How Should Christians View the country of Israel?

Elipe

Woodpecker
Can you hold to replacement theology whilst believing that they will be saved on a far larger scale in the future? If so then replacement theology is correct. But if not then it's wrong.
Yes. I trust that God will work something out for the salvation of the Jews. They will be humbled at some point. For all you or I know, that humility may come the 110th time. Only then, will they acknowledge that the Lord is God, that He is right, and that Jesus Christ rose and ascended.
 
TL;DR - The Church is Israel.. The Jew is he who rejects Christ..


LINEAGE OF ZIONISM

I've been struggling with this concept since before I discovered Orthodox Christianity. I was crushed to discover the truth around this subject because I know zero other people IRL that agree with the conclusions I've come to around this issue. I have had to abandon the indoctrination of my youth and family tradition in search of what was really going on here.

I grew up protestant, zionist, dispensationalist, premillenialist:
-- My grandfather was a pastor in the intellectual lineage of
-- J. Vernon McGee (directly taught grandfather) who was a disciple of the
-- Scofield study bible.. C. I. Scofield http://www.biblebelievers.com/scofield/index.html a devotee of the teachings of
-- John Nelson Darby, the originator of the idea of a "secret rapture" of the church without warning.

Darby lived from 1800-1882 & originated the rapture theory. When I discovered this I was crushed. Ever since I was in diapers, I remember grandfather teaching the church about "the rapture," and how it could come at any minute because the nation of Israel was reinstated in 1948 and now there is nothing preventing the rapture from occuring. He would say, "Why, it could happen before I even finish speaking tonight.. It could happen any moment."


WAIT, THE RAPTURE ISN'T IN SCRIPTURE? (and how does that relate to what we're talking about?)

You see, he (grandfather) was taught by McGee, who studied faithfully the Scofield commentary, who got his ideas from Darby. Until about a year ago, I didn't know that the rapture theory wasn't widely accepted by all Christians throughout all times. The only problem is, after carefully reading the bible for myself and seeking after Yaweh, rather than trying to follow "christianity" through a denominational lense, I found out that the rapture isn't in Holy Scripture.. Wait a minute, technically "The Trinity" also isn't directly mentioned in Scripture either. However, the Trinity is described by carefully reading the Bible for all it is worth.. The rapture in fact, is not. I read and re-read all of the passages where the rapture is supposedly mentioned. I listened to J. Vernon McGee's commentary again and again.. It just wasn't there when I was being honest with myself..
How does this apply to "Israel" now?.. Well, if the rapture is only reasoned to by forcing Scripture into bad constraints based on false assumptions easily disproved with Scripture in light of Scripture and Church history, well, then maybe dispensationalist and premillenialist zionism are in the same situation..

A lot rides on your definition of terms. If we can't agree on what our base terms mean, we obviously aren't going to come to any fruitful conclusions.
How should we define "Israel?" And while we're at it, how are we to define the "Jew?"...

The true Israel of God is the church. Simple as. It is those who are seeking after Yaweh, the Most High.


WHIRLWIND HISTORY OF ISRAEL & THE GOSPEL CONDENSED

At the tower of Babel, when Yaweh split the nations and languages, (read Deuteronomy 32 for context. Michael Heiser explains this ad nauseam in "The Unseen Realm") Yaweh took a group of humans for Himself.
This eventually became the old testament nation of Israel that then split into two kingdoms after the third king Solomon died. Read the old testament. At that point, there were mostly bad kings and the people mostly did not hold up their end of the deal with Yaweh.
All of this leads up to the second temple Judaism era wherein Christ is born. Yaweh manifests in one place at one time in the form of a servant. Christ is the icon of Yaweh. Christ shows up many times to careful readers of the old testament. Christ is Yaweh in physical space and time (essence / energy distinction). He shows up to Abraham. He shows up to Jacob, He shows up to Moses. He shows up to Joshua. He shows up born of a virgin, lives a perfect human life and willingly dies a sacrificial death. So that we who believe on Him might experience the mercy, loving kindness and salvation of Yaweh who trampled down death by death. Those who still fear and love Yaweh are the true Israel. Those who reject Yaweh by rejecting his icon Christ are in Christ's own words, "the children of Satan." (Read John 8 starting at verse 39-47 for context). This He says directly to the high ranking religious Jews during his bodily ministry on earth.
So When Jesse Lee Peterson says, "Satan is yo daddy," this is what he is referring to.
The Jew as defined by Saint John in the Gospel according to Saint John is he who intentionally rejects Jesus Christ. Read the book of John for yourself to find out more.


THE MESSAGE IS CLEAR

If you are struggling with this, as I was for many weeks, (I was agonizing over this in fact. Frankly, it was hard for me to give up) I strongly suggest simply reading these three chapters of Holy Scripture in this order:
-- Genesis 12 - the famed "I will bless those who bless you" chapter
--- -Yaweh is referring to Abraham and his seed
-- Romans 11 - the famed "all of Israel will be saved" and beautiful olive tree chapter
---- I hope this isn't a hot take, but "all of Israel" is the Church
-- Galations 3 - the famed "Christ is thee SINGULAR seed of Abraham" chapter
---- Paul clearly explains that Christ is the singular seed of Abraham
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
...
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

When I read these three chapters, the message seems really clear and easy to follow.

Read those three chapters in that order and see what is revealed to you. That's where I started. I had been faithfully reading Scripture for months after truly starting to follow Yaweh only a couple years ago, after a life of "churchian" christianity. After reading those passages and discovering this on my own, I was totally shocked when I got my hands on a Scofield Reference bible and found that the commentary linked these three chapters together as I had linked them. The enemy knows these chapters are linked and in famous Yuri Bezmenov explained style, found it imperative to put a subversive spin on. If you read these chapters for all they are worth within the context of Scripture in its entirety, you will get a very different understanding than that which is promulgated by dispensationalist ideology.


FULLFILLED PROPHECY IN THE TIME OF SOLOMON

I went to a strongly zionist small church of mostly lovely older folks for a few years leading up to my awakening to truly fearing and loving God. They had an Israeli flag on the back wall of the sanctuary. They would often talk about prophecy they thought would be fulfilled in the eschaton that was actually fulfilled in the time of Solomon. I suggest researching the particulars if interested. Check out Zechariah 8:23 for a particularly interesting example of what I'm referring to. This was clearly fulfilled in the time of Solomon, but the zionist will insist otherwise.. perhaps due to some Darby / Scofield influence.


SUGGESTED RESOURCES FOR THE RECOVERING ZIONIST:

-- Hank Hanegraaff (fairly recent convert to Orthodox Christianity) was a huge help to me in understanding this issue, especially his book "The Apocalypse Code"

-- E. Michael Jones (Roman Catholic) was another big influence. I bought his book "Libido Dominandi" and wrote him a note when I purchased it asking him how I could find out the history of the Scofield Reference Bible, because at the time, I was seriously suspicious of it, but I didn't have concrete evidence of its subversive nature. Dr. Jones responded back to me with something like, "Please read "The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit"." Jones explains in that book the obvious subversion around the Scofield Reference Bible. It's shocking.

-- Steven Anderson (protestant): I discovered this film after coming to many of the same conclusions on my own over the course of several long months. I would probably be remiss if I didn't post a link of this video starring a Protestant pastor:

FINAL THOUGHTS

I really appreciate this forum. This is my first attempt at venturing outside of the Orthodox Christianity forum.

Peace
 
I was watching "Its the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown" by the great American philosopher Charles Schultz from 1966. It struck me how the joke referencing "denominational differences" could be made at that time and understood in the Christian context. @RKS is citing a link above to a "Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY" article, that at first glance seems pretty legit, even given the Arianism https://orthodoxwiki.org/Arianism of JW. I appreciate when we can agree inter-denominationally..

I'm not hugely in favor of the "fleshly Israel" vs. "spiritual Israel" distinction. It is one that even the charismatic, zionist Christians I know are able to make. When Saint Paul says in Galations 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.", it seems pretty clear.

I suppose it's how you define "Israel." I believe that the true church of the Most High God is true Israel, but I get that in modern parlance when "Israel" gets brought up, that is not what is being referred to.

I agree with the WOL article above that there is no way the nation of Israel that was established in 1948 is seen favorably by Yaweh, and it can be stunning to encounter such strongly zionist-indoctrinated Christians who can't possibly imagine this. Oh well. Makes you wonder.
 

Rotten

Robin
Favourably. As long as Israel protects the holy sites and allows visitation, it is a step above what came before Israel. But, nothing more or less than that.
 

Timothy Crow

Sparrow
I think he means the exit of the Israelites out of Egypt and their settling in the Holy Land - Israel. God made a covenant with Abraham that if he would lead the Israelites to this land, then he would protect them there:

“You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now therefore, if you obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession out of all the peoples. Indeed, the whole earth is mine, but you shall be for me a priestly kingdom and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the Israelites” (Exodus 19:4-6).

Source: https://claudemariottini.com/2014/10/20/gods-covenant-with-israel/

I think God is protecting the Israelites. They are surrounded on all sides by their enemies. Yet, they persist.

Notice that little word there, IF. I believe that says it.

Hosea 2:21-23 and Hosea 3:5, “And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God. ... Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

They have as yet sought out the Lord, they are a Satanic counterfeit, they are surrounded by enemies of their own making and occupying a land that has not been given to them by the Lord.
 

get2choppaaa

Woodpecker
-- Steven Anderson (protestant): I discovered this film after coming to many of the same conclusions on my own over the course of several long months. I would probably be remiss if I didn't post a link of this video starring a Protestant pastor:

Peace


I would be very wary of Steven Anderson. Whether or not he is correct on this issue, he states a lot of things that are heretical... especially about the Orthodox Church, and from the 1 or 2 videos I have seen from him, he is pretty much a hell fire and brimstone babtist type. I would disregard him and just look for what the Orthodox Church teachings are regarding the physical country of Israel.
 
I think its best not to give Israel much thought.

Politicians and the media do a good job of whipping people up into a frenzy using sob stories about how the poor Palestinians are being brutalized by the evil Israelis or how the poor Israelis are being brutalized by the evil Palestinians.

We all know that people who don't have control over their emotions are easily manipulated, and using these sob stories is a perfect example of how they manipulate you for their gain whether its the Republicans for votes or the media for viewers, or for both the Left and Right to distract you from their political failings.

Yeah, there's bad things going on in Israel on both sides. There's bad things going on in every country in the world every single day. I think that as Christians we're better off putting our energy into improving ourselves and our communities instead of worrying about things that truly have little or no impact on our lives.
 
-- Steven Anderson (protestant): I discovered this film after coming to many of the same conclusions on my own over the course of several long months. I would probably be remiss if I didn't post a link of this video starring a Protestant pastor:

Steven Anderson is spiritual poison. He's famous for saying that homosexuals should kill themselves. When it comes to Christianity he has zero credibility. I remember watching a long video on some Catholic website that refuted a lot of his beliefs point-by-point, but for the life of me I can't remember the name of the website.
 

get2choppaaa

Woodpecker
Steven Anderson is spiritual poison. He's famous for saying that homosexuals should kill themselves. When it comes to Christianity he has zero credibility. I remember watching a long video on some Catholic website that refuted a lot of his beliefs point-by-point, but for the life of me I can't remember the name of the website.
Yep he is. Heretic with false theology.
 
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