How to get a job as a python (or any other language) developer

Atom89

Sparrow
How do web dev companies make a lot of money? There's a dozen web dev companies in my city centre and they literally earn tons of money.

They surely cannot earn more than $£600 a month with 5 clients a month.

I wonder if it's all maintenance work that keeps them afloat? And they also have to pay their employees well.
 

flanders

Robin
KnjazMihailo said:
Valentine said:
KnjazMihailo said:
All I think that needs to be said about programming is in these links:

https://mavericktraveler.com/silicon-valley/
https://mavericktraveler.com/6-reasons-why-young-men-should-not-become-programmers/
https://mavericktraveler.com/why-i-left-my-programming-career-and-havent-looked-back/

Those are my reasons that I never intend to become a programmer. If i really had to do programming I would become a web developer and offer and charge my services to private clients while living abroad and geo-arbitraging my income with western money in a non-western country.

Basically this:

https://www.brettdev.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoZ_b54lGfI

The problem is most of his criticisms apply to every job, the only exception is marketing. Whilst I don't disagree with marketing being of supreme importance (though I may be biased because it was my only focus for years) he completely ignores how powerful programming is combined with marketing. It's not an either-or situation.

I've become very tech-oriented the past few years and because of my marketing background I can see many opportunities for products, but I was never able to execute on them because I lacked programming skills. I've hired programmers to get apps developed but they take ages to develop, it's expensive and without programming skills you can't tell if it's shitcode or not. You need the skills yourself or be lucky enough to land a dedicated technical co-founder in order to prototype rapidly and test the market viability of your ideas.

He also makes entrepreneurship sound way easier than it actually is - it's years of trying and failing throwing stuff at the wall to see what works. Even when you find something that works, your business model might be unsuited for the long-term or for scaling. I see he recommends affiliate marketing and dropshipping, both product types mean you give up control and it's all too common changes happen on the product creator side which end your business.

So take his advice with a pinch of salt and if you are entrepreneurship-inclined then I advise you to think deeply on the type of business you want to create. For me it became obvious that I'm strongly inclined towards software so gaining those skills just made sense, but if you haven't tried out a number of different business models then maybe you would benefit from testing other methods first. But still, don't be put off from combining the two skills by his posts as he's not making a fair comparison.

Sure., there's some merit to your opinion. I still find his criticism reliable since he writes from his personal experience as a programmer.

Not to mention that you didn't even take a look at the 2nd guy who works as a Web Developer, anyway.

Frankly, I'm absolutely more inclined towards entrepreneurship and affiliate marketing.

I just think that these are all worthwhile perspectives to consider before permanently committing oneself to programming. I know i definitely won't commit myself to any form of programming or coding.

So you find some links where some guy has some moderately bad things to say about how programming affected him negatively and with no background in programming yourself assume it's true? There were options for that guy if he didn't want to stay in his particular job. With a software background, you can get into the sales side and deal with humans more than code.

re: your post - Literally everybody on the internet is an affiliate marketer or online marketer. There's 500k+ members of 'affiliate marketers' on some online forums **(where the guys running the forum and collecting monthly dues are making the real money). Not to mention that at any given time, several million bored housewives are googling "how to make money on the internet" and what do you think keeps popping up?

If you want to compete with those guys but think programming is a waste of your time or beneath you then I have bad news.

Some of us actually want to earn a dollar from our sweat equity, and even in fields where your employment situation is 'precarious' (programmers are routinely hired and fired) the sheer demand means you'll never really be out of a job.

I wrote "python" on my linkedin and have been getting hit up by robo-recruiters for no reason and I'm not even very good at programming. I write them back and inside of a week a human being writes me back with specific questions.

Affiliate marketing has even more competition and and an even lower barrier to entry than programming and arguably provides less value. At least programmers are creating some kind of product. You still need sweat equity to break into programming, and the employers who hire programmers are (at the very least) not just handing out jobs to any asshole.
 
There is so much opportunity with a programming background. Dude above posting links trashing the field is naive.

Programming can lead to sales, startups, managment consulting, technical consulting, IT, product management, bleeding edge tech jobs, jobs in healthcare, armed forces, pharma, pretty much any scientific field out there, etc..

Its just a foundation. But that foundation opens up the door to pretty much anything. Its why I’m learning despite making $100k as an EE. The opportunities are endless..
 

Captain Gh

Ostrich
Gold Member
Instead of starting a new thread, I decided to simply add this to this thread. Never ever buy an UdeMy course on a Saturday evening! Never! They Jack the prices up to $200, instead of the regular $24.99(used to be $12.99... so let that sink in to figure out where the economy is going!) Granted very good course on UdeMy should be that price... but with the Uberfication of our economy... it's either you don't make money at all... or you take your cut from the $12.99 that WE decide to sell it for... take it or leave it! Since I'm pretty sure the content creators are not seeing a dime from that $200, I'm passing up! I would honestly buy a course from Colt Steele or Jonas Schmedtmann at that price! Both these mofos are just so Good!
 
Bumping this ghost thread.

Any updates from anyone? I'm still reading through all 25 pages. But would be nice to know if anybody managed to get a decent paying gig due to this thread. I'm thinking of perusing some online courses on top of already self-studying.
 

FullThrottleTX

Woodpecker
tugofpeace said:
There is so much opportunity with a programming background. Dude above posting links trashing the field is naive.

Programming can lead to sales, startups, managment consulting, technical consulting, IT, product management, bleeding edge tech jobs, jobs in healthcare, armed forces, pharma, pretty much any scientific field out there, etc..

Its just a foundation. But that foundation opens up the door to pretty much anything. Its why I’m learning despite making $100k as an EE. The opportunities are endless..

I'm a self-taught software engineer and this is my 2nd career, I started as a marketer. I've also been heavily involved in hiring other software engineers in companies of various sizes.

First, let me say I don't know why anyone would go from programming/engineering into marketing/sales/product management, unless they couldn't hack it. There are just so many more jobs in engineering than in marketing/sales - and they usually pay better. It's not "just a foundation" to be a programmer... that's ridiculous. It's a craft. It's like saying "I'm an electrician, it's just a foundation to open my own electrical business...". Actually, probably worse because opening an electrical business is far more likely for an electrician than a software engineer starting a dev shop.

Learning programming is not a means to another end....
It takes too much time and investment to jump off into something like sales (frankly as a software engineer, I make way more than product managers/sales people).

Also, consider the personality characteristics to be a good programmer. sales is very extroverted/people oriented. Most good coders I know absolutely hate anything in that area. You have occasional unicorns (I'm one of them), but for the most part, 90 percent of coders are introverted/non-business oriented types, genuinely passionate about the material, can learn things on their own, and are motivated to keep their skills up to date. I can't say you'll be successful if coding is just a means to another end (like getting some kind of tech consulting/product manager job -- we generally don't respect those folks frankly).

Before you consider starting a business as a programmer, consider some of these facts:

1) Software engineering talent is extremely difficult and expensive to hire, manage, retain. This means unless you're a one man show - which in itself is difficult, you're in for a huge challenge when you try to scale out your tech product. I won't even apply for engineering manager positions. The world is different in tech where employees have a ton of leverage and need to be persuaded to work (can get a new job at a drop of a hat).

2) Freelance software development is very overrated (I've done it). You don't own the product. There is constant pressure/deadlines. You won't be working with peers that understand software engineering, so you'll be rushed to take bad shortcuts. If you're effective as a freelancer, you will outsource most of the work and spend more time cultivating business. Hence, you won't be a programmer anymore (which sucks, frankly). The person really successful at freelance programming is likely more on the design/frontend of things than backend.

3) The best projects are with big companies with resources to hire an agency. Smaller companies won't pay much, will be looking to outsource to the lowest bidder (Indians!).

4) Plenty of startups and larger companies are looking for software engineering talent, there's nothing wrong with working in-house and finding good stable work in a company. Not being a H1B visa holder makes you very desirable and more affordable to hire.

My take on being self-taught:
1) All good software engineers have a heavy amount of self-teaching. Some of the shittiest coders I've met have computer science degrees. Seems counter intuitive, but it's true. However, that road to the first job is going to be really tough if all you have is Udemy courses. You will lose out on the mentoring/group projects you'd get in a college course or bootcamp.
2) Coding bootcamps are a great option to give you a solid path and some contacts for your first job. I did one, it changed my life. For example, did you know that half to 2/3rds of entry level programming jobs are on the frontend (Angular/React - mostly). Rarely are they going to hire a Backend Python dev whose done a few udemy courses... I wouldn't let you touch my databases or infrastructure.
3) Try to live in a city with a lot of tech jobs for your first couple of years. Atlanta, Dallas, and Austin come to mind due to lower cost of living. You will have fewer issues with that first job than in other places. Remote jobs are also possible, but it's not so likely your first job will be a remote one. You need mentoring/guidance before you go out on your own.
4) Data science is different from software engineering. Both use programming, but one is building the product while the other is building algorithms/intellectual property... Data scientists almost always know Python, and almost always have graduate degrees. So that option is out for self-teaching. I tried to repurpose data scientists to be software engineers and it didn't work. They knew programming, but they were too abstract in thinking to do practical work like build responsive frontends. I always hire gun-ho folks who aren't "too smart" to do what I need them to do, which often times isn't anything high minded like algorithms and IP, but boring stuff like: "hey, can you build some endpoints to deliver user data to our client portal."
5) Not everyone can do backend web development and not everyone can do frontend web development. Different personalities. Even fewer can do both, but being full stack is extremely important in 2019 if you want the maximum number of job opportunities.

That's it. I just want to dispel a lot of bullshit on this thread...
If you're hustling to start a business, software is probably not your field. You have to be truly passionate about it to be successful.
 

Jaydublin

Pelican
^^^ Hell of a post +1

You said it would be a benefit to be a developer and not have an H1B? Why is that? Why would it be cheaper?

I think I would like this field. I currently read digital radiographs of castings, basically in a cubicle but they won't allow us do to this remotely. I've been looking for something I can learn to do remotely.

What I struggle to find out is what a normal day is like programming. I've played around with a udemy course and made some simple things it instructed me to do but I doubt that's what work is like in the real world.
 

FullThrottleTX

Woodpecker
Jaydublin said:
^^^ Hell of a post +1

You said it would be a benefit to be a developer and not have an H1B? Why is that? Why would it be cheaper?

I think I would like this field. I currently read digital radiographs of castings, basically in a cubicle but they won't allow us do to this remotely. I've been looking for something I can learn to do remotely.

What I struggle to find out is what a normal day is like programming. I've played around with a udemy course and made some simple things it instructed me to do but I doubt that's what work is like in the real world.

Thanks,

Because you have to pay to sponsor someone. You also have to do a lot of paperwork. In the end, you only bring in an H1B because you can't find someone locally to do the work. Rarely is it the best option...

Day to day, programming is mostly time spent on your own solving problems. If that is something you like, you will excel. If you like a lot of people contact, probably not.
Beyond that, it depends on the shop on how day-to-day things go. Agile is the most common methodology used - which means there is a lot of rituals you'll need to get used to, like the daily standup, sprint planning, grooming, and managing your interactions with product managers. None of those things you will learn through Udemy.

Remote work is something you can find in software development but I'd try to work in-house your first 2 years and get socialized into it before you go at it remotely. You need the mentorship and in-person interaction. Which is why I suggested a coding bootcamp, which will socialize you as a dev (was a good career transition for me). Makes things more tangible... Keep doing the udemy, but a bootcamp will give you some time to build projects and get feedback.

Edit: also, working with other coders is hard. Group projects help you figure out Git/Version Control and how to divide up the work.
 
FullThrottle, Thanks for the informative posts.

One question I had is what kind of budget laptop would you recommend for a beginner? Up to $500 if possible.
 

FullThrottleTX

Woodpecker
TigerMandingo said:
FullThrottle, Thanks for the informative posts.

One question I had is what kind of budget laptop would you recommend for a beginner? Up to $500 if possible.

No problem. Doesn't really matter that much what laptop you get, but I'd avoid budget laptops because they aren't a good value. A MacBook Pro is more typical if you're doing opensource stuff as you have the Bash command line which resembles Linux. Depending on the stack you're working with, of course, but most devs I know prefer Macs.
 
FullThrottleTX said:
My take on being self-taught:
1) All good software engineers have a heavy amount of self-teaching. Some of the shittiest coders I've met have computer science degrees. Seems counter intuitive, but it's true. However, that road to the first job is going to be really tough if all you have is Udemy courses. You will lose out on the mentoring/group projects you'd get in a college course or bootcamp.
2) Coding bootcamps are a great option to give you a solid path and some contacts for your first job. I did one, it changed my life. For example, did you know that half to 2/3rds of entry level programming jobs are on the frontend (Angular/React - mostly). Rarely are they going to hire a Backend Python dev whose done a few udemy courses... I wouldn't let you touch my databases or infrastructure.
3) Try to live in a city with a lot of tech jobs for your first couple of years. Atlanta, Dallas, and Austin come to mind due to lower cost of living. You will have fewer issues with that first job than in other places. Remote jobs are also possible, but it's not so likely your first job will be a remote one. You need mentoring/guidance before you go out on your own.

That's it. I just want to dispel a lot of bullshit on this thread...
If you're hustling to start a business, software is probably not your field. You have to be truly passionate about it to be successful.

Hey, thanks a lot for adding your two cents to this thread. This is great info.

On the subject of bootcamps, I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on one. Do you recommend any in particular? Already live near SF and the Valley, so I have that going for me. I know of a few people who took them and now work for some of the big tech companies, but the ones they enrolled in were quite expensive (You can PM me if you don't want to publicly disclose yours).

Also, if you don't recommend Python, what do you recommend learning when first starting out in order to start getting job offers ASAP? Should one start with JS first? Thanks.
 
Bootcamps in NYC are tuition-free until you find a job, at which point you start paying the fees. Anyone familiar with app academy? I think I'm gonna pull the trigger too.
 

FullThrottleTX

Woodpecker
sittinpretty2020 said:
Also, if you don't recommend Python, what do you recommend learning when first starting out in order to start getting job offers ASAP? Should one start with JS first? Thanks.

Thank you,

I didn't really make a recommendation, just stated a fact that there's more work on the frontend than the backend... so HTML/CS/JavaScript and it's more likely as a non-CS grad that will be your first job. Python is fine to learn as well, it's super easy. I just think without understanding software architecture, you're going to be lost on the backend. Regionally, there's also differences in whose using what, in the Bay area you definitely will see a lot of JavaScript.

I would attend some info sessions with local bootcamps and ask a lot of questions about their corporate connections and job placement rates vs. relying on someone else recommendation from outside the area. In the Valley you've gotta have some great programs just look at whose sponsoring them.
 

FullThrottleTX

Woodpecker
TigerMandingo said:
Bootcamps in NYC are tuition-free until you find a job, at which point you start paying the fees. Anyone familiar with app academy? I think I'm gonna pull the trigger too.

Tuition-free is good, but something to keep in mind - as I personally left NYC to start my software engineering career in Dallas...

The dev jobs in NYC pay shit. You can find entry level developer positions for $50k in NYC. That's less than janitors make... Even mid-level, I'm not impressed by the salaries. In Dallas, $60-70k starting is common - with $100k possible within 2 or 3 years, and that goes a lot further than what you'd be making in NYC ontop of making more. Bay area pays better than NYC as well, still not good enough for cost of living.

Given my lifestyle in Dallas, I would never move back to NYC for a dev job... I'd probably make about the same as I do here give or take 5 or 10 grand, and I'd need to be making at least $50 grand more to make up for cost of living... Not worth it.
 
This may be a dumb question, but how long would it take doing 4 hours a day of learning to get from 0 to employable?

I am really interested in python, but am kind of wondering up front what sort of time investment I'm going to be looking at until I get proficient.
 

uhriginal

Sparrow
I tried delving in to python, im like fuck that. Back to java.

I believe python ppl are more employable but its just AI and database monkey shit. Not about that life
 
mkultra22 said:
This may be a dumb question, but how long would it take doing 4 hours a day of learning to get from 0 to employable?

I am really interested in python, but am kind of wondering up front what sort of time investment I'm going to be looking at until I get proficient.

Interesting question. I'm also curious.

I would rather learn something difficult and learn it well than settle for something easy, however.
 

Marmite

Kingfisher
Gold Member
It looks like python is going to be a big part of the new Cisco qualifications starting February next year.

https://blogs.cisco.com/developer/why-is-cisco-teaching-me-python?

Why is Cisco Teaching Me Python?
Hank Preston

At a recent network programmability workshop one of the attendees asked, “Why is Cisco teaching me Python?”

I was leading a workshop for a group of senior network engineers at a large financial company that was organized and sponsored by a member of their cloud leadership team. This made the workshop and audience a bit different than most of the DevNet Express, Cisco Live, and DevNet Zone events I had been supporting for the last year.

It was different because at the Cisco events the audience “self-selected” to attend the workshop or presentation. The audience in those events was already convinced of the importance of learning topics related to programmable networks – like Python, JSON, REST APIs, etc. However, in the case of the financial company sponsored event, the audience was in attendance because their management TOLD them to attend. Or at least that was the case for several of the audience members. To be fair, at least half this audience was excited to be there and had already been experimenting with many of the topics. Nonetheless, it struck me that this was an entirely fair question

As you might expect, a question like that generated quite a bit of discussion on the topic. We may have fallen a bit off schedule, however I think the time was well spent.

Well… Why Is Cisco Teaching You Python You Ask?
So what is the answer you wonder… well simply put (and this is exactly how I answered it in the workshop), Cisco is teaching you Python for the same reason Cisco taught you subnetting, the OSI model, and fundamentals of spanning-tree and routing. Because understanding Python is critical to your success as a network engineer, and Cisco wants to help network engineers be successful.

Now, not everyone in the audience bought the answer immediately. “Why is it critical?” was asked several times. “I didn’t become an network engineer to become a programmer” may have been said a few times as well.

The argument was made that even though network automation was clearly the direction of the industry (no real disagreement on that front) there were many many tools available for them to use to automate the network without writing any code. And if the time came when they DID need to code something directly, their organization had software developers that could do that work for them. Those points are definitely true, and for some engineers that maybe an approach that works for them and their company.

However, I feel I’m a much better engineer because I learned the details behind subnetting rather than rely on “The Subnet Calculator” online to explain the difference between Layer 2 and 3 communications. I understood WHY I configured portfast and BPDU guard. In the same way, I believe the best network engineers in the future will be able to:

build their own Python scripts (or curate and modify scripts they find)
query the APIs for their network devices, controllers, and management systems
contribute to key Open Source projects that are becoming the foundation of network automation
For those reasons I’ll continue to lead programmability workshops with customers, make network programming basics videos, as well as build and deliver all the amazing NetDevOps content on DevNet, at Cisco Live, and at other events around the world.

What do you think?
Are you on “Team Python” as you look to build your own career? Or do you think all this focus on programmability skills is a flash in the pan? Tell me in the comments or on Twitter/LinkedIn. Let’s keep the discussion going.
 

Atomic

Robin
I never understood the logic behind Network Engineers practically refusing to do any coding....they work in an entirely computer based industry, why not learn how to code?

Programming isn't even very difficult to learn the basics. I think a lot of people confuse computer science with programming. Yes you learn to program in computer science, but you don't need a computer science background to learn to program.

A basic script will most likely not use any intermediate or advanced CS concepts. And if it does, it doesn't matter if the algorithm is shit (N^2 or worse) because it's probably not being applied it at scale.

Cue the Pareto Principle: You can do 80% of the jobs out there with basic data structures, control flow, and conditional logic. All which is taught in Freshman/Sophomore level programming classes. Not to mention there are packages and plugins for everything these days, you basically just need to know how to read documentation, tweak some configuration settings, read error messages, and search stack overflow.

You ugly if/else chain may cause some advanced programmers to smirk. But if it works and does what you need it to who cares what the bit chasing prudes think?

To flip the question, should a computer programmer learn networking? Of course they should learn the basics. How else are they going to be able to setup servers and deploy applications?
 

invester

Chicken
mkultra22 said:
This may be a dumb question, but how long would it take doing 4 hours a day of learning to get from 0 to employable?

I am really interested in python, but am kind of wondering up front what sort of time investment I'm going to be looking at until I get proficient.

I started 2 years ago with javascript for web development. TeamTreeHouse is great.
Transitioned to python several months ago because a new contract called for it.

It's easy to pick up, just get some projects under your belt.

I say, if you have a logical mindset and can google things, 6 months would be good.
Just make sure it's not all video tutorials for 4 hours a day.

Start out slow, and then get some freelance gigs on upwork. Bid low, it doesn't matter. You're doing it to learn. Although make sure you have some idea of how to do the project you're applying for. Don't need to know it right away.
 
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