Incels And Fornicators Are Almost The Same

The Beast1

Peacock
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
Out of touch stuff like this this is meme’d about in black pill circles.

I mean do you honestly believe this kind of condescending advice is helpful in repairing the cultural degeneracy and the modern perversion of relationship dynamics.
Yes, be the change that you want to see in the world.
I shower without soap except certain regions, only scrubbing my body with bath sponge. Am I an incel? A volincel? Does it matter if I take a cold shower? Does that make me Chad? Clean body will obliterate all the degeneracy on my path and lands me a virgin wife yes? I even have a floating quacking duck in my soapy bubble bath, the edges alighted with candles. Sometimes he-although I'm not sure of preferred pronoun, I'll say "they" to be respectful- talks to me and give me profound redpill wisdoms. They is nice. They quacks a lot.

Legit questions
Your rubber ducky is really gender fluid since it's a bath toy you water amusement phobe.
 

thejoyofhate

Pigeon
Catholic
Neither of you answered the questions. Another thing: Don’t smoke weed.

I don’t want to hear any of this Black Pill nonsense until when and if you guys are taking care of yourself. That means lifting. That means diet. That means losing weight. That means no drugs (that includes no weed) and no drunkenness. That means expanding your social circle. It also means bathing and showering every day, but that’s only one item on the list. Don’t be whining about how horrible the world is until when and if you are doing the entire list, not just one or two items on the list.

For the record, I was myself an incel who blamed the world for my lack of a wife. But I changed things: I got off my butt, and I did every single item on the above list. I didn’t skip even one of those items, and, guess what, I met a beautiful woman who wanted me and who became my wife. If I did it, so can you.

These aren’t boomer platitudes. I met my wife only a little over a decade ago. Other people here got married just five years ago.

Stop with the excuses and start with improving your life.
I'm upper 20s, don't drink, don't smoke weed, have battled with lust for years but have been seeing victories over it lately by God's grace, am 6'5 200lbs, lean, eat clean, am a CPA, have a house, a close group of friends etc. No success with women, however, largely because of being introverted and not compromising on my Catholic faith. I've done everything by the book, and beyond. And guess what's about to happen? I'll likely be fired for not getting the vaxxx or taking a weekly test unless the Supreme Court rules in my favor. And the solution to this totalitarian and Marxist rot that has made it's way through every institution, including traditional gender roles and marriage is to shower every day and make sure you lift?

Come on man. It's much deeper than that.
 

The Beast1

Peacock
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
I'm upper 20s, don't drink, don't smoke weed, have battled with lust for years but have been seeing victories over it lately by God's grace, am 6'5 200lbs, lean, eat clean, am a CPA, have a house, a close group of friends etc. No success with women, however, largely because of being introverted and not compromising on my Catholic faith. I've done everything by the book, and beyond. And guess what's about to happen? I'll likely be fired for not getting the vaxxx or taking a weekly test unless the Supreme Court rules in my favor. And the solution to this totalitarian and Marxist rot that has made it's way through every institution, including traditional gender roles and marriage is to shower every day and make sure you lift?

Come on man. It's much deeper than that.
Your introversion isn't the problem. The problem is you're unnecessarily excluding a huge pool of potential women. My wife was Episcopalian. Immediately fixed that when we were dating.

Do the same.
 

infowarrior1

Crow
Protestant
Neither of you answered the questions. Another thing: Don’t smoke weed.

I don’t want to hear any of this Black Pill nonsense until when and if you guys are taking care of yourself. That means lifting. That means diet. That means losing weight. That means no drugs (that includes no weed) and no drunkenness. That means expanding your social circle. It also means bathing and showering every day, but that’s only one item on the list. Don’t be whining about how horrible the world is until when and if you are doing the entire list, not just one or two items on the list.

For the record, I was myself an incel who blamed the world for my lack of a wife. But I changed things: I got off my butt, and I did every single item on the above list. I didn’t skip even one of those items, and, guess what, I met a beautiful woman who wanted me and who became my wife. If I did it, so can you.

These aren’t boomer platitudes. I met my wife only a little over a decade ago. Other people here got married just five years ago.

Stop with the excuses and start with improving your life.

Yes, be the change that you want to see in the world.

Your rubber ducky is really gender fluid since it's a bath toy you water amusement phobe.

Sword and Board has a family. So its not quite true in his case.
 

infowarrior1

Crow
Protestant
I'm upper 20s, don't drink, don't smoke weed, have battled with lust for years but have been seeing victories over it lately by God's grace, am 6'5 200lbs, lean, eat clean, am a CPA, have a house, a close group of friends etc. No success with women, however, largely because of being introverted and not compromising on my Catholic faith. I've done everything by the book, and beyond. And guess what's about to happen? I'll likely be fired for not getting the vaxxx or taking a weekly test unless the Supreme Court rules in my favor. And the solution to this totalitarian and Marxist rot that has made it's way through every institution, including traditional gender roles and marriage is to shower every day and make sure you lift?

Come on man. It's much deeper than that.

Even in light of those geopolitical issues. As they go to show. You have a greater chance than people who don't do what you do. Its not that its not true.

Its the fact that you are letting those larger issues make you despair in general. Wallowing in what cannot be changed in your lifetime unless you are going to gather together with other Men to fight against said wickedness isn't helping.

Again. Its not guarantee but you are already on the right track when it comes to getting past the goalie. If you making those shots that 0.1% chance is much more of a possibility than otherwise.

Pray about it too.

That is if you believe that getting a wife is what you want to ultimately achieve. Forget about doing it all just to attract a woman. Do it for yourself. And be ready to go without.

But learn to be content with what you have already achieved.
 

placer

Kingfisher
Protestant
No success with women, however

To be fair here, you are dating normally, so you don’t have the issues other posters in the thread have. You have had at least one “woman to show basic concern” with you in your life (you may not be interested in her for various reasons, but she did let you take her to dinner), and the “lift, get off drugs, stop porn, take care of your weight” advice is for someone who isn’t even able to get that first date.

Lifting, diet, and being drug-free allowed me to get dates with women. I couldn’t find wife material in the US, mind you, but I was getting women wanting to be with me, and could had fornicated if I had wanted to. I am glad my faith has been strong enough to avoid that temptation.

It actually took me moving to Latin America to find someone with the family values I wanted in a wife and to find a family-centered woman instead of a career-centered woman.
 

ScannerLIV

Woodpecker
Its obvious that one should look abroad to find an ideal wife. I think the main chief complaints made are aimed at finding that ideal wife in USA, or in Anglo countries.

I'd like to direct your attention to Australia. There your average guy is tall, very fit (often jacked) and tend to have that stereotypically boisterous Australian personality. Sans being Christian, pornography use and prone to drinking often just like everywhere else.

Even if the three negative qualities forementioned were fixed, they have lack of crap for options in the dating pool. Your average woman there is overweight, foul-mouthed and extremely entitled not unlike in America. Same divorce law issues. Considering the Australian characteristics, the situation is far more dire there.

Thus the extreme increased sexual dimorphism in which your average Australian male is quite attractive in looks and character simply result in extreme imbalance for which females have zero incentives to improve themselves and make them more attractive, slim and feminine. Moreover females, as in USA are completely sexually, economically and socially liberated with society being gynocentric oriented.

As a consequence, there exists even more selective pressure on males to undertake more endeavors- more money, more looks, more status to find a mate. I would not want to be an Australian living in that hellish jungle.

This isn't to absolve men for being willfully participants in this racket to their detrimental.

Yet for those males who seek a wife and family formation, and are red-pilled, the situation is not favorable at all, and the odds even worse than here in America.

Now let's imagine that every man here in America follows the advices espoused here to the T. Guess what, we simply end up with the same extreme imbalances as in Australia and thus the pool of eligible women smaller, and higher ratio of overweight women who now have no incentive to improve themselves.

A man can only do so much. It is not at the individual level at issue here. It is the macro societal at legal and cultural landscape being rotten to the core and for which the only "solution" is complete collapse of the civilization. The march unimpeded and the tide too high to overturn. Decades in the making.

We have simply returned to the primitive past with large rippling exceptions. In the past vast majority of males die off without mating due to wars, lack of resources and difficult circumstances. Today, it's the reverse. Large pool of males will not find an ideal mate not due to lack of resources or war but the absolute female liberation repleted with intentional cultural, legal, academics, media and political socio-engineering aimed precisely at suppression of stable, prosperous civilization which necessitates family formation and high trusting homogeneous society.

The solution is clear: for vast majority of males in the western countries in the same dilemma as we have here; look abroad.
 

Kiwi

Woodpecker
Orthodox Inquirer
I wrote something on another thread on attraction in marriage:


I had an female Indian manager at a job once who told me and some other of my co-workers that she was engaged to her husband after meeting him for 45 minutes. I remember her exact words: "For us, the marriage comes first and the love comes later".

I also had an Albanian friend who married a girl from his home country. He met her randomly in the capital city while he was in Albania visiting relatives. After returning to the US, they stayed in touch online and he asked her if she wanted to get married on there. I remember his words regarding his marriage as well. He said when making the decision he treated it like he was making a buying a house or making any sort of big purchase. He had a list and thought of all the good points about her (She's from a good family, she is educated, she is attractive enough) in the same way people make decisions about buying a car or whatever. He had also said that in the beginning of their marriage they he did not love her but that after a few years, he did start loving her. They have two sons now.

I've been thinking for a while now if when it comes to marrying a woman if it is best to disregard attraction and chemistry. For modern people it seems inconceivable to marry someone unless you are already in love and have romantic affections for her but if you look at most of human history, most marriages were not based on romance. Rather it was for the purpose of forming a family unit. The way our period views marriage is what is aberrant and abnormal compared to the entirety of human history.

There's something about that part in bold that is so upside down, yet rings true. Perhaps the commitment to love through the lens of marriage vs commitment to marriage through the lens of love. Both seem different foundations to build on.

I had the same experience in India on my travels talking with young Christian couples newly married, and some older couples too. India is a land of contradictions, so it wasn't out of the ordinary in some ways to find out about arranged marriages. A fascinating culture no doubt.
 

placer

Kingfisher
Protestant
Now let's imagine that every man here in America follows the advices espoused here to the T.

While imagining things which will never happen, I have a more pleasant fantasy: Let’s imagine that even woman in America becomes thin again and chaste until marriage.

The thing about Red Pill self-improvement is this: Only a small fraction of men will actually do it Lifting, not being obese, not smoking weed, not watching porn, not being a drunk, having a good diet, and having Godly values will put any man that actually does them all in the top 20%. Most men will continue to blame circumstances for their woes in life; relatively few men actually improve and become someone who can date.

The solution is clear: for vast majority of males in the western countries in the same dilemma as we have here; look abroad.

That’s what I did. I could had fornicated with decent looking and fit, if not beautiful, girls in the US who were not wife material, but I decided I wanted a beautiful wife so I looked abroad and a beautiful God-fearing wife and family is what I got.
 

placer

Kingfisher
Protestant
If we actually had a lot of men motivated enough to do red pill improvement or to go to another country to find love, women in the US would become more feminine and better wives again to counteract it. The reason our country is in the state it’s in is because of apathy among too many men.
 

The Prime Minister

Sparrow
Orthodox
Pipe dream.
Exactly. The "if men were men, then women would fall in line" mentality is very flawed. This mindset absolves women of all responsibility and subconsciously puts women on a pedestal. It reinforces the "women good, men bad" mentality and it blames young men for women's immorality instead of calling out women directly. Instead of blaming it all on young men, women need to be called out for their behavior instead of simping for them and treating them delicately with kid gloves.
 

DavidKnight

Pigeon
Catholic
Boomers and their kindred Moomers never seem to operate in good faith when it comes to the realities faced by incels. To highlight a few of the many changes which have impacted the modern dating arena:

1. The closure of countless social hangout spots like nightclubs, bars and malls, both before and after Fauci released biological warfare on the West.
2. Diminished social skills based on the permeation of texting and digital interaction. Also, higher levels of autism due to late pregnancies, FDA-approved chemicals, and excessive diagnosis/prescribing of meds.
3. Increased job opportunities for women, which make the allure of the average provider guy less appealing.
4. Earlier repeal of laws which made it difficult for single women who use birth control to get mortgages or rent apartments.
5. The gap in college degree attainment between the sexes, with women disqualifying many decent men on that basis.
6. Online dating, which allows females to pursue the best-looking men she might otherwise not come across in real life.

Someone earlier in the thread advised these fellows to not go looking for a trad wife. What's funny is that we seldom see the former PUAs on this forum talking about witnessing to their ex-lays in hopes of turning one into a future spouse. In fact, one of the most popular solutions appears to involve courageously fleeing to SEA for a submissive Filipina wife. If the experts on self-improvement and maintaining frame are not comfortable with using their skills to rustle up a wife in the West, maybe that says something about the conditions incels are experiencing.

BTW, I highly doubt all incels are overweight, unkempt, and smelly basement dwellers. That seems like a feminist trope used to avoid addressing the issue. Since many of these chaps are relatively young, they should focus on gaining the resources which will permit them to eventually improve their prospects elsewhere, assuming this lockdown nonsense does at some point end.
 

Sword and Board

 
Banned
Catholic
Western men fleeing abroad doesn’t really fix the root of the problem. It’s kicking the can down the road. The (((elite))) are bringing in thousands of thirsty immigrant men to fill your spot daily so women aren’t exactly going to panic that they need to reflect and adjust. They will always take the path of least resistance whilst they are constantly told they can do no wrong.

I think it was scannerLIV who made a good point a few posts back too that if every man followed this get jacked, get money and most importantly… bathe daily tsk tsk formulae. All we will get is overweight uncouth women demanding more of men and raising their standards. Nothing will have improved on the female end.

There is something seriously wrong with the culture and relationship dynamics in the west. We need to rid ourselves of this (((cultural Marxism))) and return to traditional Christian ways.

People speak of depopulation agenda’s/conspiracy. Im not sure if it’s intended for everyone or more specific groups. It must be said it is definitely a phenomenon we can see with European and Christian peoples throughout the world.
 

pathos

Sparrow
Orthodox Inquirer
If the experts on self-improvement and maintaining frame are not comfortable with using their skills to rustle up a wife in the West, maybe that says something about the conditions incels are experiencing.

BTW, I highly doubt all incels are overweight, unkempt, and smelly basement dwellers. That seems like a feminist trope used to avoid addressing the issue. Since many of these chaps are relatively young, they should focus on gaining the resources which will permit them to eventually improve their prospects elsewhere, assuming this lockdown nonsense does at some point end.

Very much agree. The word "incel" has become absolutely meaningless these days as it gets tossed around quite liberally to broad-brush single men, most of which would be married with children under normal circumstances. The reality is that we're all programmed to want to procreate so celibacy used to be the exception, not the norm, because patriarchal societies provided marriage as a means to channel our innate sexual energy and in doing so created a more or less functional harmony between "male" and "female" where adultery and fornication were punished.

But since the patriarchy has been abolished and marriage has been stripped off its meaning thanks to no-fault divorce laws and feminism, [civil] marriage has become absolutely meaningless, and sex is just a commodity. The false idol of "equality" has destroyed the natural complementarity of the sexes, upsetting the balance between men and women, and leading the West to become effectively ruled by women. It's the worship of the Feminine as its foundational principle, demonically inverting the natural order. As a result, we have deep-seated structural problems that prevent men from bonding meaningfully with women as well as from gaining financial and professional stability even if they wanted to and did what they possibly could.

So to brush off as "black pill" what is essentially a "truth pill" and accuse people of wallowing in self-pity when they point out these problems is, frankly, intellectually dishonest. You correctly pointed out some of those structural problems in your post, DavidKnight.

It's time to stop mocking "incels" as degenerate "failures" and aim our arrows at the demons that have created "incels" in the first place. This quote from the movie Fight Club quite accurately assesses the nihilistic society they've created:

Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy stuff we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our great war is a spiritual war... Our great depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars, but we won't. We're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.

Considering the rates of unemployment, depression and suicide among young men in the West, we have a very, very serious problem on our hands and pretending we can just solve this by telling individuals to "hit the gym" is nothing short of delusional in my book. And not just in the West for that matter. Look at Japan, look at what's happening to South Korea! Have we seriously lost all touch with reality? Did our (great-)grandfathers need to "hit the gym" to get married? Of course not. How many of them had time for "hobbies" or needed to "expand their social circles", you think? Mine never had the luxury of having "hobbies" or a "social life" yet they still got married, never divorced, and were able to provide for their families despite their limited means - their wives may have complained as women like to do, but overall they were content.

If anything, I think we should teach the more demoralized among the "incels" to courageously accept reality and redirect their negative emotions toward more wholesome pursuits rather than obsessing over what they cannot have or is beyond their immediate control. Above all, their spiritual well-being, by putting God first; but also by encouraging them to take care of their emotional, personal, physical, financial or professional improvement... for their own sake and not primarily as a matter of increasing their chances of finding an overly idealized "trad" wife.
 

pathos

Sparrow
Orthodox Inquirer
The reason our country is in the state it’s in is because of apathy among too many men.
The reason your country - and most of the West along with it - is in "this" state has nothing to do with men's "apathy" (if only they were more "apathetic" in the original sense of the word). It has everything to do with the willful and skillful subversion of Christendom and its subsequent entrenchment in the legal system, which would take nothing short of a revolution, an all-out war, abject poverty, or a mass conversion of the populace to truly undo at this stage.
 

Lawrence87

Woodpecker
Orthodox
Fornicators are the drug addicts who have enough money and contacts etc to get a supply.

Incels are the drug addicts who are down-and-out, looking for a hit, and begging anyone they come across to give them something to feed their addiction.

They're addicted to the same drug.
 

Spro23

Pigeon
Catholic
Lawrence I daresay the creator gave men a sex drive to compel them into pursuing the opposite sex. I don't know why you find this aspect of nature a reason to denigrate them. Why do you think marriage often occured shortly after puberty for most women (15-18) throughout history? You think these teenage weddings were motivated by "pursuing God"? Lol.

It's more accurate to say they need to learn to tell women no. But most men won't get that opportunity anyways.
 
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Lawrence87

Woodpecker
Orthodox
Lawrence I daresay the creator gave men a sex drive to compel them into pursuing the opposite sex. I don't know why you find this aspect of nature a reason to denigrate them. Why do you think marriage often occured shortly after puberty for most women (15-18) throughout history? You think these teenage weddings were motivated by "pursuing God"? Lol.

It's more accurate to say they need to learn to tell women no. But most men won't get that opportunity anyways.
I don't know where you read that into my post. I don't deny that marriage is a perfectly reasonable context to fulfill sexual urges. However it's not removed from the context of procreation and one is called to abstain at certain times etc.

If you don't think serial fornicators are addicted to sex then I don't think you understand them.
 
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