Incels And Fornicators Are Almost The Same

pathos

Sparrow
Orthodox Inquirer
If you don't think serial fornicators are addicted to sex then I don't think you understand them.
I think the point is that in the absence of the patriarchy and a natural outlet for young men through lawful marriage, it's inevitable that we end up with an army of disgruntled, angry and frustrated men who feel lost. Few of our forefathers had to endure celibacy until their thirties or forties and fight all the modern temptations we have on top of that, like pornography or women publicly dressing worse than street hookers did in the 19th century. There's a reason patriarchal societies typically punished adultery and fornication (though especially so in the case of women) and enforced a dress code on women while still tolerating prostitution on some level. One might say that's "hypocritical" but it's because they were realistic about human nature. We should obviously be teaching and promoting the virtue of sexual abstinence to single men and the mess we're in may even be an opportunity for many of us to pursue that goal and stop pedestalizing women in the process. But it doesn't change the fact that what we have today is contrary to the natural order and unsustainable. And in the end it's bad for both sexes and therefore society as a whole. Even Saint Paul was realistic enough to tell those "burning with desire" to get married. He could say that because he lived in a patriarchal society - but we no longer do. I predict that if this goes on, violence will ensue sooner or later when the hoards of "incels" or divorce-raped men wake up to reality and seek their revenge. Their existence is a symptom of a much deeper problem.
 

Roosh

Cardinal
Orthodox
Lawrence I daresay the creator gave men a sex drive to compel them into pursuing the opposite sex. I don't know why you find this aspect of nature a reason to denigrate them. Why do you think marriage often occured shortly after puberty for most women (15-18) throughout history? You think these teenage weddings were motivated by "pursuing God"? Lol.

It's more accurate to say they need to learn to tell women no. But most men won't get that opportunity anyways.
If you're using your "sex drive" to find a wife that you will certainly select a woman based on lust (i.e. the wrong woman).
 
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pathos

Sparrow
Orthodox Inquirer
If you're using your "sex drive" to find a wife that you will certainly select a woman based on lust (i.e. the wrong woman).
That's not how I interpret @Spro23's message though, Roosh. I think what he's driving at is that we're naturally inclined to seek a wife and procreate and marriage used to be one of the ways in which society dealt with the problem of lust. You're right, of course, that we have to exercise self-control and struggle against our passions. Still, even St. Paul said the following:

But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. -- 1 Corinthians 7:8-9

The flesh is weak. This is why at a societal level we need the patriarchy to keep the passions in check and channel men's weaknesses toward matrimony, with God's grace sanctifying the marital bond. The current configuration encourages lust to reign in our hearts.
 

Lawrence87

Woodpecker
Orthodox
I think the point is that in the absence of the patriarchy and a natural outlet for young men through lawful marriage, it's inevitable that we end up with an army of disgruntled, angry and frustrated men who feel lost. Few of our forefathers had to endure celibacy until their thirties or forties and fight all the modern temptations we have on top of that, like pornography or women publicly dressing worse than street hookers did in the 19th century. There's a reason patriarchal societies typically punished adultery and fornication (though especially so in the case of women) and enforced a dress code on women while still tolerating prostitution on some level. One might say that's "hypocritical" but it's because they were realistic about human nature. We should obviously be teaching and promoting the virtue of sexual abstinence to single men and the mess we're in may even be an opportunity for many of us to pursue that goal and stop pedestalizing women in the process. But it doesn't change the fact that what we have today is contrary to the natural order and unsustainable. And in the end it's bad for both sexes and therefore society as a whole. Even Saint Paul was realistic enough to tell those "burning with desire" to get married. He could say that because he lived in a patriarchal society - but we no longer do. I predict that if this goes on, violence will ensue sooner or later when the hoards of "incels" or divorce-raped men wake up to reality and seek their revenge. Their existence is a symptom of a much deeper problem.

The problem with incels though is that they cannot take responsibility for their being an incel, or for the state of the society that puts them in such a position. They tend to just blame women for not liking 'nice men'. And it's not like they see the real problem. They just see the problem that everyone else is getting to have sex and they aren't. They'd be fornicators if they were able, they just lack the social skills to achieve it, and the common sense to understand how to tackle the problem.

The responsibility to change things lies with men. And this involves men learning self-control. Men need to stop pursuing feminist, fornicators, and pursue godly women who want to commit to a man and raise a family with traditional values. If men did this society would change and the patriarchy would re-assert itself. This is what a patriarchy is; men in control. Not just of society but of themselves. As things stand men are not in control of themselves, and thus they are not in control of society. It doesn't matter how much you burn with desire, to get out of this mess you've got to get a handle on it, even if that means not having sex for a very long time.
 

pathos

Sparrow
Orthodox Inquirer
The problem with incels though is that they cannot take responsibility for their being an incel, or for the state of the society that puts them in such a position. They tend to just blame women for not liking 'nice men'. And it's not like they see the real problem. They just see the problem that everyone else is getting to have sex and they aren't. They'd be fornicators if they were able, they just lack the social skills to achieve it, and the common sense to understand how to tackle the problem.

The responsibility to change things lies with men. And this involves men learning self-control. Men need to stop pursuing feminist, fornicators, and pursue godly women who want to commit to a man and raise a family with traditional values. If men did this society would change and the patriarchy would re-assert itself. This is what a patriarchy is; men in control. Not just of society but of themselves. As things stand men are not in control of themselves, and thus they are not in control of society. It doesn't matter how much you burn with desire, to get out of this mess you've got to get a handle on it, even if that means not having sex for a very long time.

Nobody here is arguing against single men repenting of their sins, accepting and dealing with reality, putting their trust in God, and abstaining from premarital sex. I'm all for that. What some of us are arguing is that it's an oversimplification of reality to suggest that this mess of a society is the fault of ordinary men lacking self-control and that all it takes to turn it around is for them to regain "self-control". I believe this serves no purpose other than to add even more culpability to men who are berated on a daily basis.

There is a deeper, societal dimension to the problem that goes beyond mere individual responsibility.

The destruction of the patriarchy in the name of equality is a concerted and ongoing ideological effort to undermine society and destroy masculinity by inverting the natural order. It's Eve ruling Adam with God entirely out of the picture. It's not an "organic" change at all. It's reflected not only in the legal system but also in education, the corporate world, the entertainment industry, mainstream politics, in many churches, and in the economic realities many young men are facing which prevent them from fulfilling their natural role as providers.

Modern-day Western society's configuration is such that it is conducive to sin and vice and destructive of the family unit, whereas prior to Feminism society's configuration was more in line with natural law and therefore more conducive to virtue and family formation. "Incels" did not create this society; they merely inherited it. They are the product of a lost civilization soaked in nihilism, and it's too easy to claim they are entirely responsible for the state that they're in. I put "incel" between brackets because in reality it really just means "single men".

Obviously we all agree that this does not give single men license to fornicate and blame women for all their problems, but I'd say it does imply diminished culpability in the sense that society has taken away men's very raison d'être. In other words, some problems are beyond our immediate control as individuals. There is only so much you can do as an individual - even if you "hit the gym" and lead a holy life, which you should (the latter in any case), the odds in society are still against you by their very design, and you may still end up remaining single.

Some here argue it's "black pill" merely to point this out. I say it's simply plain reality. You don't have to agree but I hope this clarifies.
 

Lawrence87

Woodpecker
Orthodox
Nobody here is arguing against single men repenting of their sins, accepting and dealing with reality, putting their trust in God, and abstaining from premarital sex. I'm all for that. What some of us are arguing is that it's an oversimplification of reality to suggest that this mess of a society is the fault of ordinary men lacking self-control and that all it takes to turn it around is for them to regain "self-control". I believe this serves no purpose other than to add even more culpability to men who are berated on a daily basis.

There is a deeper, societal dimension to the problem that goes beyond mere individual responsibility.
There might be more to it than just men lacking self control, however in terms of solving problems all we can hope to do is assume our individual responsibility. I honestly think if every man seriously did this there would be a huge amount of change for the better.

I think it is important to emphasise that men need to change. This is not akin to the kind of berating that men get from feminists is more like an encouragement to be what they are. It's a positive thing for a man to realise his responsibility to embrace his purpose and to develop discipline. I don't think it is on any level the same as the berating men get from feminists. But ultimately moaning about the state of women or what feminism has done is not a solution, nor is it proactive. The most pro active thing a man can do is to take responsibility for themselves and stop exacerbating the problem.

Like I say. If enough men actually did this, you'd soon start seeing a change in the women. We can't make other men change, but that doesn't mean we cannot take responsibility for ourselves. We aren't entitled to a wife, or anything else in this world. We can either whine about how feminism has ruined everything and how if only some one else would come and restore the patriachy for us, or we can do something however small to reduce our involvement with the evils of this world
 

Sword and Board

 
Banned
Catholic
Men need to stop pursuing feminist, fornicators, and pursue godly women who want to commit to a man and raise a family with traditional values…

You’re not wrong, but with a little foresight we can see as society degenerates rapidly that women like this will simply not exist or be a rare find.

Ironically good men will be forced to “incel” waiting for a unicorn.
 

placer

Kingfisher
Protestant
[...] in terms of solving problems all we can hope to do is assume our individual responsibility. I honestly think if every man seriously did this there would be a huge amount of change for the better.

I think it is important to emphasise that men need to change. This is not akin to the kind of berating that men get from feminists is more like an encouragement to be what they are. It's a positive thing for a man to realise his responsibility to embrace his purpose and to develop discipline. [...] ultimately moaning about the state of women or what feminism has done is not a solution, nor is it proactive. The most pro active thing a man can do is to take responsibility for themselves and stop exacerbating the problem.

Like I say. If enough men actually did this, you'd soon start seeing a change in the women. We can't make other men change, but that doesn't mean we cannot take responsibility for ourselves.

I agree with all of this. It’s a win-win situation for men:
  • If only a relatively few men get fit, develop integrity, develop self-confidence, live a Godly life, and marry abroad if a woman in the west who is wife material can not be found, then those men will do OK, even though we live in a sinful generation.
  • If a lot of men were to do all of the above, women will change and they will become more desirable in the west.
Now, truth be told, only a relatively small number of men will take the route of finding love in another country as needed to find a Godly wife. That’s OK; it’s a win for those men and for their wives.

The point is this: There is a solution to incel life.[1] As long as a man blames society for his inceldom, and does nothing to keep his own house in order, he will remain an incel. As soon as he takes the bull by the horns, and does something to change his incel life, he can start the long path to finding a Godly wife and starting a Godly family. It took me years and becoming fluent in another language, as well as very intense exercise, and dealing with online dating, but I got that Godly wife. I stopped being an incel. Within the last 15 years. It can be done

Now, there probably are men out there who will not be able to find a Godly wife, no matter what they do. I think it’s a small minority of the incels out there. If you asked me 20 or 25 years ago, I would had told you that my fate was to die an incel. In the extreme case of being completely unable to find a wife, guess what, you’ve been blessed by God. Let’s go to I Cor 7:7-8 (italics means the word isn’t there in the original Greek, but added to make the passage more readable):

Yet I wish that all men were unmarried like me. However each man has his own gift from God, one being unmarried (Greek: of this kind), and another of that kind. I say to the unmarried and to widows, it is good for them if they remain unmarried, just as I am unmarried.

So, if an incel does everything (physical fitness, not being needy, not making a relationship a priority, being social, online dating at Christianmingle, go to another country if possible, etc.) and still can not find a Godly wife, he is blessed, I repeat blessed with the gift of celibacy. Sometimes, with all the stresses of family life and career life, I have wished I was a celibate monk in a monastery instead of the provider and breadwinner for a family.

I also am sure there are posters and lurkers here who think they have the blessing of the celibate life who, in fact, once they engage in action (Gym, remove neediness, avoiding any and all simping, self confidence, etc.) will find out God’s plan is for them to start a family. That was God’s plan for me, even though I couldn’t see it at the time.

[1] When I say incel, I mean in this post a man who wishes to have a Godly wife. An incel in the sense of a man who wishes to fornicate with a woman regardless of whether she is wife material and regardless of whether or not the sacrament of matrimony has been performed is a sinner, and will continue to suffer in his sin, whether or not he can find someone to fornicate with, as long as he does not repent.
 
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pathos

Sparrow
Orthodox Inquirer
There might be more to it than just men lacking self control, however in terms of solving problems all we can hope to do is assume our individual responsibility. I honestly think if every man seriously did this there would be a huge amount of change for the better.

I think it is important to emphasise that men need to change. This is not akin to the kind of berating that men get from feminists is more like an encouragement to be what they are. It's a positive thing for a man to realise his responsibility to embrace his purpose and to develop discipline. I don't think it is on any level the same as the berating men get from feminists. But ultimately moaning about the state of women or what feminism has done is not a solution, nor is it proactive. The most pro active thing a man can do is to take responsibility for themselves and stop exacerbating the problem.

Like I say. If enough men actually did this, you'd soon start seeing a change in the women. We can't make other men change, but that doesn't mean we cannot take responsibility for ourselves. We aren't entitled to a wife, or anything else in this world. We can either whine about how feminism has ruined everything and how if only some one else would come and restore the patriachy for us, or we can do something however small to reduce our involvement with the evils of this world
There's no doubt in my mind that you have the heart in the right place when you try to encourage men to take the necessary steps to improve their lives and take their responsibility. I think all of us see the value and necessity of that. However, if they "improve" themselves but still find themselves having to move abroad in the hopes of finding a suitable wife, what does that tell you?

In many cases this ends up being a blame game minimizing or denying the societal problems that impact young men or demotivating those who have already undertaken the necessary steps to improve themselves yet still find themselves hitting a brick wall. Marriage may not be a matter of entitlement, but it's what the vast majority of us are called to. In the absence of that prospect, human nature being what it is, it's hardly surprising that men give themselves up to their vices - even more so in a society which teaches that there is no good or evil anyway.

Celibacy used to be the exception for a reason. Here's the thing I think many are overlooking: "marriage" is not merely a spiritual institution, it also has a natural, social and economic function in which both sexes have their roles to play. When I hear people say we have to be "worthy" of a good wife, I don't disagree, but many "worthy" men still do not find a "worthy" wife and will not have offspring that would allow for positive generational change and the formation of our own communities. So technically they remain "involuntary" celibates.

Society used to raise men and women in such a way as to make them mature and fit for marriage at an early age. In doing so they kept the vices of lust and fornication in check and allowed for the bloodline, the culture, the nation, traditions, customs, and faith to be perpetuated. Modern society openly sabotages this. The social fabric made it so that even the less gifted among men could find a spouse, and temporal legislation reflected natural law and favored stability by encouraging monogamy and penalizing adultery, fornication, sodomy, divorce, and infanticide.

Flash forward to the 21st century and we live in an age where cohabitation is the norm; divorce rates keep going up; more children are born out of wedlock than within; birth rates keep dropping to below replacement levels; babies are aborted on a daily basis with taxpayer money; your children are basically State property; young women brag online about getting sterilized or opt to have their ovaries frozen in order to further their careers and claim their "right to have a child" once they've hit 40; young men are relegated to being wage slaves and have trouble finding or keeping jobs; more often than not, they find themselves lorded over by a female-dominated HR department; etc. etc.

All of this sanctioned by the State and Big Business.

This is ultimately what we're up against thanks to the cultural revolution that's been imposed on us and the complacency of previous generations who've burdened young men with the consequences of their utterly irresponsible and perversely selfish choices. It's no wonder that many fall into lust, laziness, vices and despondency when society has deprived them of a higher purpose and actively works against their interests. Men have a need to serve and work for something greater than themselves, e.g. a family, their nation and God. Take that away and chaos will ensue.

Young men should courageously accept reality and do what they can to improve their individual lives. But they do not deserve to be blamed for the feminism that was inflected on them.
 
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Lawrence87

Woodpecker
Orthodox
There's no doubt in my mind that you have the heart in the right place when you try to encourage men to take the necessary steps to improve their lives and take their responsibility. I think all of us see the value and necessity of that. However, if they "improve" themselves but still find themselves having to move abroad in the hopes of finding a suitable wife, what does that tell you?
It's obvious that the women have been corrupted, but that isn't going to resolve by itself. Like I said if every desirable man started to insist on pursuing godly, chaste women you'd strangely start to notice a whole lot more of those kind of women cropping up.

Young men should courageously accept reality and do what they can to improve their individual lives. But they do not deserve to be blamed for the feminism that was inflected on them.

No one is blaming them, but it still remains that every individual man has their own responsibility for how they contribute to an existing problem. If your dog defecated on your carpet, you're not just going to leave it and tell visitors "well it's not my fault, stop blaming me it was the dog" you'd just clean it up. Telling someone to take responsibility is not the same as blaming them. It's just saying "well if you wanna fix it, you know what to do."

I don't know quite what the disagreement is. I don't say it's men's fault that they are in this predicament, but only that it's on men to get out of it. Again nobody is entitled to anything. We are here to serve God that is all. If He seems it necessary that we be single for the rest of our lives in order to be saved then so be it. But also through Him all things are possible.

My point is just saying "If I was born 200 years ago I'd have a wife, then I'd be happy..." Doesn't achieve anything. You were born in this generation, you can't find a wife what are you going to do about it?

Telling men not to be passive victims is empowering to them, it's not blaming them for the situation it's merely offering them a way out of it.
 

pathos

Sparrow
Orthodox Inquirer
It's obvious that the women have been corrupted, but that isn't going to resolve by itself. Like I said if every desirable man started to insist on pursuing godly, chaste women you'd strangely start to notice a whole lot more of those kind of women cropping up. [..]

Lawrence, you and many others keep saying we can fix this mess simply by becoming more virtuous individuals. I'm looking at it from a societal perspective and am saying that I do not believe we can do much about it on the individual level because the problem is too institutionalized.

That doesn't mean I'm saying we shouldn't bother becoming better persons, quite the contrary! I am also not justifying passivity. All of this has been addressed several times already by myself and others.

We are here to serve God that is all. If He seems it necessary that we be single for the rest of our lives in order to be saved then so be it. But also through Him all things are possible.

We are here to serve God and we serve Him by serving others, too, if possible by transmitting the gift of life to children whom we teach the faith. We also have a role to play in society even if it's pagan. I very much doubt God wants to see all His children remain childless when it's the first command He gave to man: "be fruitful", etc. If anything it's our adversary who's more than happy to see us unable to produce offspring and die out. I say that as someone who has a high regard for celibacy and does not idolize the married life. But it is not and never has been the norm. Hence why I keep saying marriage is not only a spiritual bond.

My point is just saying "If I was born 200 years ago I'd have a wife, then I'd be happy..." Doesn't achieve anything. You were born in this generation, you can't find a wife what are you going to do about it?

What we have today is a historical anomaly that was brought upon us by evil intent. This mess goes well beyond just one's lack of ability to find a wife, and I'm afraid that's why you keep missing the overall point some among us have been making here.

But to answer the question: I'm going for celibacy and strive for chastity. But here is the problem: long-term this strategy is undesirable and untenable for the vast majority of young men out there, whether Christian or not. If this became the general trend among Christian men then we'd effectively be signing our own death warrants. Given the low birthrates most of our countries are facing, in large part due to feminism, we're already going extinct. At this point I believe only a miracle could really put an end to societal insanity and restore the balance between male and female.
 

Lawrence87

Woodpecker
Orthodox
Lawrence, you and many others keep saying we can fix this mess simply by becoming more virtuous individuals. I'm looking at it from a societal perspective and am saying that I do not believe we can do much about it on the individual level because the problem is too institutionalized.
I'm not saying we can fix this I'm saying we have to try.

It may be so that things are too far gone, but we have to try. Maybe it will take a miracle, but God may well grant a miracle when sufficient repentance is shown.

I don't really see where we are disagreeing. I just think we have to do what we can as individual men to not participate in the evils of society. We might not receive the reward in this life, but that's okay. Maybe we will plant seeds for later generations, or maybe we are spiraling towards the end. I don't know. But I just think it's a waste of time to blame society, we've just got to pick up our individual cross and bear it, because we are contributing to the denigration of things daily with our sins.

Most people are unhappy with the way things are and that includes women. More and more people are realising that it's untenable to carry on the way we are and are searching for answers and truth. There are reasons to be hopeful.

I don't really see that we have any substantive disagreement to be honest.
 

pathos

Sparrow
Orthodox Inquirer
I'm not saying we can fix this I'm saying we have to try.

It may be so that things are too far gone, but we have to try. Maybe it will take a miracle, but God may well grant a miracle when sufficient repentance is shown.

I don't really see where we are disagreeing. I just think we have to do what we can as individual men to not participate in the evils of society. We might not receive the reward in this life, but that's okay. Maybe we will plant seeds for later generations, or maybe we are spiraling towards the end. I don't know. But I just think it's a waste of time to blame society, we've just got to pick up our individual cross and bear it, because we are contributing to the denigration of things daily with our sins.

Most people are unhappy with the way things are and that includes women. More and more people are realising that it's untenable to carry on the way we are and are searching for answers and truth. There are reasons to be hopeful.

I don't really see that we have any substantive disagreement to be honest.
Lawrence, I didn't mean to single you out here but your reaction to @Spro23's post offered an opportunity for me to clarify why many of us disagree with the trend of blaming society's problems on men. Perhaps that's not exactly your position and I do see you have a more moderate approach, but your posts are still reflective of that trend.

While you don't see the substance of the disagreement, you're still assuming that our position is basically to say that we don't even have to try fixing things; that our point is to just to "blame society" and absolve men from all personal responsibility; that "women" are unhappy with the situation, too (please don't fool yourself now); that our personal holiness will (or can) lead to systemic change; that we have lost all "hope" in pointing out that young men don't bear personal guilt for what society has become.

I maintain that this is an oversimplification of reality. You focus on the individual, I look at the broader context and the ideological forces at play. What you effectively end up doing is still blaming young men, whether intentionally or not, by putting them on a collective guilt trip and brushing off perfectly legitimate concerns as a "cross" they have to bear. More often than not this is accompanied by white-knighting those "poor" women who in times past would have been put to shame for their behavior (often by their female peers, by the way!).

Note that none of us are singularly blaming "women" in general, either. If any of us ever were stereotypical "incels", we've certainly moved past that and become mature enough to know that ultimately women's nature is what it is and we needn't pedestalize them nor hate them for it. But let's not fall into naiveté, either. The "tradthot" phenomenon is still very real and some of us have found out the hard way.

The evil inflicted on young men is hardly something God can look upon favorably, regardless of their personal sins. Individuals don't live in a bubble, after all, they're formed and shaped by their education, society, history, culture, the legal system, and ruled by corporate and political forces which are openly hostile to men. Many young men have virtually no perspectives today and for the most part that is not of their own doing. I've seen how even married young men struggle very much as they face opposition on all fronts, sometimes even from their "trad" wives. They're never good enough and can do nothing right.

We only have direct control over our personal sins and that, of course, is where I agree we have to assume our responsibilities. Yet to characterize confused young men as a bunch of "incel" losers is unfair and simplistic. That's precisely what feminized society calls otherwise normal men just because they lack a girlfriend or wife. The "blame men" trend inadvertently plays into that. At times this turns into a fake piety spiral of feel-good niceties and platitudes that lack realism.

The modern English language regrettably uses the same pronoun for both the 2nd person singular and plural which often leads to misunderstandings. So keep in mind that "you" doesn't necessarily equal "@Lawrence87" here. It's meant as a general response above all.

I'll end this here because I've been repeating myself and I'm afraid we're just talking past each other at this point. If your position helps you to remain hopeful, good for you. Personally, I can do without. There may come a time when you come to the same realization.
 
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MsJNix

Pigeon
Woman
Catholic
Thank you for your honesty in this article. This is true for many men and women today. "eighteen years of my life had passed me by, and the only “children” I accumulated were stuffed animals in the backseat of my car." Fornication is the opposite of procreation. No good can come from it.
 
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