Is immodest clothing worn by women (in public) a form of sexual harassment?

[Starlight]

For those who are interested (@Max Roscoe @earam8778), my “internet opinion”:

The real harms of prostitution

Before we decide whether to legalise prostitution, it is important to know what prostitution is and what it is not. It is not a job like any other job...

www.catholiceducation.org

 

[Pantheon]

My most vivid memory from attending Catholic mass as an inquirer was a woman in tight jeans and a large butt who stood in front of me. Apparently, it didn't seem to occur to her that this made it a challenge to focus on God. Traditionally, pants were not made for women since they are bleeding creatures. Today, it is apparently a sign of progress.

 

[messaggera]

India decriminalizes sex work

India’s Supreme Court has issued orders protecting the rights of sex workers, recognizing prostitution as legal work

www.rt.com

So long as sex workers are consenting adults, the judges ruled, the police may not interfere or take criminal action against them. Voluntary sex work is not illegal, and while running a brothel remains a crime, those plying their trade within one are not to be arrested or otherwise victimized during raids on such facilities.

“Notwithstanding the profession, every individual in this country has the right to a dignified life under Article 21 of the Constitution,” the judges wrote. Mothers who work in the sex trade should not be deprived of custody of their children, nor should children found living in a brothel or with a sex worker be assumed to be trafficked.

Additionally, police must not discriminate against sex workers who are victims of sexual assault. The judges specifically commented on the police’s “brutal and violent” attitude toward sex workers, lamenting “it is as if they are a class whose rights are not recognized.” Justice Rao insisted that authorities refrain from forcing sex workers into shelters or correctional facilities against their will.

 

[messaggera]

Yes, this is the main argument made on the "Christian" sites that I have mentioned previously that wish to place all the blame on the men and none on the women (or postpubescent girls and their parents).

Care to share these sites? I am interested and reading some of these “progressive” Christians.

 

[DanielH]

India decriminalizes sex work

India’s Supreme Court has issued orders protecting the rights of sex workers, recognizing prostitution as legal work

www.rt.com

Started getting people to use toilets and then their birth rate collapses and they decriminalize sex work. If India isn't awful in one way it's awful in another.

 

[Ah_Tibor]

Started getting people to use toilets and then their birth rate collapses and they decriminalize sex work. If India isn't awful in one way it's awful in another.

 

[Pray_Everyday]

Care to share these sites? I am interested and reading some of these “progressive” Christians.

Yes.
Just clarifying that in no way am I endorsing the viewpoints on these links, or agreeing with their positions.


This first one appears to be one of the most popular ones (the search algorithm pops it right up when searching keywords Christian modesty).


The author quotes Mat5:28 (But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart) while leaving out the words "with her" to make the argument that Jesus only blames the men. Very dishonest. If she believed her other arguments were solid why would she be misquoting the verse? Main argument is that focus on modesty is a stumbling block to women. Even though there are dissenting comments allowed, she did not approve my respectfully worded comment pointing this out.

'Don't Be a Stumbling Block' Is a Really Bad Modesty Message

Is "don't be a stumbling block" a good way to talk about modesty?A closer look at the "stumbling block" passages, and what they really say about modesty.

tolovehonorandvacuum.com

This other woman's argument seems to be that there's more to modesty than how we are dressed. Ok, true, but that doesn't mean immodest dress is not a stumbling block, as the men have been posting.

Modesty Misunderstood

I discussed the ongoing misuse and abuse of the concept of modesty in a previous post called The Modesty Myth. Although I touched on many of the same points, this article from Desiring God explains…

graceunderpressureministries.com

In this other post, she says that it doesn't matter what women wear, as long as they're not dressed lewdly, and she doesn't know any Christians who dress that way. Some of the posts in this thread have shown that there are in fact Christian women who dress lewdly, even to church. This website has also not approved my comments.

The Modesty Myth

Ever since I was old enough to be aware of clothing styles, I have heard Christians make an issue of modesty. Modesty, as they used the word, had to do with how a person was dressed, if enough of…

graceunderpressureministries.com

This next one is written by a man. His argument is that staring and thinking/fantasizing is not "lusting", and that unless the man is actively making plans to take the woman he is doing nothing wrong. (In a different article he makes the claim that men plesuring themselves is not a sin). He also claims the woman is innocent for dressing provocatively, but would be guilty if she were outwardly flirting.

Is It Wrong For Women To Dress In Sexually Arousing Ways?

95 percent of Christians you asked this question to would say “Yes”. But the answer Biblically speaking might surprise you. All of us enter adulthood with a set of presuppositions based…

biblicalsexology.com

 

[Max Roscoe]

"you have a lot of women who are desperate for money"

In the west, this might only apply to 0.1% of women or maybe even less considering all the resources there are to help women (and men to a lesser extent).

Unless a woman has severe mental problems, she can likely find a job that will give her 20+ a week of income. There is always a demand for babysitting and cleaning if she lacks education. If she has severe mental problems, she can likely get free government money.

For 99% of history, women had no need for money of their own; their father, and then their husband, was expected to provide for them.
Worked perfectly until some Judeo-Christians decided it was repressive if women weren't in cubicles for 40 hours a week.

 

[messaggera]

This first one appears to be one of the most popular ones (the search algorithm pops it right up when searching keywords Christian modesty).

This first woman, it seems, all she talks about is sex; as if she is qualified to discuss sex to other Christians.
Would like to know how she draws the conclusion of what should be the frequency of sex in a marriage.

Sheila Wray Gregoire is a Charlatan Christian or another term Counterfeit Christian.

This next one is written by a man. His argument is that staring and thinking/fantasizing is not "lusting", and that unless the man is actively making plans to take the woman he is doing nothing wrong. (In a different article he makes the claim that men pleasuring themselves is not a sin). He also claims the woman is innocent for dressing provocatively, but would be guilty if she were outwardly flirting.

Another Charlatan Christian / Counterfeit Christian. This one is worse than the first one.

A lazy search: Psychology today, a representation of that area of "medicine, encourages sexual fantasies as "normal."
This is a weird article to read, especially the Jewish lady. But interesting as it relates to this man's false teaching about the pleasure sin. Caution.

 

[No-Designation Man]

Apparently there is an old earth saying: "Actions speak louder than words".

If you're letting parts of yourself flop out, then your actions are definitely harassment more than if someone comments on the parts that you're deliberately advertising in said flop-outs.

 

[infowarrior1]

Yes.
Just clarifying that in no way am I endorsing the viewpoints on these links, or agreeing with their positions.


This first one appears to be one of the most popular ones (the search algorithm pops it right up when searching keywords Christian modesty).


The author quotes Mat5:28 (But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart) while leaving out the words "with her" to make the argument that Jesus only blames the men. Very dishonest. If she believed her other arguments were solid why would she be misquoting the verse? Main argument is that focus on modesty is a stumbling block to women. Even though there are dissenting comments allowed, she did not approve my respectfully worded comment pointing this out.

'Don't Be a Stumbling Block' Is a Really Bad Modesty Message

Is "don't be a stumbling block" a good way to talk about modesty?A closer look at the "stumbling block" passages, and what they really say about modesty.

tolovehonorandvacuum.com

This other woman's argument seems to be that there's more to modesty than how we are dressed. Ok, true, but that doesn't mean immodest dress is not a stumbling block, as the men have been posting.

Modesty Misunderstood

I discussed the ongoing misuse and abuse of the concept of modesty in a previous post called The Modesty Myth. Although I touched on many of the same points, this article from Desiring God explains…

graceunderpressureministries.com

In this other post, she says that it doesn't matter what women wear, as long as they're not dressed lewdly, and she doesn't know any Christians who dress that way. Some of the posts in this thread have shown that there are in fact Christian women who dress lewdly, even to church. This website has also not approved my comments.

The Modesty Myth

Ever since I was old enough to be aware of clothing styles, I have heard Christians make an issue of modesty. Modesty, as they used the word, had to do with how a person was dressed, if enough of…

graceunderpressureministries.com

This next one is written by a man. His argument is that staring and thinking/fantasizing is not "lusting", and that unless the man is actively making plans to take the woman he is doing nothing wrong. (In a different article he makes the claim that men plesuring themselves is not a sin). He also claims the woman is innocent for dressing provocatively, but would be guilty if she were outwardly flirting.

Is It Wrong For Women To Dress In Sexually Arousing Ways?

95 percent of Christians you asked this question to would say “Yes”. But the answer Biblically speaking might surprise you. All of us enter adulthood with a set of presuppositions based…

biblicalsexology.com

Sheila Gregoire is a wolf in sheeps clothing:

Sheila Gregoire – Page 8 – Dalrock

Posts about Sheila Gregoire written by Dalrock

dalrock.wordpress.com

Dalrock was onto her in 2011. And she was definitely subverting sex roles like the feminist she actually is for much more than a decade.

Its no coincidence that search results promote her so incessantly. Since she is a minion of Satan.

 

[Starlight]

For 99% of history, women had no need for money of their own; their father, and then their husband, was expected to provide for them.
Worked perfectly until some Judeo-Christians decided it was repressive if women weren't in cubicles for 40 hours a week.

If this is true then how can prostitution be “the oldest profession”?

 

[infowarrior1]

If that was true then how can prostitution be “the oldest profession”?

It was Christianity starting with Ancient Israel through which God began the move to crack down on Prostitution and confining Sexuality into the bounds of Wedlock completely as it was in the beginning. Starting with "Sacred Prostitution" which is an inversion of the true "Sacred Sex" of Marriage. Sacrilege disguised as Holy.

What is Holy is set apart from common use. What is profane isn't. That was the constant theme of the Old Testament.

What is meant to be in the context of loving relationship was turned into a loveless economic exchange and made not that different from a mere bodily function.

Of course frigidity can undermine Holy Wedlock from within by making prostitution seem a more attractive alternative. A body denied healthy food for long enough would be willing to ingest rotten food.

 

[Pray_Everyday]

This first woman, it seems, all she talks about is sex; as if she is qualified to discuss sex to other Christians.
Would like to know how she draws the conclusion of what should be the frequency of sex in a marriage.

Sheila Wray Gregoire is a Charlatan Christian or another term Counterfeit Christian.

I agree.
And as Infowarrior1 pointed out, turns out she's a feminist.

Another Charlatan Christian / Counterfeit Christian. This one is worse than the first one.

A lazy search: Psychology today, a representation of that area of "medicine, encourages sexual fantasies as "normal."
This is a weird article to read, especially the Jewish lady. But interesting as it relates to this man's false teaching about the pleasure sin. Caution.

Psychology is truly wicked - they appear to promote what is evil (deviancy, deception, degeneracy), and put down what is good (purity, temperance, faithfulness).

Isa5:20. Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil

Sheila Gregoire is a wolf in sheeps clothing:

Sheila Gregoire – Page 8 – Dalrock

Posts about Sheila Gregoire written by Dalrock

dalrock.wordpress.com

Dalrock was onto her in 2011. And she was definitely subverting sex roles like the feminist she actually is for much more than a decade.

Its no coincidence that search results promote her so incessantly. Since she is a minion of Satan.

Thank you for the link, that was a wealth of information.

He actually has a post on the very post by her that I had linked. It does a great job of describing her errors in the twisting of scripture.

Modesty standards are sinful.

Complementarianism is distinguished from egalitarianism for the most part not by the feminist conclusions they draw, but by the method they use to get there. Both have adopted all (egalitarian) or…

dalrock.wordpress.com

She is in fact a feminist, who dislikes the label feminist because it's "become tainted politically" (or is it because if she doesn't label herself one she can be more sneaky at being subversive?), and has a degree in women's studies!

Will the real Sheila Gregoire Please Stand Up?

I’ve always assumed Sheila Gregoire was a naive, sheltered housewife who didn’t really understand that our society and the church is in the final throes of a massive culture war. Almos…

dalrock.wordpress.com

One more link, this one was relevant to the original topic as it discusses immodest dress and the desire of women to seek attention.

Meet the new Yiayia. Her name is Sheila.

From Faith Moore at PJ Media: A California school district recently announced that they are doing away with their dress code. Alameda Unified School District says that students may now wear whateve…

dalrock.wordpress.com

 

[Aboulia]

If this is true then how can prostitution be “the oldest profession”?

What do you think witchcraft is? It's women playing on the desires of men to entice things out from them. In the ancient world, many were wealthy and had admirers. The modern equivalent I think, would be one who marries a rich guy (like a celebrity, for example), then uses the law to extract resources. In that sense it's a very old profession.

There's many saints who elevated themselves out of this behaviour. but the story of St Pelagia the Penitent is my favourite.

(continued) adornment of her body surpasseth all my labors on behalf of my wretched soul! She taketh great care to beautify herself, that she might satisfy her mortal admirers, but I make no effort to please Thee, my God, and remain indolent and heedless. How can I dare to face Thee? With what words shall I stand before Thy holy altar and offer not the fair soul Thou askest of me. The woman, in her vanity, hath set her purpose to present herself as pleasing to mortal men and hath accomplished that which she resolved to do, but sloth hath made of me a liar. Naked am I, for I have not kept Thy commandments, but I trust not in my works, and through Thy compassion do I hope to be saved.

 

[Max Roscoe]

Edward Dutton has a book out about how witches were not some imagined group of sorcerers but really just Satanic feminists.

He's been interviewed several times, probably can find on odysee, and I know he was on Tim Kelly's Our Interesting Times where they had an excellent discussion about it.

The archetype of the "witch" is burnt deep into the European psyche, recurring again and again in folklore and fairytales. But is she merely the stuff of fantasy? Roald Dahl warned that witches don't always don black hats and ride on broom sticks. They "dress in ordinary clothes, and look very much like ordinary women. . . . That is why they are so hard to catch."

In Witches, Feminism and the Fall of the West, Edward Dutton examines the history of witches and witch-hunting in light of evolutionary psychology. Throughout the centuries, witches were ostracized across Europe and often condemned and executed for sorcery and harming children. They generally adhered to a type: witches were low-status, anti-social, and childless, and their very presence was viewed as poisonous to the community. Dutton demonstrates that witches did, in their way, represent a maladaptive mentality and behavior, which undermined Europe's patriarchal system. When times got tough-that is, when Europe got poorer or colder-the witches were persecuted with a vengeance.

Today, the evolutionary situation has been turned on its head. The intense selection pressures of the past have been overcome by the Industrial Revolution and its technological marvels. Modern witches survive and thrive in the postmodern West, still possessed by the motivations and dispositions of their sisters of yore. "Sorcery" (nihilism and self-hatred) is no longer taboo but has become a high-status ideology. Roald Dahl was all-too correct. Witches do exist, and they mean to do us harm.

https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/our-interesting-times-1380692/episodes/edward-dutton-on-witches-femin-105031208

 

[Starlight]

What do you think witchcraft is? It's women playing on the desires of men to entice things out from them. In the ancient world, many were wealthy and had admirers. The modern equivalent I think, would be one who marries a rich guy (like a celebrity, for example), then uses the law to extract resources. In that sense it's a very old profession.

There's many saints who elevated themselves out of this behaviour. but the story of St Pelagia the Penitent is my favourite.
View attachment 42141
(continued) adornment of her body surpasseth all my labors on behalf of my wretched soul! She taketh great care to beautify herself, that she might satisfy her mortal admirers, but I make no effort to please Thee, my God, and remain indolent and heedless. How can I dare to face Thee? With what words shall I stand before Thy holy altar and offer not the fair soul Thou askest of me. The woman, in her vanity, hath set her purpose to present herself as pleasing to mortal men and hath accomplished that which she resolved to do, but sloth hath made of me a liar. Naked am I, for I have not kept Thy commandments, but I trust not in my works, and through Thy compassion do I hope to be saved.

Well, I don’t think that is what “witchcraft” technically is but I don’t disagree with the rest of what you wrote. The point I was trying to make was that if women were so well taken care of by the men around them then why would prostitution exist if they didn’t need money? It’s like saying beggars panhandle because they like it not because they need money. Women were expected to be “taken care of” but that clearly was not always the case. That system never “worked perfectly” as Max Roscoe suggested.

Interestingly, St John Chrysostom (ironically St Augustine’s contemporary) more than a few times preached against prostitution. He noted that the prostitutes (harlots) would dress in an alluring way to entice men and then the wives of the men in the congregation would try to mimic how the prostitutes were dressing to keep their husband’s eyes from wandering…

The more things change, the more they stay the same…

 

[Ah_Tibor]

The point I was trying to make was that if women were so well taken care of by the men around them then why would prostitution exist if they didn’t need money? It’s like saying beggars panhandle because they like it not because they need money. Women were expected to be “taken care of” but that clearly was not always the case. That system never “worked perfectly” as Max Roscoe suggested.

Higher class/genteel women were "taken care of," peasants/serfs became the working class and these women always worked. Prostitution was a last ditch effort in many cases.

Edit: reading a bio of Dostoyevsky right now written by his daughter, thought this quote might fit here

"At this time it was usual to bring up girls under the superintendence of their parents. The instruction given to them was not very extensive: French, German, a little piano playing and dancing, fancy needlework. Only the daughters of the poor worked. The girls of noble families were destined for marriage."

 

[Solitarius]

The point I was trying to make was that if women were so well taken care of by the men around them then why would prostitution exist if they didn’t need money?

Why do some men rob banks or burgle houses? Because they want more money than they can get honestly of course; it's the same with these worthless vile whores for the most part. A just society would round them up & put them in labour camps so that some good use could be got out of them.

 

[infowarrior1]

Why do some men rob banks or burgle houses? Because they want more money than they can get honestly of course; it's the same with these worthless vile whores for the most part. A just society would round them up & put them in labour camps so that some good use could be got out of them.

Or learn from the example of Saint Vitalis:

St Vitalis: The Monk who visited whorehouses

biography of St. Vitalis of Gaza unconventional monk who visited prostitutes in Alexandria and worked for their redemption

greekamericangirl.com

There is a way to reduce the danger to prostitutes whilst making it easy to exit the lifestyle. As much as very high barriers to entry.

At the very least Godly Christian couples who are infertile should get first priority for orphans. Lest they fall into this by nefarious actors. CPS as it now stands is a den of predators.