I hate the corporate world, especially in IT

Travesty

Crow
Gold Member
After reading all this I have to say it sounds like systems and network guys have a much shittier starting out.

If you become a web, app, firmware, or embedded developer with skill and a portfolio of work your option even at graduation or at most 1-2 years into your career are seemingly much better without the need for certs.

At the right companies I'd say (about 15-20% of software shops) devs are treated very well. You need to hold out for those companies. There are literally so many opportunitied you just have to slow play and go through 10 easily lined up interviews to find the golden one.

These companies are usually in urban trendy areas where the CEO, CTO have dev backgrounds themselves, are 35-45 yo, very SWPL, and understand what you bring to the table.

Absolutely refuse to work for or with a bunch of Indians, FOBs, or Boomer Generation and you are good.

These enclaves exist because they work well and produce high quality software without the bullshit.
 

puckerman

Ostrich
Bergalerg said:
I'm looking to go into computer information systems management as my major.

I'm going to provide advice and am willing to bet you'll ignore it. Change majors and go into something else. Have you read all the posts in this thread?

From what I can see experience and certs are important for the first 5 years then you move on to a better paying job that isn't shit?

In the first five years, you don't have much experience. In my experience, certifications are worthless. I had an A+ in 1998 and was an MCSE on NT 4.0 in the year 2000. Neither was any help.

I picked this major because it makes the most and seems like the least amount of effort.

Who told you that it makes the most? Who told you it has the least effort? I've busted my ass for 16 years and don't make over $50,000.

Have you talked to people who work in this industry?

I am good at just about everything

Are you really? Then why do you want to go into IT? How do you think? How do you make decisions? If you are so smart, then why are you making a critical life decision based on some stupid data you read on some web site?

so I just followed average salary dollars for job choice

Are these average salary dollars just for working people? Or do they include the unemployed and count them as zero in the average? How do you know this information is true?

Have you talked to people who do this work?

and I am a very content person by nature so I don't have extreme passions when it come to working somewhere.

Then you'll grow to hate it pretty fast. Of course, if you truly are this apathetic, you might do okay. There's a ton of apathy in the industry, and the most apathetic people rise to the top.

I don't think you are looking for advice. You have posted this, and you want someone to validate your decision. You'll probably end up learning the hard way.

Whatever career choice you make, get out and talk to people who to do the work. Ask them if they like their jobs or if they hate their jobs. Ask them how they got into it? Ask what they like best and least? Talk to people, instead of reading web sites.
 

iknowexactly

Crow
Gold Member
Kaii said:
Have any of you been in this situation? How did you handle it?

I really just want to feel free.

Thanks for reading and any advice would be great.

Oh, IT work sucks unless you have an unusual niche ( outside consultant who can work remote.) or the type of personality that doesn't mind being in the POD.

I did it for years, programmers especially good programmers are usually very schizoid, meaning they don't really like human interaction as much as average people do. I've been criticized by management for having a five minute conversation because that meant I wasn't programming.

They essentially want a machine.

The most fun type of work I had was with

1) a database I liked and I did consulting
2) ONLY WORKED PREPAID BY THE HOUR,
3) stated in the contract I would not work any specified minimum of hours.

Being prepaid and really beating it into them that I do not do project pricing made it hugely easier.
 
Awesome thread. Really resonates with what I'm experiencing here in the Bay Area. These top companies really project an awesome image publicly, but once you're on the inside it's just business as usual and they target paying people lower than the going rate -- I heard that the target is roughly 75-85% of the market rate (read: peer companies) of the role.

Take this whole fiasco, which Tech Workers in the Bay Area are still in denial about:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014...racy-estimated-cover-one-million-workers.html
 

RockHard

Kingfisher
Gold Member
roid said:

You are essentially a money making machine for someone else.

Joel Spolsky said something similar years ago http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000074.html

Imagine that the goal of your software company is not to solve some specific problem, but to be able to convert money to code through programmers.

Taken another way, you are a machine to create money by writing code. That's why "fuck you, pay me" is the way to go. If you don't have equity in the company, or if you do have equity but the prospects aren't good (and you don't have golden handcuffs - i.e. your options aren't vested yet and you'd be walking away from a lot of money), then all you get is salary, and you're very likely underpaid.

Computer Information Systems Management - are you getting a 4 year degree to be a sysadmin? Not necessary. Sysadmins are generally pretty overworked because they're the ones who are getting texts at 2AM because the database is on fire.

Read this: http://stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks It's a very accurate and cynical take on what life is like as a dev or sysadmin:

Remember that stuff about crazy people and bad code? The internet is that except it's literally a billion times worse. Websites that are glorified shopping carts with maybe three dynamic pages are maintained by teams of people around the clock, because the truth is everything is breaking all the time, everywhere, for everyone. Right now someone who works for Facebook is getting tens of thousands of error messages and frantically trying to find the problem before the whole charade collapses. There's a team at a Google office that hasn't slept in three days. Somewhere there's a database programmer surrounded by empty Mountain Dew bottles whose husband thinks she's dead. And if these people stop, the world burns. Most people don't even know what sysadmins do, but trust me, if they all took a lunch break at the same time they wouldn't make it to the deli before you ran out of bullets protecting your canned goods from roving bands of mutants.

It sounds like funny postmodern cynicism. It's not. I've been doing this for 20 years. I know people who've worked for Microsoft, Amazon, Apple.
 

Kaii

Woodpecker
Gold Member
Thank you all for the replies and the interest in the PM list. I haven't forgotten about you guys, I will be sending out PMs shortly.

Thanks.
 

Griprip08

Sparrow
Kaii said:
Thank you all for the replies and the interest in the PM list. I haven't forgotten about you guys, I will be sending out PMs shortly.

Thanks.

Hey guys, newly inducted into the IT world myself (always grew up with it). Performance engineer for EMC. I'm new to the whole system/world of corporate (coming form 6 years of restaurant life-style), I could really use some guidance/help as well!

Thanks in advance!
 

iknowexactly

Crow
Gold Member
Glaucon said:
I hate my IT job. The management is just a joke. I am doing everything I can to start my own business.
Often I wonder how things even function with this kind of negligence.

What happens to computers that started working ten years ago?

That's about what happens to programmers that started working ten years ago.

Don't get involved unless you are earning at a level where you can get out by 35-40.

I am so glad I got into health care instead, after a dreary career as a mediocre programmer. Sometimes the patient dies. That's not a "bug" I have to fix.
 

The Wire

Kingfisher
Gold Member
Bergalerg said:
I'm looking to go into computer information systems management as my major. From what I can see experience and certs are important for the first 5 years then you move on to a better paying job that isn't shit? Any advice would be appreciated i'm going to a state university basically for free because of scholarships and I picked this major because it makes the most and seems like the least amount of effort. I am good at just about everything so I just followed average salary dollars for job choice and I am a very content person by nature so I don't have extreme passions when it come to working somewhere.

I have Bachelor's in Computer Information Systems.

Don't worry about certs at the start. You want to focus on your University getting you internships and then making sure you are able to leverage those internships into job offers or at the very least you them as references when you graduate. Once you start your job somewhere and have a path you want to go down you can worry about certifications.

I wouldn't call it a rewarding career by any means but im also not stupid enough to act like it's the worst position to be in either.
 

The Wire

Kingfisher
Gold Member
puckerman said:
Who told you that it makes the most? Who told you it has the least effort? I've busted my ass for 16 years and don't make over $50,000.

Have you talked to people who work in this industry?


I think he is basically saying that a Computer Information Systems major has similar pay to top paying computer degrees(Computer Science, Computer Engineering) but the catch is the coursework is easier. In this case I do agree with that. 50k starting out of college is very doable. Most top out around 100k with enough experience and then you need to move into management positions to go higher.
 

iknowexactly

Crow
Gold Member
The Wire said:
I wouldn't call it a rewarding career by any means but im also not stupid enough to act like it's the worst position to be in either.

true, i did it to get out of the kitchens of the world and it worked.
 

The Wire

Kingfisher
Gold Member
Glider said:
Some of you guys really should come to Australia for a couple of years. 6 figures is pretty easy to get in IT.



Isn't the cost of living in Australia really high as well? You can get 100k easy in the U.S. as well in high cost areas like Mountain View, CA.
 

TravelerKai

Peacock
Gold Member
Getting a degree in basket weaving won't make a hill of beans of a difference. Experience is king. Get your certs if you do not have a Management Information Systems degree, Supply Chain, Computer Science, etc. All a college degree does is tell them that you can read, write, perform arithmetic, form coherent statements, and possibly present information in a meeting well enough not to embarrass your bosses in front of their peers. People without a college degree often times get looked over because they tend to be less professional. Making super rude comments, poor ethics, lacking attention to details, and a lack of critical reading skills for research purposes. Also some managers feel that a 4 year degree means that they feel like you know what it is like to sacrifice for 4 years for something important. Like a rite of passage. Also, they do not want to be the guy that cannot promote a good worker to a supervisor or manager role that does not have a 4 year degree, all because HR and company policy demands it, so it's better to just throw all those resumes in the trash can if they have plenty to pick from.

Internships are powerful if you are still in college. If you are not in college with zero experience get your certs, pay for a boot camp, or video class.

Here is a sample blueprint I sent someone else in a PM last month.

If you want the fastest money track with the best pay starting out, I would have to say Network Engineer by far is still the best for that.

Get Cisco certified on routing, switching, wireless, or security, etc.

Basically it goes like this

CCENT -> CCNA -> CCNP -> CCIE

Cisco Certified Entry level, CC Networking Associate, CC Network Professional, CC Infrastructure Engineer

Pay ranges are the following:

40-50K -> 55-75K -> 75K-150K -> 200K-500K

If you choked at the CCIE pay, I can understand. Most people have no idea the kinds of money the guys behind the black curtains that keep the internet working. Those are are the elite of the elite. No one passes their first test attempt either. After you pass, Cisco offers you a job on the spot. Many turn it down and check the free market instead.

Anyway you could drop 5,000-10,000 on a Cisco academy to get you to CCENT and CCNA or self study with videos and simulators for a few hundred bucks. I don't know how much you know about IT, so it's hard to say which ones would work for you.

If networking is not something you are interested in, let me know because there are other areas of IT you can still do well or get good pay. If I had to do it all over again, I would have done the above^

Hope this helps.

If you are a SQL/Database Engineer, make sure you take the time to get fully certified as high as possible. Regardless of your experience. Doing shit like that make you almost recession proof. IT is competitive nowadays. A guy with lots of experience and certs is always picked over anyone else.

I always read this Salary Guide, every year, that is dead accurate for almost any IT position and comes with all kinds of nice information.

Robert Half IT Salary Guide

I wanted to attach it to this post but it was 2.4mb large and the limit for the pdf is 2.0mb.

Do yourselves all a favor and always keep up with the salary trends for your particular area of specialty. Since no company is loyal to us, make sure you get your credentials up to as high as possible, and adopt the "Fuck You, Pay Me" mantra.

Great states/cities for IT are Seattle, Phoenix, Houston, Dallas, Raleigh N. Carolina, New Jersey, Austin, Madison WI, Atlanta, Nashvile, San Fran, Santa Clara.

Feel free to ask me anything about this stuff. I will subscribe so that I can follow the thread better as well.
 

TravelerKai

Peacock
Gold Member
Austin has had issues lately but it still has a number of jobs. Blackberry failing hurt the city last year. The city is known for niche stuff and Dell. Houston has had troubles as well but it still ranks very high for IT jobs worldwide. Eventually things change, like Microsoft moving their Datacenter stuff to Dallas because Washington raised property taxes on them. Just gotta make sure you have the best credentials in case you need to move, and work on being financial and location independent in your spare time. If you want to climb corporate work on an MBA.
 

OSL

Ostrich
Gold Member
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Hello gents. Don't want to hijack the thread but are there any full stack web devs around, preferably those who have experience with iOS/Android and maybe some UI/UX design?

If so, please get in touch - thank you.

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