Hugs Are Dangerous

Oremus

Chicken
Trad Catholic
Originally posted on RooshV.com

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It is extremely unsafe to hug a pretty woman. I expect most men to scoff at this notion and ignore it, but a hug with someone you’re attracted to is a form of intimacy, and intimacy before marriage turns on the treadmill of lust and sets the speed to a brisk jog before steadily ramping up to a sprint. One “innocent” hug can begin a course of heavy temptation that entices you into sin and blocks your ability to properly evaluate a woman for marriage.

There is nothing wrong with a platonic hug, the form of which you’d give to an aunt or grandmother. It features minimal contact between bodies, only the shoulders and upper chest around the collarbones, and is often completed with a comforting pat on the back. It is important to physically touch those whom you care about to give support and show affection, so there is no need to deny someone a platonic hug that may be what they need to feel loved and get through the day.

An intimate hug, however, is simply a variant of horizontal bedroom embrace. Your body and her body are so firmly pressed against each other that you can feel the cushion of her chest and the fat and muscle of her thighs. In such an embrace, you can perceive the exact proportions of her feminine curves as if you measured them with a ruler. With this description alone, I’ve entered into the realm of the pornographic, not from my imagination but from the reality of an intimate hug, the type of which fallen men innately crave with women whose bodies they incessantly daydream about. The fact that she’s wearing clothes matters little, because is the mind not capable of removing clothes? Unfortunately, many women already exist in a state of semi-nudeness, especially during the summer, so even for the dull-witted man, imagination is not required. When you add the emission of feminine scent from her neck and hair, whether pheromonal or chemical, your slavery to her body is sealed. This one “innocent” hug will amplify your passions to such an extent that lustful thoughts, a sin itself, become only the beginning of your fall.



I’ve lost count of how many Orthodox couples I’ve seen using secular behavior in their courtships. They drink alcohol together. They give each other googly eyes. They hold hands. They hug incessantly. They use secular vocabulary like “boyfriend,” “girlfriend”, and “dating.” They position themselves so close while seated that they can feel the heat of each other’s breath. They even kiss! They do all this and say they are in “Christian courtship”! They are dating like any secular couple dates, but moving slowly enough so that they can deceive themselves that they are courting when in reality they are in a veiled seduction. Many couples will succumb to mortal sins if they think all that I have listed is permissible, and the very first step of physical intimacy is the hug. If their courtship happens to end, they have caused so much real damage to their souls with the attachment that came from their rationalized sexual foreplay that they will have to repent for months before considering another try, all because they started with the wrong notion of what a hug can do. A hug does not smother passions, but lights them like a spark.

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Before I converted to Orthodoxy, I was in a pre-courtship with a woman (the relationship has since ended). I could see that she liked me and craved a bit more affection than merely talking to her as if I were conducting a live stream. As a consolation for her needs, I decided to give her a hug. So passionate was that hug that I remember it more vividly than many of the most vile sexual sins of my past. It took place at night, outside the house she lived with her parents. If they were watching, they would have seen nothing that offended the virtue of their daughter. It was just a hug, after all, but through that hug I gained a detailed blueprint of her body and the signature of her pleasing feminine aroma, and because of that I had to use all my willpower and faith to fight the temptation to keep from hugging her repeatedly and doing just a “little” more. Thankfully, God was with me, and I did not fall in the flesh, but I learned my lesson: if I am considering a woman to be my wife, I will not hug her outside of the awkward platonic hug, hunched over so that only the tips of my shoulders touch her body, whose shape and softness will remain unknown to me until our wedding night, and if that’s too extreme for her, there is a long line of men who will be happy to hug and hug and hug her and serve the physical needs of her body. It’s also not fair to my future wife that I so vividly remember the hug with that woman, and it surely isn’t fair to me if my future wife remembers hugs and much more that she had with other men. Not hugging a woman is the best way you can honor your future wife.

You may be thinking the following, “Look, we’re humans and we make mistakes. It’s okay if I fall. I’ll confess and repent and everything will be fine.” Many people who fall don’t get back up. Southeast Asia is packed full of European men whose taste of the female flesh has led to carnal addiction and a state of spiritual deadness. Are you so foolish to think that you are strong enough to willingly dance with Satan and walk away unscathed? With such noxious pride, it’s a miracle you’ve even made it this far in my article. Personally, I don’t want to imagine the grace that God would remove from me if I so deliberately transgress His commandments when I was taught of its danger through first-hand experience and the teachings of the Church.



Another reason not to hug is that it becomes impossible to properly evaluate and vet a woman for marriage when you are in a state of even mild passion, and if you’re trying to evaluate a woman you’re having sex with—forget it! You might as well marry a woman sight unseen to at least have a chance at a marriage that doesn’t end in divorce! You won’t ever be able to judge a woman you’re sleeping with because your flesh is firmly in the driver’s seat, guided by Satan, and all you can think about is when your pee-pee, your false god, can use her body as an instrument of your selfish pleasure. The same goes with kissing, hand holding, and hugs. While they are not sex, you have an imagination, don’t you? The physical touching paints an immediate and bright picture of her naked body and what sex will be like, completely damaging your ability to evaluate her as a wife. If you think that your courtship is holy because you’re merely kissing on the lips instead of having sex, you’re dead wrong. You’re still corrupting each other and framing your courtship around pleasure instead of spiritual discernment.

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The bad news is that even if you refrain from all physical affection during courtship, and she’s beautiful, you still will not be able to judge her properly. Her visage alone is tempting to your dumb flesh, and it’s not hard to construct a rudimentary sketch of her body from incidental touches, but at least in this case you have a chance at proper discernment. For fleeting moments, you can transcend her body and contemplate if she would be a suitable wife for you. However, if you’re intimate, even with hugs alone, it’s close to hopeless! Your discernment is practically zero, yet Satan will have no problem convincing you that you are being wise and prudent with your secular intimacy so that you marry someone you shouldn’t and put your salvation and hers at risk.

If you look at the history of courtship, men never had to make a decision to marry a woman wholly on their own (and neither did women), but involved parents, other family members, and the Church to guide that decision for them. The fact that you are deciding yourself is already dangerous, and if you add physical intimacy, you might as well be gambling in a Las Vegas casino, hoping for a lucky spin of the roulette wheel.



If I am in a courtship with a woman, I will not give her a full-body hug. I will not learn about the contours of her body, I will never get a whiff of her glandular scent, I will be blind to her flesh and ability to please my flesh. If she needs a platonic hug, I will do so in such an autistic manner that the last thing on our minds will be sex. I must do this, not only to obey the commandments of Christ by blocking potential avenues of temptation, not only because I respect her and do not want her to fall, but because I want to be able to see through her body and into her soul. Does she understand what’s at stake with our decision to marry? Is she ready to follow me into Paradise? Is her soul compatible with my soul? I’ll have a reasonable chance of answering these questions if I refrain from all physical contact. Otherwise, I might as well be back in the nightclubs, checking out women with my eyes to see which specimen pleases me the most. That I refuse. The next woman I hug will be my wife, and if I don’t get married, I shall never hug a woman again.

Read Next: How To Control Your Lust
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Great article, especially on the points of your family and parish community historically having a large role in finding a partner. Even the best of us have trouble shaking the secular standards of dating we grew up on and were brainwashed with in Hollywood. Fr Ripperger has a great talk on (traditional) courtship on YouTube, reaffirms all you’ve said here.
 

Jive Turkey

Woodpecker
Orthodox Catechumen
I read a book about relationships written by a man who courted his wife in the 1920s/1930s if memory serves. He was an American. Once he went on a double date and accidentally grazed the back of the girls neck. A few weeks later he revealed he was not planning to propose and apparently the woman's mother showed up and *blistered* him at his front door for "sullying her daughter" with that touch when he had no intention of marrying her.

So it may seem strange to us, but I would imagine this would be a historically normative mindset in Christendom. But again, it will vary from time to time and culture to culture. I imagine that in late medieval Italy norms would be more relaxed than in say in Victorian England or America. I could be wrong though. Certainly nothing compared to the degeneracy we have today. In Colonial times, there was a practice, which I find very cute, of sewing betrothed couples into bedsheets and letting them spend the night together talking. In the morning the mother would come in and undo the sewing. This would ensure they couldn't touch each other (underneath the clothes), but it allowed some intimacy. If at one end of the spectrum we have no hugging and hand holding and on the other first date sex, we as Christians need to be much closer on the spectrum to the former.

I personally think it depends on the person. I think little affections may not be ruinous to some, but they often times lead to more.

The more pertinent argument (to my mind), is could you find someone, even in the church, who would go through courtship so strictly? Obviously if possible more power to them, but that is an argument from practicality rather than morality.

Also people forget that after a (relatively) short courtship and engagement people will have the rest of their marriage to touch and hug and squeeze as much as they want. Part of the trouble with the secular/modernist mindset is that not only must we unlearn making pleasure and personal satisfaction the idol of our lives, we also must learn to think not only about our actions over the course of our lifetime, but intergenerationally as well. Say you live 70 years, and spend a year in courtship, and then 45 wedded. That is """"sacrificing"""" less than 1% of your life to act as a MASSIVE insurance policy for the final ~65% of your life. The ROI on not holding hands is actually probably massive, but we as moderns do not think in these terms. If someone has a five year plan and sticks to it today they are truly an outlier. However, we must think about the rest of our lives, the impact of our actions on our children, as well as eternity.
 
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Rob Banks

Pelican
As a 33 yo virgin who has been in long-term relationships which included making out I can't say I share this view.
Yes, even from my experience there is a risk of going too far, but it's natural for relationships to progress evenly in desire, intellectual intimacy and commitment categories. I wouldn't want a woman who I don't know whether she desires me physically.
If you are with a godly woman you can arrange reasonable boundaries and guard each other not to overstep them and if you do repent together in front of God, the key point is to set them wisely so there is no danger of having sex even if you overstep them.
This sounds much like the "I wouldn't wanna buy a car without test-driving it" attitude of many modern and pleasure-minded people.

In other words, your same logic/state of mind is routinely used by modern people to justify fornication.

Jacob kissed Rachel when he met her for the first time and waited 7 years before marrying her. You, with your past of serial fornication now went to the other extreme and criticize even hand-holding...
I'm no Bible scholar, but I doubt Jacob kissed Rachel on the lips or in any sort of sensual way before marrying her.
 

Luispiz

Chicken
Trad Catholic
I read a book about relationships written by a man who courted his wife in the 1920s/1930s if memory serves. He was an American. Once he went on a double date and accidentally grazed the back of the girls neck. A few weeks later he revealed he was not planning to propose and apparently the woman's mother showed up and *blistered* him at his front door for "sullying her daughter" with that touch when he had no intention of marrying her.

So it may seem strange to us, but I would imagine this would be a historically normative mindset in Christendom. But again, it will vary from time to time and culture to culture. I imagine that in late medieval Italy norms would be more relaxed than in say in Victorian England or America. I could be wrong though. Certainly nothing compared to the degeneracy we have today. In Colonial times, there was a practice, which I find very cute, of sewing betrothed couples into bedsheets and letting them spend the night together talking. In the morning the mother would come in and undo the sewing. This would ensure they couldn't touch each other (underneath the clothes), but it allowed some intimacy. If at one end of the spectrum we have no hugging and hand holding and on the other first date sex, we as Christians need to be much closer on the spectrum to the former.

I personally think it depends on the person. I think little affections may not be ruinous to some, but they often times lead to more.

The more pertinent argument (to my mind), is could you find someone, even in the church, who would go through courtship so strictly? Obviously if possible more power to them, but that is an argument from practicality rather than morality.

Also people forget that after a (relatively) short courtship and engagement people will have the rest of their marriage to touch and hug and squeeze as much as they want. Part of the trouble with the secular/modernist mindset is that not only must we unlearn making pleasure and personal satisfaction the idol of our lives, we also must learn to think not only about our actions over the course of our lifetime, but intergenerationally as well. Say you live 70 years, and spend a year in courtship, and then 45 wedded. That is """"sacrificing"""" less than 1% of your life to act as a MASSIVE insurance policy for the final ~65% of your life. The ROI on not holding hands is actually probably massive, but we as moderns do not think in these terms. If someone has a five year plan and sticks to it today they are truly an outlier. However, we must think about the rest of our lives, the impact of our actions on our children, as well as eternity.
Can you please indicate the book or something like that?

Thank you bro
 

bucky

Hummingbird
Other Christian
The worldly would doubtless scoff at the idea that "hugs are dangerous" but I have to admit that as a married man, I can see no good reason to hug a young, attractive woman who isn't my wife or a relative. Even the latter is probably best avoided if it's a relative on my wife's side. I've seen other married men hug young women and girls at church activities and it's a bad look.

If that's the case for a married man, the same reasoning should probably apply to a man who's single.
 

Germanic

Chicken
Other Christian
The older I become the more I become convinced that arranged marriages should be the norm. It's a shame that the Christian tradition for arrange marriages has disappeared.
Absolutely important point, I think. If marriages would be arranged, this would massively reduce the problem of maintaining your judgement prior to marriage. However, who should do the arranging for you, especially since many of our fathers are not especially kings of making the right judgements in life?

Does anyone know whether there are specific Church canons on how a marriage should be initiated?
 

OrthoSerb

Robin
Orthodox
Why did you so conveniently skip what I wrote about Jacob and Rachel?
I wasn't launching a full on point by point rebuttal of everything you wrote. I was simply commenting on "making out" and holding hands. The idea that the Biblical story you mentioned backs up your view on making out during courtship I didn't consider necessary to rebutt. I can see another member has since provided some decent commentary on your take.

On the other hand, you with your talking about what is "natural" without any Scriptural support - tell me, why do you think that you are qualified to tell me what I should do?
I didn't state anything that was my own invention. This is advice that my spiritual father gave me, that the Church teaches and that used to be commonly accepted and practiced in any Christian culture (and even non-Christian ones at that).

Are you in a fruitful marriage where you didn't kiss your bride before the wedding day? Or did fornication make you an expert in godly courtship? I'm really curious.
Neither. I am courting and trying to walk the walk.
 

TheosisSeeker

Sparrow
Orthodox Catechumen
I agree in principle and if I had a time machine I would not engage in hugging or any of these behaviors, but I just don't see it as a realistic option.

Let's be a real, if you are a man over 30 with these requirements who will you court? Will you hit the jackpot with the 20 year old virgin in your church? That's a longshot. So outside of say living in an ultra conservative country who's in the dating pool who will agree to a romanticless courtship and also miraculously not be pursued or turn down every other guy? 1 out of 1000, 1 out of 10,000? Again I wish a woman like this existed for all of us to marry and they did in the past, but I don't have any idea where they are now.
 
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TheosisSeeker

Sparrow
Orthodox Catechumen
I read a book about relationships written by a man who courted his wife in the 1920s/1930s if memory serves. He was an American. Once he went on a double date and accidentally grazed the back of the girls neck. A few weeks later he revealed he was not planning to propose and apparently the woman's mother showed up and *blistered* him at his front door for "sullying her daughter" with that touch when he had no intention of marrying her.

So it may seem strange to us, but I would imagine this would be a historically normative mindset in Christendom. But again, it will vary from time to time and culture to culture. I imagine that in late medieval Italy norms would be more relaxed than in say in Victorian England or America. I could be wrong though. Certainly nothing compared to the degeneracy we have today. In Colonial times, there was a practice, which I find very cute, of sewing betrothed couples into bedsheets and letting them spend the night together talking. In the morning the mother would come in and undo the sewing. This would ensure they couldn't touch each other (underneath the clothes), but it allowed some intimacy. If at one end of the spectrum we have no hugging and hand holding and on the other first date sex, we as Christians need to be much closer on the spectrum to the former.

I personally think it depends on the person. I think little affections may not be ruinous to some, but they often times lead to more.

The more pertinent argument (to my mind), is could you find someone, even in the church, who would go through courtship so strictly? Obviously if possible more power to them, but that is an argument from practicality rather than morality.

Also people forget that after a (relatively) short courtship and engagement people will have the rest of their marriage to touch and hug and squeeze as much as they want. Part of the trouble with the secular/modernist mindset is that not only must we unlearn making pleasure and personal satisfaction the idol of our lives, we also must learn to think not only about our actions over the course of our lifetime, but intergenerationally as well. Say you live 70 years, and spend a year in courtship, and then 45 wedded. That is """"sacrificing"""" less than 1% of your life to act as a MASSIVE insurance policy for the final ~65% of your life. The ROI on not holding hands is actually probably massive, but we as moderns do not think in these terms. If someone has a five year plan and sticks to it today they are truly an outlier. However, we must think about the rest of our lives, the impact of our actions on our children, as well as eternity.

Yes. We can not compare times of the past to now. If I could find a woman who would go through courtship in good faith like roosh has said I am all for it. The reality is unless it's a teenager relationship it's a real longshot. (In the west)
 

fortyfive

Kingfisher
Other Christian
Life without hugs has no meaning. Joe Biden

Ok, I forgot to add an explanation for the people without the slightest sense of humor. That quote above is a joke!
Joe Biden never said that (probably)

(A joke is a display of humour in which words are used within a specific and well-defined narrative structure to make people laugh and is usually not meant to be taken seriously. Wikipedia)
 

FrancisK

Pelican
Catholic
Gold Member
Hug dead on chest to a chest a woman that isn’t YOUR woman, I agree that’s not something normal to do that’s too much and it would mean something further if you did that.

But I’ll side hug my cousins or something like that just shoulder shoulder to show them some respect to our closeness as family, like saying hey you mean more to me than just a hand shake.
 

Salocin

Woodpecker
Other Christian
Maybe it's just my retarded zoomer brain, but I can't see the issue with dating, having a bf/gf, hugging, or even kissing them. Obviously it is better for your spirituality to abstain from such things completely, but I don't think they're as bad as the article implies.
Those behaviors almost assuredly leading to fornication is the reason why they are as bad as the article implies.
 

Starlight

Kingfisher
Woman
Protestant
I agree with this article. I’d like to add, for both men and women, that it’s ok to refuse a hug or physical contact if it makes you uncomfortable. You don’t have to let someone hug you, or touch you, etc. A handshake or a nod/wave will do just fine. If the other person is upset or offended then that is on them.
 
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