How to respond to a pro-abortion point.

Luna Novem

Kingfisher
Woman
Catholic
The specific point I'm referring to is the "relative safety" point... that making abortion illegal will simply lead to back-alley abortions, and therefore won't save lives, but will rather kill women (or potentially kill them) along with the baby. What's a good logical response to this?
 

Sooth

Pelican
Gold Member
The person you're debating doesn't value logic - there is no point arguing with them.

The reason abortion is wrong is because humans are created by God in His image. Abortion of a fetus is murder of an innocent human.

Proverbs 26:4-5
Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him.
Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own eyes.

The only difference between murdering a fetus and murdering a 5 year old is time - which doesn't exist to God since He abides in the higher dimensions.
 

Ah_Tibor

Pelican
Woman
Orthodox
Every abortion argument comes down if they think it's a human being, or not. To me that's a basic moral and ethical consideration, so the idea of "safely" killing is an entirely moot point.

Most illegal abortions were done in doctor's offices, as well. The "back-alley abortion" tends to be sensationalized as propaganda.

Medical research is a huge recipient of aborted fetuses. I think the entire situation is much worse than is usually discussed.
 
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NoMoreTO

Hummingbird
Catholic
The specific point I'm referring to is the "relative safety" point... that making abortion illegal will simply lead to back-alley abortions, and therefore won't save lives, but will rather kill women (or potentially kill them) along with the baby. What's a good logical response to this?

It's a tough answer, and your response might vary depending upon the person you are dealing with.

The maternal instinct when at it's best, the mother places her own child's value at or above her own. The risk to the child is 100% death rate, so if the risk to the mother is 10-50%...well where does that place the value of the child?

As mentioned above by @Ah_Tibor , it really does come down to whether they view the child in utero as a human being or not. Many people view it as a lesser form of human.
 

Pray_Everyday

Robin
Woman
Other Christian
If you wanted to answer them according to their folly...

"Back alley abortions will kill Women".
What's wrong with killing women?
"What's wrong with killing murderous women?"

Abortion is murder and murder is punishable by death both under old and new testaments. Gen 9:6, Num35:30, Rom13:4, Acts25:11
 

NoMoreTO

Hummingbird
Catholic
It's actually a good time to have real conversations about abortion, to help others to rethink their positions.

10 years ago, if someone brought up abortion, a 'left' person would just ask "why would you bring that up?"

But today, they are bringing it up, so the door is really open. Obviously many will not listen or consider and are rooted in their position, but there is opportunity to explain and perhaps even evangelize.
 

IconWriter

Woodpecker
Woman
Orthodox
Gold Member
The specific point I'm referring to is the "relative safety" point... that making abortion illegal will simply lead to back-alley abortions, and therefore won't save lives, but will rather kill women (or potentially kill them) along with the baby. What's a good logical response to this?
That sounds like the same kind of reasoning in the arguments: They are going to do drugs anyway, give them free needles. They are going to have sex anyway, give them condoms. They are going to drink anyway (minors) so let them drink at our house for the next party. On and on.
 

IconWriter

Woodpecker
Woman
Orthodox
Gold Member
It's a tough answer, and your response might vary depending upon the person you are dealing with.

The maternal instinct when at it's best, the mother places her own child's value at or above her own. The risk to the child is 100% death rate, so if the risk to the mother is 10-50%...well where does that place the value of the child?

As mentioned above by @Ah_Tibor , it really does come down to whether they view the child in utero as a human being or not. Many people view it as a lesser form of human.
Some are pushing for a law to be passed that allows a woman to decide to let her baby die even after giving birth.
 

Ah_Tibor

Pelican
Woman
Orthodox
I'm a little disturbed at women who are ranting about how they want(ed) more kids but now it's "too dangerous" because something might be abnormal and they can't abort.

I feel like women and girls are just irrationally fearful of pregnancy and complications now. Yes, something always could go wrong, but are you going to live your life that way? Are you going to use a precedent of ectopic pregnancy where there's no chance of delivering a viable baby to extend to "I dunno this test said they might turn out funny" or "we're poor" or "my mental health will suffer" (whatever that means)?

Selfish people sterilizing themselves may prove to be good in the long run, I don't know.
 

Luna Novem

Kingfisher
Woman
Catholic
I'm a little disturbed at women who are ranting about how they want(ed) more kids but now it's "too dangerous" because something might be abnormal and they can't abort.

I feel like women and girls are just irrationally fearful of pregnancy and complications now. Yes, something always could go wrong, but are you going to live your life that way? Are you going to use a precedent of ectopic pregnancy where there's no chance of delivering a viable baby to extend to "I dunno this test said they might turn out funny" or "we're poor" or "my mental health will suffer" (whatever that means)?

Selfish people sterilizing themselves may prove to be good in the long run, I don't know.
Yeah, as long as they're liberals, I say, good. There's no baby being killed nor is there a child being raised tyrannagender and triglyceridesexual.
 

Viktor Zeegelaar

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
0.2% of abortions are the often referenced rape/incest, about 1% is reasons like mother's health/mental health (whatever that means). More than 98% is elective, i.e. a safety net for hypergamy, women wanting to erase their decision to have a baby as the man isn't the top guy they're looking for to be with long term, or the guy isn't expected to stay around for the long term. Never forget this. Check Florida abortion stats for more.

In regard to the pro abortion point, that's like saying we forbid candy, but maybe the person will start to eat chips then. It's just a crock of nonsense, an exception to the rule that they'll always try to find in order to justify and rationalize their poor life decisions.
 

Luna Novem

Kingfisher
Woman
Catholic
0.2% of abortions are the often referenced rape/incest, about 1% is reasons like mother's health/mental health (whatever that means). More than 98% is elective, i.e. a safety net for hypergamy, women wanting to erase their decision to have a baby as the man isn't the top guy they're looking for to be with long term, or the guy isn't expected to stay around for the long term. Never forget this. Check Florida abortion stats for more.

In regard to the pro abortion point, that's like saying we forbid candy, but maybe the person will start to eat chips then. It's just a crock of nonsense, an exception to the rule that they'll always try to find in order to justify and rationalize their poor life decisions.
That's deep. I didn't even know how to respond to that right away. I have never thought of it via the lens of "the man isn't the top guy they're looking for to be with long term." That's honestly really sad.
 

Hypno

Crow
Can I abort my ex-wife?
If you wanted to answer them according to their folly...

"Back alley abortions will kill Women".
What's wrong with killing women?

Can I abort my ex-wife?

The only difference between her and a child is age. Back alley is a red herring.
 

No-Designation Man

Kingfisher
Other Christian
The specific point I'm referring to is the "relative safety" point... that making abortion illegal will simply lead to back-alley abortions, and therefore won't save lives, but will rather kill women (or potentially kill them) along with the baby. What's a good logical response to this?
If you wanted to answer them according to their folly...

"Back alley abortions will kill Women".
What's wrong with killing women?

First, I now need their definition of what a 'woman' is. :hmm:
 

No-Designation Man

Kingfisher
Other Christian
0.2% of abortions are the often referenced rape/incest, about 1% is reasons like mother's health/mental health (whatever that means). More than 98% is elective, i.e. a safety net for hypergamy, women wanting to erase their decision to have a baby as the man isn't the top guy they're looking for to be with long term, or the guy isn't expected to stay around for the long term. Never forget this. Check Florida abortion stats for more.

In regard to the pro abortion point, that's like saying we forbid candy, but maybe the person will start to eat chips then. It's just a crock of nonsense, an exception to the rule that they'll always try to find in order to justify and rationalize their poor life decisions.
You have raised a very interesting point in the first paragraph of this^ post that I have always wondered about when I used to peruse manosphere websites. I have seen the following parroted endlessly, with only slight variations in the wording:

"Evolutionary Psychology, Bro! Women only want to bang Alpha Males with superior genes!"

An interesting claim^. In the United States, alone, over 60 000 000 (to date) results of copulating with 'superior genes' were aborted.
On top of that, how many women getting banged in nightclub bathrooms and college campuses are on the pill and/or use condoms to prevent getting pregnant in the first place by so-called 'superior genes'?
 

Elipe

Ostrich
Protestant
The specific point I'm referring to is the "relative safety" point... that making abortion illegal will simply lead to back-alley abortions, and therefore won't save lives, but will rather kill women (or potentially kill them) along with the baby. What's a good logical response to this?
If you're talking to a leftist, just throw the slippery slope fallacy argument back in their face. Banning abortion doesn't cause back-alley abortions. Women of poor character do. I remember when they were claiming the slippery slope fallacy when we were talking about gay marriage back in the day, so that's a good one to throw back in their face.

And like another poster mentioned, 1.2% of abortions (if it's really even that) are done for non-convenient reasons, and red states that ban abortion should already have escape clauses in the law that allow it in the case of that 1.2%. So what's the problem, exactly?
 
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