Is boxing underrated?
- Thread starter Andreas
- Start date
- Status
americanInEurope
Woodpecker
Giovonny said:
This reality was taught to me by my dad, who grew up in 1970's North Philadelphia. A "killer" and a "fighter" ... two different things. Growing up in my dad's old neighborhood, we had "fighters" there, guys who just loved to brawl. And were good at it, and it was fun for them. But a killer, that's different. He said you could always tell the "killers" and knew not to fuck with them, an instinct I never acquired or wanted to acquire. I got the fuck out of that mess. Chicago has "killers" and every time I go home I avoid them. Heck, Europe has killers. I think there's a difference. A killer will kill you, there's not much fighting involved, unless something stops him (police, you, etc). I think what you're describing is a fighter.
What Giovonny said is true. I have taken boxing classes and they certainly help but what helps even more is fighting for real, boxing for real, taking real punches with any guard equipment. Until you have taken a real punch you don't know that you can. You don't know what it feels like. Until you have hit someone for real you don't know how strong you are or how hard you have to hit to put someone down. When it comes to fighting there is nothing can can replace experience. An experienced fighter will more likely than not beat an inexperienced fighter with greater skill.
The best thing boxing has taught me is that I can take a real punch. It will hurt, I may go down, there may be blood but I know I can also get back up. Learning to fight through the pain is what experience teaches you. As they say: it's not the size of the man in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the man. My boxing coach was like that - a killer. You took one look at this guy and you knew this was not someone you wanted to mess with. These are guys you want to avoid fighting at all cost. Even if you win, the price is going to be high.
The best thing boxing has taught me is that I can take a real punch. It will hurt, I may go down, there may be blood but I know I can also get back up. Learning to fight through the pain is what experience teaches you. As they say: it's not the size of the man in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the man. My boxing coach was like that - a killer. You took one look at this guy and you knew this was not someone you wanted to mess with. These are guys you want to avoid fighting at all cost. Even if you win, the price is going to be high.
LonerWithABoner
Pigeon
Giovonny said:
Absolute nonsense. Grappling skills beat boxing skills 99 times out of 100.
A grappler in good shape who knows a few basic takedown and submission moves will DESTROY a highly skilled boxer, as long as he gets past the initial punch (which is trivial to do when the boxer has no takedown defense).
Seriously, man. Go check out some of the early "ultimate fighting" matchups where pure boxers got their ass handed to them all the time.
LonerWithABoner said:
Your reply is flawed in many ways, you are thinking like a guy who assumes that all fights are fought on a mat in a MMA gym or inside a cage 1 on 1.
In reality a fight could break out any where, and could involve any set of different variables that could affect the outcome. For example, what are your BJJ going to do if you are attacked by 3 guys? I'm sure someone will argue that if you are a blackbelt you would be skilled enough to break arms, choke guys out, etc. fast enough to neutralize all 3 attackers.
However, in reality, while you are rolling around grappling with the first guy, his 2 other buddies are going to be kicking you in the ribs and stomping on the back of your head. Not a good position to be in, I think a guy highly skilled and trained in Kung Fu, Krav Maga, or Muay Thai would be better suited to defend himself in that situation... That is just my opinion, so you can trash it or disagree all you want.
Also, lets assume you are in a packed bar where people are literally shoulder to shoulder and having to squeeze past each other just to walk through. How are you going to be rolling around and grappling on the floor in that situation. It's most likely that punches would be thrown, maybe you could get in some elbows, clinch, and knees, maybe you could get a good joint lock, or choke, but chances are you aren't going to be taking someone down and rolling around grappling on the ground. Not only would the space be limited, but in those situations people normally jump in and take sides, either joining into the fight, trying to pull the guys off each other, or get into the middle to beak it up.
Another example of how space could affect whether you fight standing up or on the ground. Let's say you are attacked in the crowded parking lot of a mall or shopping center, you are at your car door about to open it, when someone rushes you, the space between your car and the one next to you is about 2 feet, not a lot of space to be on the ground grappling.
Furthermore, someone who is an experienced striker can end a fight with one blow, or a first blow to stun the guy and subsequent follow up blows. I have a very minimal amount of Muay Thai training, I did a little hands only sparring, which was basically just boxing, I have never got hit by a solid elbow, but I know the potential for a damage an solid elbow can deliver. Catch a guy with a hard elbow to the side of the face, or a solid headbutt, get him in the clinch, pull his head down and smash a knee in his face. It could very well be lights out before the fight even gets to the ground.
Butterscotch_stallion
Chicken
MikeCF said:
This is why I get so confused when people say combat sports are violent. Mma , boxing , judo , wrestling. They are civilized competition. With rules that showcase skill and conditioning.
Violence on the other hand , has no rules. Humiliate,Hurt ,Injure,Kill. Brutality and Physics are the only things on display.
I disagree though, in true violence no one wins, someone survives. Violence is a force of nature like a hurricane and martial arts is about taming the beast , so we don't(have to or accidentally) kill.
Jesus Christ. This again? Boxing is awesome. MMA ie awesome. Jiu Jitsu is awesome. Wrestling is awesome. Muay Thai is awesome. People who don't train, but argue about the best fighting sport, are not awesome.
Of all the martial arts, I do think think BJJ is the most efficient which makes it best for guys who are smaller or less athletic. Helios Gracie would have never made it as a boxer or muay thai guy; he was a skinny guy who was so frail as a child they he would faint at school and had to be home-schooled. Look at Royce Gracie in the early UFCs - he was obviously way less athletic then guys like Ken Shamrock, Kimo, Dan Severn, and the like and he would have most likely gotten his ass kicked if he tried to stand and trade with them. However his BJJ allowed him to take the fight into a realm where size and strength did not matter as much. Notice I didn't say doesn't matter because size and strength ALWAYS matter but you can try to stack the deck in your favor in order to balance out your opponent's size and strength advantage.
In all honesty, if your main concern is to defend yourself then a weapon or something like a taser would be the best option. If you are going to learn any martial art or unarmed self-defense system; you are kidding yourself if you think you can just go in for a self-defense class or weekend seminar and come out capable of warding off an attacker. It's going to take months of training multiple times of week which not only costs the money you will spend to pay for the class and also the time invested you could have spent on something else. Learning a martial art is the LEAST efficient way of acquiring self-defense skills. Instead you should go into a boxing or BJJ class because you like the workout and you enjoying mastering a new skill and what not. Being able to fight is just a side perk.
In all honesty, if your main concern is to defend yourself then a weapon or something like a taser would be the best option. If you are going to learn any martial art or unarmed self-defense system; you are kidding yourself if you think you can just go in for a self-defense class or weekend seminar and come out capable of warding off an attacker. It's going to take months of training multiple times of week which not only costs the money you will spend to pay for the class and also the time invested you could have spent on something else. Learning a martial art is the LEAST efficient way of acquiring self-defense skills. Instead you should go into a boxing or BJJ class because you like the workout and you enjoying mastering a new skill and what not. Being able to fight is just a side perk.
RichieP
Pelican
Are we talking street fights or mythical X-practitioner vs Y-practitioner in the octagon bouts? They're two totally different scenarios. People saying "X beats Y" need to think abit more about the context. X vs Y in the ring is mental masurbation and doesnt even occur anymore (not since early UFC days anyway)- all good MMA'ers crosstrain different disciplines.
If we're talking street fight, presumably, in a street fight you want:
-to be able to deal damage standing up, and stay standing up
-to be able to resist being taken to the ground or thrown
-to be able to get out from underneath someone on the ground ASAP
-to be able to avoid getting into a street fight in the first place
-to be able to run really fast
Seems like boxing is pretty good for the first point!
If we're talking street fight, presumably, in a street fight you want:
-to be able to deal damage standing up, and stay standing up
-to be able to resist being taken to the ground or thrown
-to be able to get out from underneath someone on the ground ASAP
-to be able to avoid getting into a street fight in the first place
-to be able to run really fast
Seems like boxing is pretty good for the first point!
Andreas said:
I'll tentatively say that in the case of two equal students with no previous training, Student A takes boxing for six weeks and Student B takes Kung Fu or something like that, Student A will kick Student B's ass in the majority of fight situations.
It's not that other kinds of fighting are not important, it's mostly that from the get-go as a boxing student, you learn really good offensive maneuvers.
I've heard about the combat utility of boxing from people who've been studying martial arts for "X" years who take up boxing on a whim, then find it's an amazing sport. Haven't personally trained in any sort of karate or kung fu.
I currently train jiu jitsu (just a white belt) and am thinking about learning to box. Will group classes at a real fighting gym be worthwhile, or do I need to get one on one training? Whenever you see people training on TV/movies, you see their trainer holding pads and giving one on one attention. I'm worried just doing group classes will lead me to develop bad habits because of the reduced instructor attention, but one on one sessions are expensive. So basically which route should I go:
Group classes which are cheaper which means I'll be able to spend more time in the gym
or
One on one personal training sessions which are expensive, so I'd be able to go once per week at most.
Group classes which are cheaper which means I'll be able to spend more time in the gym
or
One on one personal training sessions which are expensive, so I'd be able to go once per week at most.
There were some very impressive videos in this thread.
I really respect the dedication to the brutally difficult sport many of the commentors show. And the videos are inspiring to take up such an enormously difficult physical challenge.
But, like MikeCF said, "When you're sitting down at work, reading, and your ears start ringing anda headache....then you understand what it means to be a fighter."
I keep coming across studies that show that even mild blows to the head, such as from heading a soccer ball, cause cumulative neurological impairment.
I used to have it my hobby to trade pleasure for gradual physical decline. I drank. I've already had a few mini strokes - I want to be careful with whatever brain cells are still connected.
And I don't expect to ever be in a fight. And even if there was a possibility of one, like others say, verbal de-escalation and flight are the best ways to avoid it. I don't have the lifestyle or live in a community where I need to "stand up for myself" with violence. I don't know if people are over-blowing the need for fighting skills, or if they live in much rougher areas than I've ever lived in.
That said, I love boxing training. Really love it. If there were no risk of long term neurological degradation I might even get into light and possibly heavy sparring. But just the training - heavy bag, double ended bag, speed bag - has value, in and of itself. It's a great workout, increases your coordination, builds endurance muscles in the arms and chest, builds up your heart, and I'm sure it must increase testosterone - even more so that pumping iron. You hold your arms differently when you walk after a session hitting the bag.
So that's my cost-benefit analysis of the sport.
I really respect the dedication to the brutally difficult sport many of the commentors show. And the videos are inspiring to take up such an enormously difficult physical challenge.
But, like MikeCF said, "When you're sitting down at work, reading, and your ears start ringing anda headache....then you understand what it means to be a fighter."
I keep coming across studies that show that even mild blows to the head, such as from heading a soccer ball, cause cumulative neurological impairment.
I used to have it my hobby to trade pleasure for gradual physical decline. I drank. I've already had a few mini strokes - I want to be careful with whatever brain cells are still connected.
And I don't expect to ever be in a fight. And even if there was a possibility of one, like others say, verbal de-escalation and flight are the best ways to avoid it. I don't have the lifestyle or live in a community where I need to "stand up for myself" with violence. I don't know if people are over-blowing the need for fighting skills, or if they live in much rougher areas than I've ever lived in.
That said, I love boxing training. Really love it. If there were no risk of long term neurological degradation I might even get into light and possibly heavy sparring. But just the training - heavy bag, double ended bag, speed bag - has value, in and of itself. It's a great workout, increases your coordination, builds endurance muscles in the arms and chest, builds up your heart, and I'm sure it must increase testosterone - even more so that pumping iron. You hold your arms differently when you walk after a session hitting the bag.
So that's my cost-benefit analysis of the sport.
For practical, real world fighting skills, a combination of boxing and wrestling, with a smattering of jiu jitsu/judo (just enough to know basic chokes/trips/throws) is what you'd want.
Real world altercations are about hitting hard and fast and staying mobile and off the ground. I've never seen anyone pull off flashy martial arts moves in a street fight. They're almost always quick, brutal and ugly to watch, with a lot of wild punching and standing grappling. Violence happens very quickly in real life. There is no drumroll or emotional music to build up to it. There is just tension, then something happens.
That's why the most important thing is being able to deliver strong, fast punches while having the balance and footwork to stay mobile and avoid being taken down to the ground. Keep it simple. Throw punches, keep moving, keep your chin tucked and stay off the ground. Boxing and wrestling are perfect for this.
Real world altercations are about hitting hard and fast and staying mobile and off the ground. I've never seen anyone pull off flashy martial arts moves in a street fight. They're almost always quick, brutal and ugly to watch, with a lot of wild punching and standing grappling. Violence happens very quickly in real life. There is no drumroll or emotional music to build up to it. There is just tension, then something happens.
That's why the most important thing is being able to deliver strong, fast punches while having the balance and footwork to stay mobile and avoid being taken down to the ground. Keep it simple. Throw punches, keep moving, keep your chin tucked and stay off the ground. Boxing and wrestling are perfect for this.
Miles right, you gotta find a legit MMA gym. It's big business now, so you get a lot of places catering to a rich crowd. If your gym doesn't have a fight team, you are probably at one of these gyms. Same with boxing. A lot of upscale boxing gyms out there cater to group classes, and expensive one on one training. These places probably don't train any ammy or pro fighters.
xsplat said:
That's why I stopped training at 31. Microconcussions.
Your body can handle the abuse when younger and recover.
I eat a lot of blueberries and fish oil, though, to heal my brain.
But the truth is this thread, like most about fighting, means fuck-all.
In 12 months guys who are debating will have the same debate in another thread.
Yet how many of them will have expanded their knowledge base by actually going to a gym?
A guy who throws up after a body shot, has a few head aches, and goings from flinching when getting punched to not really giving a fuck isn't going to shit talk boxing.
But you gotta live it to get it...
- Status