we have for the existence of the ancient Mesopotamian cultures. Nonetheless, there are strong similarities between the meso-American archeo-astronomical pyramids and the Egyptian pyramids which suggest they both sprung from a common culture.

And no, I am not convinced the scientific dating on either the Pyramid of Cheops or the Pyramid of Cholula is anything close to accurate. I think they’re both several thousand years older than credited.

Therefore, I do counter “established science” in my viewpoints—albeit perhaps not in the way anyone’s ecclesiastical “army” wants me to.

Yet did not Jesus tell the apostles he still had “much” to tell them, although they couldn’t bear it now?

Likewise, there were no doubt truths that would have been impractical to reveal in that era of civilization’s development—people would have nothing to associate them with, to build anything with. Almost pointless for the Holy Spirit to explain “binary code” to the apostles in Roman Palestine (or for them to then share it with anyone else).

Thing is, there now ought to be a harmonious meshing between what western man (and increasingly the world) accepts as “scientific truths”, and what the Bible teaches as Christian truths. There ought not be the wild dichotomy and disharmony which now exists. And although I’d agree—and even insist—the bulk of this problem comes from the Satanic selfishness of man and what passes for his institutions of learning, there’s probably something to be said about the Bible itself being more a rudimentary soteriology than a comprehensive cosmology.

It’s important to understand there’s God and then there’s the devil, there’s heaven and then there’s hell—and to pursue the former elements while absolutely shunning the latter ones. Important to grasp these very basic facts. Yet I believe once Christ returns more is going to be revealed, and then you absolutely will see a comprehensive (and practically useful) dovetailing of our religious perspectives with our scientific ones. An adjustment of the ones on the scientific side—but also a fleshing-out of the ones on the religious side.

On a final note, let me say this.

What you have on this forum amounts to “an online free-enquiry discussion for Christians”. Meaning, the only prerequisite is that you be a Christian, rather than specifically being a Christian of the same church Roosh has joined (ROCOR—he joined as of this year!—not that long ago!).

That’s what makes it interesting, as it pulls a much wider range of contributors than you’d get if it were “for members of ROCOR only”.

Now, it so happens “age of the Earth” is one subject in which the ROCOR has no official position, and so we can have all sorts of discussions about it here. But should the entrance requirements of this forum constrict, then expect the discussions to likewise grow curtailed.

Monasteries are boring. One can say, “interestingness is overrated”—to some people it is—but you’re never going to see much dynamic at a monastery. Pray, eat, tend a garden, go to bed, repeat for 40 years, and maybe you’re more assured of heaven. In the meantime, don’t be surprised if your entire online forum takes its own “vow of silence”.
 

Elicola

 
Banned
“age of the Earth” is one subject in which the ROCOR has no official position,

We can use population as a measure of time.

When God created the animals, they were fully grown. ... The same was true for the plants and the trees. ... How about the rocks and mountains? The moment after creation, the valleys and the hills were already in a state of lushness and completion.

God could create fully grown animals and plants, and seemingly ancient rocks. But God created only two humans, and now there are almost 8 billion. That requires doubling 32 times. Wikipedia estimates around 250 million people when Jesus walked the earth. The population has doubled roughly 5 times since then, or once per 400 years.

That still means that the population doubled 27 times from creation to year 0 A.D. At 400 years per doubling, it would take slightly more than 10,000 years. But remember, historically there were wars, famines, plagues, stagnant dark ages and ice ages that slowed or reversed population growth. It took Moses 40 years to guide his tribe across a small desert. Normally, it takes many generations to find new land to support people.

What is the solution? Is Genesis metaphorical, and God created a large initial population (including souls)? Or were cavemen able to reproduce, travel, and population the earth at prodigious rates?

 

ball dont lie

Kingfisher
Gold Member
Once the argument begins that God made all the animals and humans in place, living their existence, then that could have happened 5 seconds ago too, right? Its a very slippery argument.

Look at the Grand Canyon. It clearly took a very long time for its creation given how slowly the water digs down. Much longer than 10k years. Mountains appear to move up at a certain rate and considering how tall the Himalayan mountains are, thats a long time.

The west coast of Africa and the east coast of South America look eerily similar and their movements that can be tracked yearly with GPS appear to suggest they were once part of the same continent.

When we look at the Moon it has millions of craters, each caused by something crashing into it. Since we don't see that happening very often - that took a very long time.

There are many of these types of arguments that the Earth/universe is very, very old.

The creationist counter-argument is that all of these are tests by God who created everything a short time ago, the dinosaur bones in the ground happened a short time ago, oil/coal are not the fossilized remains of millions of years of plant/animal decay under intense pressure, etc.

Again, see my first sentence - if the argument is that God created all of this 6k years ago to look as if the world were billions of years old, but that's just the test - then it gets very dangerous in my opinion. Why isn't the Earth 10 years old and this world is just a test for you.

What is time to God - why does it matter that it might have taken billions of years for things to come into place for mankind to start?

For me personally - I think the Earth is very old. That doesnt need to conflict with Christianity.
 

Truth

Pigeon
Agnostic
Well, this is one of these things that I want to at least leave a word or two about, as I’d wholly agree with any YEC that “old Earth paleontology” has been very much an intellectual helpmeet to human evolutionists and atheists—a non-scientific “science” created by atheists with the intent of spreading atheism, encouraging hedonism—yet even so, I am not a YEC myself. This, despite being Christian.

Then people say, “Well, why aren’t you a YEC?”

I’m not a YEC because I don’t believe that you have to interpret every verse of the Bible literally in order to be a socially conservative Christian. That is, in order to stand up for innocence and chastity, stand firmly against gay marriage and abortion, against porn and chemical contraception—against human evolution and the ban on teaching anything scriptural within any American tax-funded school whatsoever—that you necessarily have to take every line of the Bible literally.

Rather, what I see going on is the persecution of Christians throughout the western hemisphere, a persecution that began with materialistic gentile oligarchical leaders joining hands with Christianity-hating Jewish bankers, with this combined group then making a concerted effort to use any and every mathematically-inclined pendant in every western university as ideological weapons against Christians and their principles for virtuous living.

And so you have an ideological war going on, a war where perspectives become like weapons in the mouths of men who function like armies. And so if one army is called “old Earth paleontology”—or any model of the Earth’s history that exceeds 6,000 years in length—and the other army is called “Young Earth Creationism”, or a Biblically literalist model that absolutely doesn’t exceed 6,000 years in length—then you pick which army you support, and then do everything possible to champion its soldiers and wave its banners, stamping-out any sort of dissent that might impede the overall mission.

But to give an example of the Bible taking poetic license. A fellow on here the other day brought up 1 Kings 8:39 to reference a scriptural passage that conveys “inner morality” and “conscience”, with the passage reading, “…then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men).”

And so you have the human heart being almost universally symbolic for both passions and conscience. But even so, there are no heart transplant cases on record where, upon completing the surgery, the patient is devoid of all morality or conscience—a sociopath or psychopath.

And so that’s a biblical use of metaphor. There should be an understanding on behalf of the reader that a more lengthy concept has been conveyed in a more abridged and poetic form—something that’s easy to remember and recite, yet isn’t meant to be perceived as physically accurate.

And there are others. Christ’s admonishment of “if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out”—obviously, a one-eyed man can lust as easily as a 2-eyed one. But it’s meant to convey moral significance, the need to make sacrifices—sometimes rather dramatic ones—in order to avoid sinfulness. The conveyance is worthwhile and the model is poetic—but it’s not to be interpreted as a “how to guide” for overcoming bodily temptation.

And so what length of the Earth in years do I myself ascribe to?

Maybe a hundred thousand years, maybe a million. It allows time for a very hot new planet to cool, shaping and hardening its worldwide tectonic face, letting its atmosphere sort itself out. There is a weird beauty in those outwardly mechanical processes, one I don’t believe is lost on the Creator (seeing as He created them).

I’m an artist myself, and though I might be blown-away by the visual extravagance of CGI-created movies, I still enjoy seeing the gradual step-by-step processes of hand-rendered paintings. Enjoy it a lot.

Beyond that, the reason I don’t go with the 6,000 figure is because I’m also somewhat of a believer in Plato’s Atlantis, and there really wouldn’t be enough time in a 6,000-year framework for that to come about—not without leaving very direct physical evidence, much as we have for the existence of the ancient Mesopotamian cultures. Nonetheless, there are strong similarities between the meso-American archeo-astronomical pyramids and the Egyptian pyramids which suggest they both sprung from a common culture.

And no, I am not convinced the scientific dating on either the Pyramid of Cheops or the Pyramid of Cholula is anything close to accurate. I think they’re both several thousand years older than credited.

Therefore, I do counter “established science” in my viewpoints—albeit perhaps not in the way anyone’s ecclesiastical “army” wants me to.

Yet did not Jesus tell the apostles he still had “much” to tell them, although they couldn’t bear it now?

Likewise, there were no doubt truths that would have been impractical to reveal in that era of civilization’s development—people would have nothing to associate them with, to build anything with. Almost pointless for the Holy Spirit to explain “binary code” to the apostles in Roman Palestine (or for them to then share it with anyone else).

Thing is, there now ought to be a harmonious meshing between what western man (and increasingly the world) accepts as “scientific truths”, and what the Bible teaches as Christian truths. There ought not be the wild dichotomy and disharmony which now exists. And although I’d agree—and even insist—the bulk of this problem comes from the Satanic selfishness of man and what passes for his institutions of learning, there’s probably something to be said about the Bible itself being more a rudimentary soteriology than a comprehensive cosmology.

It’s important to understand there’s God and then there’s the devil, there’s heaven and then there’s hell—and to pursue the former elements while absolutely shunning the latter ones. Important to grasp these very basic facts. Yet I believe once Christ returns more is going to be revealed, and then you absolutely will see a comprehensive (and practically useful) dovetailing of our religious perspectives with our scientific ones. An adjustment of the ones on the scientific side—but also a fleshing-out of the ones on the religious side.

On a final note, let me say this.

What you have on this forum amounts to “an online free-enquiry discussion for Christians”. Meaning, the only prerequisite is that you be a Christian, rather than specifically being a Christian of the same church Roosh has joined (ROCOR—he joined as of this year!—not that long ago!).

That’s what makes it interesting, as it pulls a much wider range of contributors than you’d get if it were “for members of ROCOR only”.

Now, it so happens “age of the Earth” is one subject in which the ROCOR has no official position, and so we can have all sorts of discussions about it here. But should the entrance requirements of this forum constrict, then expect the discussions to likewise grow curtailed.

Monasteries are boring. One can say, “interestingness is overrated”—to some people it is—but you’re never going to see much dynamic at a monastery. Pray, eat, tend a garden, go to bed, repeat for 40 years, and maybe you’re more assured of heaven. In the meantime, don’t be surprised if your entire online forum takes its own “vow of silence”.
What he said.
 
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