Is Civilization much Older than we're led to Beleive?

Heads up for those interested in this topic - Joe Rogan is going to have Robert Schoch on Thursday the 31st and they will be talking about the Sphinx being way older than mainstream science promotes.

Then on Friday, Roseanne.. *grabs popcorn*
 

PharaohRa

Kingfisher
I believe that civilization is much older than we think, and I believe that the events that we are experiencing now are manipulated not only by (((them))) and their partners, but also by the entities they truly serve, whether they be extradimensional or extraterrestrial. Remember, in the Talmud, the Jews say they serve not the God of the Old Testament (who they have forsaken), but entities they call "Archons".
 

Mage

 
Banned
Civilization is relatively new thing.

Humanity and Human Culture however - they are very ancient.

A Civilization and a Cultural society are the opposites of each other if you get what I mean.
 

Hermetic Seal

Pelican
Orthodox
Gold Member
That was definitely my favorite Joe Rogan podcast I've ever heard. Schoch is very interesting, also doesn't come across as a crazy fringe guy like Hancock (even though I think Hancock gets a lot right.)
 

Hell_Is_Like_Newark

Kingfisher
Gold Member
HermeticAlly said:
That was definitely my favorite Joe Rogan podcast I've ever heard. Schoch is very interesting, also doesn't come across as a crazy fringe guy like Hancock (even though I think Hancock gets a lot right.)

Hancock is more of an entertainer. He mixes serious non-conventional research and theories with a lot of fluff and bullshit. Unfortunately, the latter has been, IMHO, detrimental to those who have explored ideas such as the Younger Dryas impact-extinction hypothesis. Once Hancock's name gets attached to something, the idea gets dismissed by many, out of hand.
 

Thomas More

Crow
Protestant
Pride male said:
What defines civilisation? The written language? Calendars? Cities?

I think historians would say it is writing. I agree with Mage that human cultures have existed long before civilization, and that these were often very complex, and may have included large populations and cities. They would have also had extensive knowledge that was passed down by oral tradition. Certainly this is true after the agricultural revolution, but before the development of writing, but I think it is true even before the agricultural revolution.

I think when we talk about civilization being older than we've been led to believe, we are really talking about these higher level cultures, which did not have writing, but did have a level of size and complexity far beyond what most people thing existed back then. I personally think there were large cultures going back 20,000 years or more with at least some fixed site villages or towns that sat on trade routes and that had ceremonial centers serving the people of that culture that lived in the larger region. I assume most people in this pre-agricultural time were still nomadic hunger gatherers, but I expect there were some fixed site villages, that were scattered at wide intervals. Nothing fancy most of the time, but I bet a few did get large for a few centuries, and perhaps some got very large.
 

Hypno

Crow
Pride male said:
What defines civilisation? The written language? Calendars? Cities?

Its simply an advanced stage of social development and organization.

If you look at some civilizations, like the Inca, they do not appear to have written languages yet had a vast empire that was capable of building huge networks of paved trails, Machu Pichu, etc. This required tremendous social organizaiton.

Yet, relative to modern times, they are fairly uncivilized. Did not have the wheel, most metalls, written language, plumbing, etc. Basically a stone age culture, but highly organized.
 

Pride male

Hummingbird
^I dont think the Mayans and Incas built that stuff. Why dont Mexicans built stuff anymore, what happened? How can cannibals understna astronomy and so forth? If you watch Inca tours with Brien Foerster, he explains why the Inca were not responsible for that civilisation.
 

Super_Fire

Kingfisher
Pride male said:
^I dont think the Mayans and Incas built that stuff. Why dont Mexicans built stuff anymore, what happened? How can cannibals understna astronomy and so forth? If you watch Inca tours with Brien Foerster, he explains why the Inca were not responsible for that civilisation.

Because melonheads built them.

Regarding the Maya, their fall was "multi-varied" and is still not understood. Following studies carried out in the 1980s, the prevailing hypothesis seized upon by environmentalists was that the Maya practiced too much deforestation, thereby causing the land to warm up, which caused less rain (exacerbating a severe drought they were already in), and even causing landslides. However, research carried out at Copan on pollen levels shows that forest density there increased during the Late Classical Period (600-900 AD).

Maya society was extremely stratified; its writing system was so hard to read that only the ruling class could do so, and only artists could actually write/draw it. Only the ruling class understood astronomy and serious architecture too. Unlike Eric Thompson's theory (colored by his own bias) of the Maya as peaceful astronomers, they were warlike and their city-states had both allies and enemies, with regicide being common. Wall paintings in Yaxchilan and others bear witness to this. Any sort of peasant unrest and revolt, resulting in the death of the ruling class, would mean a collapse of classical Southern Lowland Maya civilization. The peasantry was simply too uneducated to continue even a semblance of the civilization without the elite class.

There is no accepted theory for the decline, and it wasn't a complete disappearance overnight, hence the movement of power from the lowlands to northern Yucatan and the flourishing civilization there at such centers as Chichen Itza, Uxmal, Tulum, etc. However, it was a different civilization which seems to have been either intermarried or invaded by the Toltecs of Central Mexico, one which held on until the arrival of the Spanish.

If we're to discredit theories of Atlanteans or aliens, I would say that unrest, caused by food shortages, lead to massive revolts in the Southern Lowland Maya civilization, resulting in the death of the ruling class. All the rituals and sacrifices would have done nothing in the face of drought, which would have led to dying populations, unrest, and finally, bloody coups.

For evidence of this, look no further than at the millions of modern Maya living in southern Mexico and Guatemala who carry Maya DNA, some of it unmixed, but none of the intelligence of their fore bearers. It would be analogous to bus drivers and strippers killing off all smart people and trying to take over a country. Not too different from what you see in Venezuela at the moment.
 

Hypno

Crow
Pride male said:
^I dont think the Mayans and Incas built that stuff. Why dont Mexicans built stuff anymore, what happened?

Well both the Inca and Maya had societies that spanned large geographical areas and centuries, so even if you subscribe to some sort of ancient alien theory about how they acquired their technology you have to give them credit for a society that thrived and spread.

The Inca did not have written language, the Maya did. I don't believe either had the wheel or metal tools, just soft metal jewelry

The Maya abandoned their cities, probably due to drought or crop failure. Their DNA persists in Mexico, they did not fully perish, but their society did and this is one of the great mysteries.

The Inca were decimated by European disease. They were probably at only 10% of their former strength when Pizarro imprisoned Atahualpa.

My point was only that a written language is not a prerequisite for civilization, unless you are using that term on a relative basis which is often how it is used.

As an aside, you would think if aliens came and taught them astronomy and masonry they might have at least showed them the wheel.
 

YoungBlade

 
Banned
Inca writing system, called quipu. Can be used for messages, literature, and accounting:
quipu_amnh.jpg
 

Pride male

Hummingbird
^It could have been whites or asians. The Solutreans or somebody else. If they did it before why cant they do it again? The Europeans bounced back from the dark ages and the Chinses from Maoism.
 

Hypno

Crow
YoungBlade said:
Inca writing system, called quipu. Can be used for messages, literature, and accounting:
quipu_amnh.jpg

That's not really writing, now, is it? Its a rudimentary message and counting system.

Can you show me their written literature?
 

questor70

 
Banned
Pride male said:
Why dont Mexicans built stuff anymore, what happened?

Why doesn't anyone build a pyramid anymore? How about a medieval cathedral? The taj mahal?

Monumental archetecture reflects and reinforces a sort of social unity. Everyone contributes to that central symbol.

It's no great surprise that ancient people preferred to work with stone and earth, materials that were already in ready supply AND likely to last a very long time. Contribution to a monument like that conferred a sort of immortality.

Because we are largely an atomized society that is concerned only with immediate gratification, you don't get that anymore. We live in the now of twitter-feeds. Maybe the closest thing in the modern era were things like the Manhattan Project and the the space-race.
 
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