How to make a bow - DATASHEET

sterling_archer

Hummingbird
flanders said:
I got into the hobby back when there were a few somewhat ugly geocities-looking blogs about it. "Primitiveways" was my go-to for a long time.

I do like plastic nocks for target arrows, though wooden nocks with a bit of fake sinew/glue wrap on the end has an aesthetic look that's hard to turn down, even though they're labor intensive. I have had very good luck with buying cedar shafts online (root river archery, I think?). When I couldn't find field points I would use a 5/16" nut attached to the end of the arrow for shooting stumps. Your mileage may vary with that one but if you're sourcing dowels for fairly cheap it's something to think about. Are you getting cedar shafts?
Haven't heard about that primitiveways, but I get it. Sometime ago basically only real deal were bowyers that would teach you in person, with occasional good books being published but being pricey.

It is kind of a shame though with the market ... fiberglass bows ruined a lot of the culture and archery as a pastime.

Everything came to be about fps, spining arrows to be perfect, seeking perfect arrowheads. That is not really so bad, but who can claim to be primitive or traditional when every piece of equipment or your skill is about mathematical calculations. I admit I use mass calculator but that is more of an guide to see what to expect at the end.

Bowhunters are a small but lively crowd in my area so I usually would talk to them at the range and offer a medium/lowball price for a bow I already made (and was willing to get rid of). When your buyer is a guy who is fine with spending $1k on a pimped out compound bow setup, somebody selling a bow for sixty to a hundred bucks is bound to get them interested, especially if you brought it to the range and are reliably placing arrows with it in front of them. If you have a lot of bows sitting around you don't want it's something to think about. I was lucky to get lumber for free and I usually billed 15$/hr for labor for good "made to order" bows.

That is a good advice but unfortunately bow hunting is prohibited in Croatia. Only place where it is legal are some particular places which I know nothing about. Not sure who hunts there as our hunters are not exactly guys I could picture stalking the white tails in the woods. More of a pot bellied, sitting in a tower (or what is that called) type of guys if you know what I mean.
Currently 2 bows I am working on will be for sale. I will put them on local advertisement page that is similar to craigslist.

My spine tester was pretty ghetto but it worked great. I had a two pound lead weight (everything spray enameled to avoid rubbing lead particles on everything), with a protractor mounted in the center and a few pennies as a counterweight.

Mine is very simple too, two points on which arrow rests and place to clamp calipers which will measure how much arrow deflexed.

I can't really see any of your pictures but you probably have a way better setup. If I could have ever gotten my hands on a garage with good wiring, an electric planer, and a few other nice things, that could have been a badass workshop. I would like to have a blacksmith's forge some day though. I might post a few pictures in the thread since this seems like it might be the general archery thread.

What do you mean, you cannot see my pictures? I think the posting service is still showing them correctly.
Btw, I don't like using power tools for bow building except maybe angle grinder to help me clean the transitions from handle to limb.

@bold, very true. Paleo planet and primitive archer are great forums, even if you just lurk through the threads. A few really legendary posters on there.

Really, it's never been a better time to be into this hobby, especially with how incredible youtube is. Back in the day all I had was "the leatherwall" that was absolute trash, and another called "buildabow" I think, that one was just awful, full of twelve year olds .. a whole subforum that was just affiliate links. If you wanted results you had to actually buy books over mail, read them, and carefully puzzle out what they were talking about with their badly drawn diagrams, and even then that was a crapshoot since couldn't easily access dozens/hundreds of online reviews like on amazon.

It is amazing how quickly I could get help there. Countless times I got guidance about tiller profile or how to do particular stuff. More on primitive archer though as I find that paleo planet archery section is a bit dead in recent times.

Board bows are good to get some practice in, though I do like sapling bows quite a lot, got a few nice whitewood cherokee style bendy-handle longbows. That is probably my favorite style of bow overall, it's not very labor intensive and they always come out looking great. I'll be interested in seeing pictures of the black locust bow you have in the works. Good luck keeping the belly from crystalling, I hear BL can be challenging to work with. Are you familiar with heat treating?

I practically make most of my bows from saplings. I recently started to experiment with black locust since that wood is pretty good choice for flatbows. Apparently it is very similar to osage in regards ring chasing and whole composition. Heartwood is similar in color too. I don't know when I will start that Cherokee bow, but I will send you a PM with pictures if you want when I get into it.

Indeed, I also heard BL will punish you with wrong tiller by showing you chrysals on the belly. To counter that they say best design for it is pyramid bow. I am not doing that at the moment but I am making a regular flatbow design. Still I will pay great attention to potential chrysals.
I am familiar with heat treating and recently I am experimenting with recurving the tips.
 

flanders

Robin
sterling_archer said:
flanders said:
I got into the hobby back when there were a few somewhat ugly geocities-looking blogs about it. "Primitiveways" was my go-to for a long time.

I do like plastic nocks for target arrows, though wooden nocks with a bit of fake sinew/glue wrap on the end has an aesthetic look that's hard to turn down, even though they're labor intensive. I have had very good luck with buying cedar shafts online (root river archery, I think?). When I couldn't find field points I would use a 5/16" nut attached to the end of the arrow for shooting stumps. Your mileage may vary with that one but if you're sourcing dowels for fairly cheap it's something to think about. Are you getting cedar shafts?
Haven't heard about that primitiveways, but I get it. Sometime ago basically only real deal were bowyers that would teach you in person, with occasional good books being published but being pricey.

It is kind of a shame though with the market ... fiberglass bows ruined a lot of the culture and archery as a pastime.

Everything came to be about fps, spining arrows to be perfect, seeking perfect arrowheads. That is not really so bad, but who can claim to be primitive or traditional when every piece of equipment or your skill is about mathematical calculations. I admit I use mass calculator but that is more of an guide to see what to expect at the end.

"Seminars" were a huge deal a while back, nowadays they're called "meetups" or even "trade meetups". Some of the big players still show up.
Weirdly the primitive archery sphere and the pickup artist sphere evolved in about the same time frame in similar ways. I could never make it to any of the meetups (these guys all live in Portland or California, it seems).

Could monetize primitive archery by posting leaflets or news articles saying that a local bowyer is hosting a bow-building seminar and you only have to pay ~100$ for materials and instruction. After startup costs and marketing you still probably pocket at least a third of the proceeds. If it's spun towards 'father-son day' or children it could potentially be really lucrative, since white collar parents will spend any amount of money on their kids to get them away from the xbox for a day. I never had the initiative to do that but it is something to think about if you're trying to grow a community from scratch, essentially.

I thought the engineering/math applications towards primitive archery was a strong plus since it laid waste a lot of bad ideas about the sport, like recurves being naturally superior. It also set up some new and exciting heuristics like poundage/fps rule, basically if your 50# bow can throw a 500 grain hunting arrow at 150 fps it's at a good level of efficiency, with great being 170+ fps and legendary/mythical being 200+ fps. The chronograph is the true test of archery in many respects and it's done a lot of good things.

I'm having issues figuring out the maze of quotes so I'll just reply in blue or something.

Bowhunters are a small but lively crowd in my area so I usually would talk to them at the range and offer a medium/lowball price for a bow I already made (and was willing to get rid of). When your buyer is a guy who is fine with spending $1k on a pimped out compound bow setup, somebody selling a bow for sixty to a hundred bucks is bound to get them interested, especially if you brought it to the range and are reliably placing arrows with it in front of them. If you have a lot of bows sitting around you don't want it's something to think about. I was lucky to get lumber for free and I usually billed 15$/hr for labor for good "made to order" bows.

That is a good advice but unfortunately bow hunting is prohibited in Croatia. Only place where it is legal are some particular places which I know nothing about. Not sure who hunts there as our hunters are not exactly guys I could picture stalking the white tails in the woods. More of a pot bellied, sitting in a tower (or what is that called) type of guys if you know what I mean.
Currently 2 bows I am working on will be for sale. I will put them on local advertisement page that is similar to craigslist.

That sucks man, had no idea bowhunting is illegal over there. I imagine it would be difficult to set up a mail order or internet based archery website with shipping and handling limitations. Take-down style longbows required tools I didn't have lol.

My spine tester was pretty ghetto but it worked great. I had a two pound lead weight (everything spray enameled to avoid rubbing lead particles on everything), with a protractor mounted in the center and a few pennies as a counterweight.

Mine is very simple too, two points on which arrow rests and place to clamp calipers which will measure how much arrow deflexed.

I can't really see any of your pictures but you probably have a way better setup. If I could have ever gotten my hands on a garage with good wiring, an electric planer, and a few other nice things, that could have been a badass workshop. I would like to have a blacksmith's forge some day though. I might post a few pictures in the thread since this seems like it might be the general archery thread.

What do you mean, you cannot see my pictures? I think the posting service is still showing them correctly.
Btw, I don't like using power tools for bow building except maybe angle grinder to help me clean the transitions from handle to limb.

Maybe my browser doesn't work, I'm not sure.
I'd get a planer mostly to make laminates. Inducing reflex through wood lamination is an addiction that's hard to quit once you've tried it. Not to mention I can steam bend reflex/deflex bows all day or put on rawhide or linen backings but nothing really beats hickory backed osage for durability. I have a handful of osage boards that are gradually turning purple that need backings but haven't put any time towards it in awhile.


@bold, very true. Paleo planet and primitive archer are great forums, even if you just lurk through the threads. A few really legendary posters on there.

Really, it's never been a better time to be into this hobby, especially with how incredible youtube is. Back in the day all I had was "the leatherwall" that was absolute trash, and another called "buildabow" I think, that one was just awful, full of twelve year olds .. a whole subforum that was just affiliate links. If you wanted results you had to actually buy books over mail, read them, and carefully puzzle out what they were talking about with their badly drawn diagrams, and even then that was a crapshoot since couldn't easily access dozens/hundreds of online reviews like on amazon.

It is amazing how quickly I could get help there. Countless times I got guidance about tiller profile or how to do particular stuff. More on primitive archer though as I find that paleo planet archery section is a bit dead in recent times.

It seems not many people post much of anything there anymore. Some old threads are worth printing out though.

Board bows are good to get some practice in, though I do like sapling bows quite a lot, got a few nice whitewood cherokee style bendy-handle longbows. That is probably my favorite style of bow overall, it's not very labor intensive and they always come out looking great. I'll be interested in seeing pictures of the black locust bow you have in the works. Good luck keeping the belly from crystalling, I hear BL can be challenging to work with. Are you familiar with heat treating?

I practically make most of my bows from saplings. I recently started to experiment with black locust since that wood is pretty good choice for flatbows. Apparently it is very similar to osage in regards ring chasing and whole composition. Heartwood is similar in color too. I don't know when I will start that Cherokee bow, but I will send you a PM with pictures if you want when I get into it.

Indeed, I also heard BL will punish you with wrong tiller by showing you chrysals on the belly. To counter that they say best design for it is pyramid bow. I am not doing that at the moment but I am making a regular flatbow design. Still I will pay great attention to potential chrysals.
I am familiar with heat treating and recently I am experimenting with recurving the tips.

I never much cared for pyramid bows, that much physical mass right in the sight plane made shooting them kind of gay, but a lot of people seem to like them. Heat treat and blast the shit out of the belly and you can get away with murder. :banana:

That's interesting though that black locust grows in Croatia since I thought BL was a Missouri kind of thing. I imagine you guys have .. ash and beech forests probably? Our type of black walnut is also much different, since European black walnut needs to age for a very long time to have a vintage look while American black walnut has the aged look the day after sawing it.
 

sterling_archer

Hummingbird
"Seminars" were a huge deal a while back, nowadays they're called "meetups" or even "trade meetups". Some of the big players still show up.
Weirdly the primitive archery sphere and the pickup artist sphere evolved in about the same time frame in similar ways. I could never make it to any of the meetups (these guys all live in Portland or California, it seems).

That is funny when I think about it, and true. It seems that during the 90s we get a kind of surge of interest regarding both archery and Game. Really the all important books came out in these years.

Could monetize primitive archery by posting leaflets or news articles saying that a local bowyer is hosting a bow-building seminar and you only have to pay ~100$ for materials and instruction. After startup costs and marketing you still probably pocket at least a third of the proceeds. If it's spun towards 'father-son day' or children it could potentially be really lucrative, since white collar parents will spend any amount of money on their kids to get them away from the xbox for a day. I never had the initiative to do that but it is something to think about if you're trying to grow a community from scratch, essentially.

That is a good idea, maybe for some time later when I got the means to do that, i.e. build connections, collect a shitload of staves/saplings, got more and better tools, etc.

I thought the engineering/math applications towards primitive archery was a strong plus since it laid waste a lot of bad ideas about the sport, like recurves being naturally superior. It also set up some new and exciting heuristics like poundage/fps rule, basically if your 50# bow can throw a 500 grain hunting arrow at 150 fps it's at a good level of efficiency, with great being 170+ fps and legendary/mythical being 200+ fps. The chronograph is the true test of archery in many respects and it's done a lot of good things.

I agree with you, but since I don't have chrono or haven't made arrows myself, I never really bothered with that. Also, since bow hunting is prohibited, I don't have interest in making my arrows really perfect. Of course I will try to get them fly as best as I can, but I will not cry if my bow seems slower than these calculated designs.

That sucks man, had no idea bowhunting is illegal over there. I imagine it would be difficult to set up a mail order or internet based archery website with shipping and handling limitations. Take-down style longbows required tools I didn't have lol.

Actually I don't know yet of limitations. First I will try to open an instagram account which will show my work over time and try to get followers there, with maybe trying to get as much followers from Balkans. I will probably make website later, dedicated solely to bow business, but that will come after I get some things in order.

Maybe my browser doesn't work, I'm not sure.
I'd get a planer mostly to make laminates. Inducing reflex through wood lamination is an addiction that's hard to quit once you've tried it. Not to mention I can steam bend reflex/deflex bows all day or put on rawhide or linen backings but nothing really beats hickory backed osage for durability. I have a handful of osage boards that are gradually turning purple that need backings but haven't put any time towards it in awhile.

Shit you are right, there are no pictures anymore. I posted them on "postimage", website that held all my pictures for years on other forums. Very weird. Unfortunately there is no way to get them back online now, sad.

Why do you back osage, I see that it functions pretty well on itself? Never tried rawhide or linen backings since I don't know where to get them here. There are some minor things that are usual on archery forums that I don't have access to. For example, there is nowhere to buy scrapers, aside from ordering from abroad. Also, sinew and snake skins. Butchers don't really have sinew.

It seems not many people post much of anything there anymore. Some old threads are worth printing out though.

Yes, especially those that still show pictures.

I never much cared for pyramid bows, that much physical mass right in the sight plane made shooting them kind of gay, but a lot of people seem to like them. Heat treat and blast the shit out of the belly and you can get away with murder. :banana:

They shouldn't be of high mass, don't get what you are saying? Are you saying that you don't like their width at the fades and that it distracts you when you shoot?

That's interesting though that black locust grows in Croatia since I thought BL was a Missouri kind of thing. I imagine you guys have .. ash and beech forests probably? Our type of black walnut is also much different, since European black walnut needs to age for a very long time to have a vintage look while American black walnut has the aged look the day after sawing it.

Black locust is probably one of the most common types of trees. It is an invasive species and people planted it all over the world, so it doesn't really seem weird fact that it is the 2nd most common tree I see in woods.
It has very good bow building potential. You can find them very big and straight so when you cut them, you could get a lot of staves. Recently I cut the one whose whole trunk and root was pulled from ground because of snow 4 years ago and since then it has been laying somewhat couple of feet above the ground. From the length of 15 feet I got about 16 staves.
Since it has been already almost dry, it split very easy. You could just hit the wedge couple of times and crack goes through whole length in a second.

Yes, also beech and ash are very common types of woods. Most common type of forest is beech forest with black locusts and some occasional birch and oak.
Btw, Juglans nigra is native to USA, and we find it rare in Europe, doesn't matter it was introduced here in 17th century. I can't really call it thus European since it is not widespread.
There is a European walnut but that wood is distinctly not suitable for bows. Too soft.
That being said, I found a single black walnut among some shrubs near industrial zone. Now, I was being perplexed as how did it get here, but I think it was put there as a decoration, some 30 years ago or so. I didn't want to cut it because it is a single one of its species around my area.
 

flanders

Robin
Why do you back osage, I see that it functions pretty well on itself? Never tried rawhide or linen backings since I don't know where to get them here. There are some minor things that are usual on archery forums that I don't have access to. For example, there is nowhere to buy scrapers, aside from ordering from abroad. Also, sinew and snake skins. Butchers don't really have sinew.

I live a few hundred miles outside of osage's natural range, so all the osage I have access to is cut down into boards by specialty sawmills for people buying (their words) "curious lumber". Therefore all the growth rings are violated all to shit and sometimes there's three or four run-outs per limb, and knots/pins everywhere. Low quality board lumber always needs a backing, wood laminate preferably.

You could always go to a junk shop and buy some old carbon steel butcher knives and sharpen them into scrapers. The best scraper I own is a trash old hickory kitchen knife. A piece of glass from a broken beer bottle works great too.

Old silk ties also work for backings, you just take them apart and glue them to the back. Denim or burlap isn't bad either (a guy on youtube did this). Getting titebond III might be a little harder, but you could always buy gelatin packets and cook it into hide glue.

I agree getting sinew is a pain in the ass. Even if you have immediate access to animal carcasses, processing it is difficult. The only stuff I could get in any quantity was achilles tendons from goat/deer legs, which takes probably twice as much work as backstrap to tear apart into fibers.

A lot of butchers don't like taking direction from laypersons. Though if you want butchers to get you sinew, just ask them to saw off the legs below the "knee" joint for you, 'knees' on most four legged critters are actually ankles and below that is right where the achilles tendon is.
Then you just need to spend maybe half an hour cutting apart the first leg to figure out where the fleshy tendons are at until you get a process down. I've traded a few cases of beer for several five gallon buckets of steer feet and everybody walked away happy.

I tried a sinew backed plum bow on a recommendation from paleoplanet many years back and ended up throwing it away ... what a shame ... those short sinew fibers are harder to reclaim from a back than longer backstrap sinew. It was dumb not to have tried though. Probably put 50-60 hours worth of effort into just that one.

That's kind of why I burned out on archery though, it can be time intensive (rewarding too though) and I have the personality type to always be picking up projects, half finishing them, always being kind of dissatisfied with my old work. I tried getting some blue collar friends involved in it but they seemed pretty bad at it (weren't really committed enough either, not even two or three hours per week).

When I can dig some stuff out of storage I'll post some pictures.

They shouldn't be of high mass, don't get what you are saying? Are you saying that you don't like their width at the fades and that it distracts you when you shoot?

Yeah, the second one - fade width. I tried making one with roughly an 8" handle that would avoid all that noise but it just wouldn't come out right.

Black locust is probably one of the most common types of trees. It is an invasive species and people planted it all over the world, so it doesn't really seem weird fact that it is the 2nd most common tree I see in woods.
It has very good bow building potential. You can find them very big and straight so when you cut them, you could get a lot of staves. Recently I cut the one whose whole trunk and root was pulled from ground because of snow 4 years ago and since then it has been laying somewhat couple of feet above the ground. From the length of 15 feet I got about 16 staves.
Since it has been already almost dry, it split very easy. You could just hit the wedge couple of times and crack goes through whole length in a second.

Yes, also beech and ash are very common types of woods. Most common type of forest is beech forest with black locusts and some occasional birch and oak.
Btw, Juglans nigra is native to USA, and we find it rare in Europe, doesn't matter it was introduced here in 17th century. I can't really call it thus European since it is not widespread.
There is a European walnut but that wood is distinctly not suitable for bows. Too soft.
That being said, I found a single black walnut among some shrubs near industrial zone. Now, I was being perplexed as how did it get here, but I think it was put there as a decoration, some 30 years ago or so. I didn't want to cut it because it is a single one of its species around my area.

I've heard nothing but good things about locust, and it looks awesome when finished. I've even seen some locust sapling bows with sapwood backs that performed well and generally had strong aesthetics. I wish it grew here.
I mostly used walnut for laminate bow handles, bow tips, knife handles, or the like. It's too pretty to be used for bows haha.
Where I'm at it's a lot of bur oak, .. varieties of ashes, hornbeams/ironwood, hackberry. Not many monstrously large elms anymore. Too much goddamned box elder.
Man all this lumber talk has me wanting to go to the woods and cut some shit down. The earlywood/latewood thing never concerned me, I just made sure to never cut anything down in the winter since debarking is unnecessary labor.
 

sterling_archer

Hummingbird
Ah, that were osage boards. They are probably amazing to make tables from, or some chairs. It makes sense that you backed them, who knows would you ever find one with nice grain (like oak boards) so you could use it without backing. Better be safe than sorry.

Primarily I use now my draw knife as a scraper. If I get it to less than 90° perpendicular to bow belly, it will not leave scrape marks and will get good shavings. When there is aggressive tillering required, I even use coarse rasp.

Plum, especially its wild variant blackthorn doesn't need backing. I mean you can put backing on everything but some woods will function without it. You could have just attempted bendy longbow. That being said, these two are painfully difficult to season/dry and will leave many cracks.
I am too at the moment a bit burned out. 3 bows in a row didn't come at all like I wanted or I threw them away during tillering because of excessive character making tillering difficult. You know, I get to the woods and see a cool piece of wood, spend hours on it shaping it and then I find I cannot get the bend because of all dips and bumps in the limbs. Then I say fuck it and throw it away for firewood. I should stop that. Just now I am also looking at a victim of being for fire. A hornbeam (not hophornbeam!) pyramid bow (haha) that has retarded curves everywhere and when I put it to tiller yesterday, I worked an hour on inner limbs to get them to even bend. During that time of course hinges developed near tips.

I never leave sapwood on BL because it is always in bad condition, especially if the wood is dead standing (you can use dead standing BL with no problems). I got recently a good experience on ring chasing because of that.
Box elder was also introduced in Europe and now it is a completely invasive species. Me and my dad are frequently cutting it for firewood. It is soft and has not good properties for fire, but you can find it a lot. Too bad it is not a bow wood, sometimes I see them straight as a poles.
 
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