How Should Christians View the country of Israel?

After speaking with a variety of Christians on this issue, I'm still somewhat conflicted on this topic. The consensus among many Christians in the west is the Genesis 12 'I will bless those who bless you' mindset. They say Israel is our ally, Iran/Russia are threats, and we need to stand by and protect Israel at all costs. Obviously there's alot of history with Israel, but I'm often conflicted on how much we should support the nation (more politically). (side note: It seems odd to me that the USA stands with Saudi Arabia but considers Russia a threat.)

On one hand I understand the USA and other Christians wouldn't want Iran to gain influence in that region...but my research shows some questionable origins for the current country of Israel. Going back to 1917 Deceleration, questionable 6 point star on the flag, and globohomo bank influence, how much do you think Christians should support the country of Israel in 2020?
 

Hermetic Seal

Kingfisher
Gold Member
As Paul makes clear in his epistles, it is Christians who are Abraham's seed and the true Israel, and heirs to the promises of Abraham. The modern nation-state of Israel has all sorts of problems, but to me the biggest is that modern-day "Judaism" is not the same religion of Jesus' time and has no particular right to claim a geographical territory for itself.

With the destruction of the temple circa 70 AD in the Jewish War, the Jewish religion of the Old Testament became impossible to practice. No temple, no Levite priests, no Judaism. Jesus' apocalyptic prophecy concerning the temple and Israel was fulfilled in the Jewish war, and the religion of Rabbinical Judaism that emerged was essentially a replacement and grew increasingly distant from the Mosaic law as the Talmudic tradition developed.

Zionists see Americans and especially Evangelical Christians as useful idiots for supporting their agenda. The proliferation of the Scofield Bible and premillennial dispensationalism, despite the dubious credentials of such theology, is not a coincidence given its inherent Jewdolatry.

I would say that we should take the side of Palestinian Christians, who were once a sizeable percentage of the population of what is modern-day Israel, but they've been almost totally displaced from the region at this point.
 

Elipe

Woodpecker
Modern Israel ≠ Ancient Israel. Most modern Jews are Talmudic and elevate the rabbinic traditions above that of the sacred Scriptures. To them, the Talmud, which declares that Jesus Christ boils in hell, is of greater value than the Torah. Those are not the Jews for whom blessing will return blessing on you.

Also Israel is a great source of the corruption currently going on in America. How can you bless a nation that goes out of its way to turn as many people toward Satan as possible? The only resolution to this dilemma is to conclude that the Church is the New Israel, as the Jews have rejected the God of their covenant, and thus, the covenant. We are children of the new covenant, grafted spiritual children of Abraham, not that of Hagar.

It also makes more sense that a nation which blesses Christians will have blessings returned unto it, because we see historically that this is the case: nations that open their arms to Christianity become blessed thousandfold, and grow stronger than ever. Modern Judaism, in contrast, weakens and kills nations. How then can you say that a nation blessing modern Jews returns blessings on itself?
 

jakester318

Sparrow
I'm sympathetic to what Hermetic Seal is saying that the rulers of Israel today may very well see Christians in the West as useful idiots, because I see the blind allegiance they have to Israel (blind as in no matter their current spiritual state, treat them as brothers/sisters, etc.), as terribly misguided. However, and this is my bone of contention with people who identify as Christians but like to brow beat Israel—if you read the New Testament, Paul and Peter in particular battled against many Jews for the supremacy of the gospel message over and against a hybrid law-keeping and faith in Jesus gospel. But at no point did Paul ever command Christians to go against Israel, only that Christians be united in faith and to recognize that not all who claim to be disciples of Jesus are the real deal, therefore they should avoid false teachers. It's my belief that God sees the Israel today as completely in rebellion against him. But, he will correct that at some point. He doesn't intend to leave Israel in their current situation. He will remedy unbelief in Israel and one day, the entire nation of Israel will fear God and obey his Messiah. People who believe in replacement theory that the Church is the New Israel don't understand the bible very well. And they don't understand the Gospel. How can God bless any of us wretched people given how utterly morally bankrupt we all are?

So what should our response be as Christians? Pray for our enemies. Yes, God's own chosen people may very well be the single most vehement enemy of Jesus that exists on the planet. But I doubt that. Communism's leaders have killed millions of faithful Orthodox believers throughout Eastern Europe in the 20th Century. China has committed atrocities against its Christians as well, up to this present day. Islamic nations have slaughtered countless of its Christians. So then, why do many Gentile believers in Jesus seem to keen to single out Israel alone and put the sole blame upon them, when it is so clear that the entire world is arrayed against Jesus and his people? My feeling is because at their core, they hate Jews. And the spirit that is behind this sentiment is the same spirit that led Nazi Germany to exterminate so many Jews. I have no problem looking at an issue and assigning blame to someone or some group. But, I think we ought to be careful that we don't find ourselves trying to right the wrongs committed by Jews because we would then be going against God. "Do not avenge yourselves, my brothers, but leave room for the wrath of God. For it is written: "vengeance is mine to avenge; I will repay, says the Lord."
 

Elipe

Woodpecker
So then, why do many Gentile believers in Jesus seem to keen to single out Israel alone and put the sole blame upon them
Because last I checked, the Chinese and the Muslims do not occupy the highest ranks of our governments and corporate institutions on which many depend for day-to-day life. Last I checked, Communism was invented and pushed by Jews, and right now we are undergoing a (very incompetently executed) communist color revolution.

Attention is a finite resource, so you want to direct your attention toward those who are doing the most and most immediate damage to you and your neighbors.

And I say this as a Christian of Jewish descent. What Jews are doing to Western societies is wrong and should be stopped.
 

Sword and Board

Woodpecker
^ I really despise crypto Jews posing as Christians spell weaving their psychobabble BS to disarm and deceive.

Israel is no friend to Humanity let alone those that believe Jesus Christ is our savior. I would go one step further and believe they are our enemy.
“You will know them by their fruits”
 

infowarrior1

Hummingbird
Modern Israel ≠ Ancient Israel. Most modern Jews are Talmudic and elevate the rabbinic traditions above that of the sacred Scriptures. To them, the Talmud, which declares that Jesus Christ boils in hell, is of greater value than the Torah. Those are not the Jews for whom blessing will return blessing on you.

Also Israel is a great source of the corruption currently going on in America. How can you bless a nation that goes out of its way to turn as many people toward Satan as possible? The only resolution to this dilemma is to conclude that the Church is the New Israel, as the Jews have rejected the God of their covenant, and thus, the covenant. We are children of the new covenant, grafted spiritual children of Abraham, not that of Hagar.

It also makes more sense that a nation which blesses Christians will have blessings returned unto it, because we see historically that this is the case: nations that open their arms to Christianity become blessed thousandfold, and grow stronger than ever. Modern Judaism, in contrast, weakens and kills nations. How then can you say that a nation blessing modern Jews returns blessings on itself?
While God may have a hand in their preservation as an Ethnic Group. I believe he will redeem many of them in the future.(Zechariah 12:10-13).

They will regret in the future the death of Jesus whom they pierced via the Cross. And they will believe in Him.

Right now they are hardened in this disbelief:
 

godfather dust

Ostrich
Gold Member
Israel is a satanic country. Their flag can be interpreted as "666" (6 lines, points, triangles.)

They follow the oral law of the biblical Pharisees which has been codified in the Talmud.

Much like WW2 where the US sided with the Bolsheviks, which proceeded to destroy us through subversion, if the US is involved in the middle East at all, we are with the more wicked side and should be aligned with Russia, Iran, Syria etc.

Although like WW2 neither side was particularly the "good guys," although in this case the side we are with is far more evil than the alternative, whereas in WW2 the axis and allies were a bit closer in degeneracy evil etc
 

Elipe

Woodpecker
While God may have a hand in their preservation as an Ethnic Group. I believe he will redeem many of them in the future.(Zechariah 12:10-13).

They will regret in the future the death of Jesus whom they pierced via the Cross. And they will believe in Him.

Right now they are hardened in this disbelief:
What you call Jews are actually quite ethnically diverse. Do you mean the Ashkenazi? Do you mean the Sephardi? Mizrahi? Beta Israel (Ethiopian)? Cochin (Indian)?

Not all can so clearly trace their lineage back to ancient Israel. Jesus warned us in His own words: "I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." (Rev 2:9)

You shall know them by their fruits.
 

infowarrior1

Hummingbird
What you call Jews are actually quite ethnically diverse. Do you mean the Ashkenazi? Do you mean the Sephardi? Mizrahi? Beta Israel (Ethiopian)? Cochin (Indian)?

Not all can so clearly trace their lineage back to ancient Israel. Jesus warned us in His own words: "I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." (Rev 2:9)

You shall know them by their fruits.
Those who can trace their lineage back to Ancient Israel of course. Those are the ones that those prophecies are speaking about.
 

infowarrior1

Hummingbird
What you call Jews are actually quite ethnically diverse. Do you mean the Ashkenazi? Do you mean the Sephardi? Mizrahi? Beta Israel (Ethiopian)? Cochin (Indian)?

Not all can so clearly trace their lineage back to ancient Israel. Jesus warned us in His own words: "I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." (Rev 2:9)

You shall know them by their fruits.
The Mizrahi seems to fit the description the best. Replacement Theology would make sense if not for Romans 11.
 
The Mizrahi seems to fit the description the best. Replacement Theology would make sense if not for Romans 11.
Agreed. I don't think most bluepilled americans are open to anything except what they learned in their public school. The lineage of mizrahi Jews traces back to the middle east and northern africa. The DNA tests of many a$hkenazi is pure european (meaning NO DNA from the Levant); does that make them even Semitic at all?

 

infowarrior1

Hummingbird
Agreed. I don't think most bluepilled americans are open to anything except what they learned in their public school. The lineage of mizrahi Jews traces back to the middle east and northern africa. The DNA tests of many a$hkenazi is pure european (meaning NO DNA from the Levant); does that make them even Semitic at all?

As the example of Ruth/Rahab shows. It actually isn't a problem when a ethnic foreigner eschews her own people and her own God and adopts them both and marries a Israelite Man. She becomes Israelite.

And her children are Israelite too.
 

Elipe

Woodpecker
The Mizrahi seems to fit the description the best. Replacement Theology would make sense if not for Romans 11.
Replacement Theology still makes sense with Romans 11. After all, gentiles are being grafted into the branches. This means that the verses about blessing Israel now applies to the Church. Those who bless the Church will be blessed. It also says that the original branches were broken off because of unbelief; this is obviously referring to Israelites who did not believe, who have now been broken off from the body.

Romans 11 also says that the unrepentant Jews are our enemies as far as the gospel is concerned, but that as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. Can you say that modern Israel behaves at all anything like the patriarchs? Can you say that their faith was like Abraham's, like Isaac's, like Jacob's, or like Joseph's? The answer is a resounding no. Remember, modern Jews consider the Talmud of greater importance to them than the Torah, which chronicles the lives of the patriarchs. The Torah are to modern Jews, "haha these are just embarrassing dumb things our ancestors did because they were dumb ancient people that did dumb ancient things like forbidding homosexuality".

As the example of Ruth/Rahab shows. It actually isn't a problem when a ethnic foreigner eschews her own people and her own God and adopts them both and marries a Israelite Man. She becomes Israelite.

And her children are Israelite too.
And this illustrates the nature of grafting branches. If a foreigner can be declared "Israelite" by God, and thus blessing that foreigner should return blessings on you, then the same can be said of the Church. And if branches can, conversely, be cut off from the body, the obvious, logical conclusion is that the verse about blessing Israel cannot apply to that branch anymore, not until it is grafted back on.

Ancient Israel was God's foothold in a dark world. The Church is now God's foothold in a dark world.

And again, I want to emphasize fruits. The fruits of blessing the Church has historically returned abundance in blessings, whereas blessing modern Israel has resulted in degeneracy being pushed on us and our children stolen from us to be forced into debauchery.
 

infowarrior1

Hummingbird
Replacement Theology still makes sense with Romans 11. After all, gentiles are being grafted into the branches. This means that the verses about blessing Israel now applies to the Church. Those who bless the Church will be blessed. It also says that the original branches were broken off because of unbelief; this is obviously referring to Israelites who did not believe, who have now been broken off from the body.

Romans 11 also says that the unrepentant Jews are our enemies as far as the gospel is concerned, but that as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. Can you say that modern Israel behaves at all anything like the patriarchs? Can you say that their faith was like Abraham's, like Isaac's, like Jacob's, or like Joseph's? The answer is a resounding no. Remember, modern Jews consider the Talmud of greater importance to them than the Torah, which chronicles the lives of the patriarchs. The Torah are to modern Jews, "haha these are just embarrassing dumb things our ancestors did because they were dumb ancient people that did dumb ancient things like forbidding homosexuality".


And this illustrates the nature of grafting branches. If a foreigner can be declared "Israelite" by God, and thus blessing that foreigner should return blessings on you, then the same can be said of the Church. And if branches can, conversely, be cut off from the body, the obvious, logical conclusion is that the verse about blessing Israel cannot apply to that branch anymore, not until it is grafted back on.

Ancient Israel was God's foothold in a dark world. The Church is now God's foothold in a dark world.

And again, I want to emphasize fruits. The fruits of blessing the Church has historically returned abundance in blessings, whereas blessing modern Israel has resulted in degeneracy being pushed on us and our children stolen from us to be forced into debauchery.
Can you hold to replacement theology whilst believing that they will be saved on a far larger scale in the future? If so then replacement theology is correct. But if not then it's wrong.

God hasn't given up because of his covenant with them. So while there is always a small remnant among them from Christ's advent onward doesn't mean such a change wouldn't occur in future.

Because Prophecy never fails. Including the promise to return the diaspora to the Land.
 
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Blade Runner

Kingfisher
What promise to the "diaspora"?

The Temple was destroyed. The Church is the New Israel. The only place to return to at this point is the heavenly mansion, since we are just sojourners here, we have no "land" - it's not our home.
 

MRAll134

Woodpecker
What promise to the "diaspora"?

The Temple was destroyed. The Church is the New Israel. The only place to return to at this point is the heavenly mansion, since we are just sojourners here, we have no "land" - it's not our home.
I think he means the exit of the Israelites out of Egypt and their settling in the Holy Land - Israel. God made a covenant with Abraham that if he would lead the Israelites to this land, then he would protect them there:

“You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now therefore, if you obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession out of all the peoples. Indeed, the whole earth is mine, but you shall be for me a priestly kingdom and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the Israelites” (Exodus 19:4-6).

Source: https://claudemariottini.com/2014/10/20/gods-covenant-with-israel/

I think God is protecting the Israelites. They are surrounded on all sides by their enemies. Yet, they persist.
 

Aboulia

Robin
I'm sympathetic to what Hermetic Seal is saying that the rulers of Israel today may very well see Christians in the West as useful idiots, because I see the blind allegiance they have to Israel (blind as in no matter their current spiritual state, treat them as brothers/sisters, etc.), as terribly misguided. However, and this is my bone of contention with people who identify as Christians but like to brow beat Israel—if you read the New Testament, Paul and Peter in particular battled against many Jews for the supremacy of the gospel message over and against a hybrid law-keeping and faith in Jesus gospel. But at no point did Paul ever command Christians to go against Israel, only that Christians be united in faith and to recognize that not all who claim to be disciples of Jesus are the real deal, therefore they should avoid false teachers. It's my belief that God sees the Israel today as completely in rebellion against him. But, he will correct that at some point. He doesn't intend to leave Israel in their current situation. He will remedy unbelief in Israel and one day, the entire nation of Israel will fear God and obey his Messiah. People who believe in replacement theory that the Church is the New Israel don't understand the bible very well. And they don't understand the Gospel. How can God bless any of us wretched people given how utterly morally bankrupt we all are?

So what should our response be as Christians? Pray for our enemies. Yes, God's own chosen people may very well be the single most vehement enemy of Jesus that exists on the planet. But I doubt that. Communism's leaders have killed millions of faithful Orthodox believers throughout Eastern Europe in the 20th Century. China has committed atrocities against its Christians as well, up to this present day. Islamic nations have slaughtered countless of its Christians. So then, why do many Gentile believers in Jesus seem to keen to single out Israel alone and put the sole blame upon them, when it is so clear that the entire world is arrayed against Jesus and his people? My feeling is because at their core, they hate Jews. And the spirit that is behind this sentiment is the same spirit that led Nazi Germany to exterminate so many Jews. I have no problem looking at an issue and assigning blame to someone or some group. But, I think we ought to be careful that we don't find ourselves trying to right the wrongs committed by Jews because we would then be going against God. "Do not avenge yourselves, my brothers, but leave room for the wrath of God. For it is written: "vengeance is mine to avenge; I will repay, says the Lord."

You do realize that modern day "Israel" aka "The Jews" aka "The Pharisees" are not at all accepted by and were the enemies of Jesus Christ, as they were the enemies If Jesus Christ is my Lord and Master, I have a duty to oppose those who oppose him. John's Gospel alone tells of 4 times when the apostles/people were afraid to walk the path of Christ for fear of the Jews, and it mentions several times where the Jews are conspiring to kill Christ. The one who is of the same spirit of the Pharisee is the most vehement enemy of Christ in this world.

Christ himself said in the Gospel of Matthew
" O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
God has abandoned them until they acknowledge Christ.

Communism is, always has, and always will be Jewish, it's an inverting and twisting of words. The "proletariat" or "workers" were the ruling class, and the "bourgoisie" were those the ruling class wanted to steal from. It's also why phrases like "glorious soviet freedom" existed. Islam is Judaism for the Arabs, and any anti-jewish criticism you hear from them is just sour grapes because the Jews are better at being Jews than they are. They use the same twisting of phrases. For example, Islam claims to be tolerant of "People of the Book" (Christians, Jews, Muslims) in reality, they see non-heretical Christians as pagan/polytheists for the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, which means they can enslave and degrade them at will when they rule over them.

Obviously Paul doesn't command people to fight Israel because the he lists the battleground as the heavenly one (realm of thought), not the earthly one (realm of matter) (Ephesians 6). You are correct insofar that Christians shouldn't single out the Jews and place them as the single point of blame. Nor are we to despise any for qualities that they cannot control (race/ethnic origin). Again, you're right that it's far easier to push blame on others than to look inwards so many get stuck there. For evil is within the human heart, and it is the human heart, which must be made clean, First clean the inside of the cup and the outside will be clean also.

To get back to the OP. While Israel is a testament to the magnitude of God's long-suffering and mercy, Christians should have nothing but contempt for the idea that the hypocritical ethno-state is the "Israel" of the bible. The level of historical ignorance and mental gymnastics you have to do to conflate those two is beyond my capacity.
 
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