Is it a red flag if a woman has been sexually abused?

jarlo

Woodpecker
Orthodox
We were LDR. Met on a Facebook Orthodox group. Had a 6 Facetimes or so together before we met up for the first time. I made a mistake and got sexually intimate with her too early. We had been flirting prior to meeting for the first time and I went too far. I told her that I wanted to move the boundary back to no clothes off. But, she said that she had trauma in her past before we met for the first time we met (rape) and I didn’t take that into account before the first visit. I hadn’t thought through my boundaries.
The second meetup we had I moved the boundaries to everything above the belt because I didn’t want to trigger any trauma responses after going too far with her sexually on the first visit. I enjoyed her family and we all had an amazing time. We played games together and everything. I even went golfing with her brother. He was a cool guy too.
For the third visit she visited me. She got an AirBnb because my roommate didn’t want a girl staying at the place. So then one night when she was in town, we were being intimate and she had a trauma response. I know I went too far sexually and it ruined everything... but: she had the response and I left her alone at night when she had that response because I wanted to be consistent and not changing my boundaries all the time... I left her when she had her trauma response and then she avoided me emotionally and physically for about two days. Then I got anxious and tried to move the boundaries back to everything we did on the first trip because I was scared of losing her.

she said she felt disconnected and unsafe in the relationship and then broke up with me a week later after she had met my family and everything.

we were talking about marriage and everything. She said she wanted to get married to me as well.

I know the relationship ended because I entered the sexual relationship even though I knew that she had trauma in her past... but, I know my lessons for the future

It really doesn't sound like the problem is the girl's trauma history, but your inability to deal with your lust. If you're currently unable to control yourself sufficiently that on your first date you're trying to sleep with a girl, you'll certainly scare off any girl worth marrying. I don't have enough information to evaluate the girl, but what probably happened to some extent is that she liked you, but was torn on whether you just wanted her for sex, and eventually she broke it off because she decided it was too likely you just wanted sex from her. You put up a front towards her of having traditional values and being Orthodox, but your actions didn't match your talk.

You should start by confessing this to your spiritual father, following his advice and adhering to any penance he gives you. I also suggest taking 3-6 months off dating and thinking through what marriage is, what the role of sex is, why pornography/fornication/masturbation are immoral, and how you plan to raise your kids. If you're still engaged in pornography/masturbation, which seems likely given how you're describing your self control with this girl, I would work on giving those up before dating again.

If you don't have sexual control, you're going to make decisions regarding relationships/marriage purely based on how quickly/whether a girl will sleep with you, and so the only type of girl you'll be able to have stick around are those who will sleep with you quickly, and whose conscience isn't bothered by sleeping with you. In other words, if you're looking for girls within Orthodox circles, the only women who will be interested in you are those who are hypocrites.

If you decide to work on your lust and sexual impulses, the Orthodox church has many psalms and prayers from which you can draw strength, saints from whom you can draw inspiration, and the sacrament of confession with which you can make yourself clean in the eyes of God.

Good luck brother!
 

SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
It really doesn't sound like the problem is the girl's trauma history, but your inability to deal with your lust. If you're currently unable to control yourself sufficiently that on your first date you're trying to sleep with a girl, you'll certainly scare off any girl worth marrying. I don't have enough information to evaluate the girl, but what probably happened to some extent is that she liked you, but was torn on whether you just wanted her for sex, and eventually she broke it off because she decided it was too likely you just wanted sex from her. You put up a front towards her of having traditional values and being Orthodox, but your actions didn't match your talk.

You should start by confessing this to your spiritual father, following his advice and adhering to any penance he gives you. I also suggest taking 3-6 months off dating and thinking through what marriage is, what the role of sex is, why pornography/fornication/masturbation are immoral, and how you plan to raise your kids. If you're still engaged in pornography/masturbation, which seems likely given how you're describing your self control with this girl, I would work on giving those up before dating again.

If you don't have sexual control, you're going to make decisions regarding relationships/marriage purely based on how quickly/whether a girl will sleep with you, and so the only type of girl you'll be able to have stick around are those who will sleep with you quickly, and whose conscience isn't bothered by sleeping with you. In other words, if you're looking for girls within Orthodox circles, the only women who will be interested in you are those who are hypocrites.

If you decide to work on your lust and sexual impulses, the Orthodox church has many psalms and prayers from whom you can draw strength, saints from whom you can draw inspiration, and the sacrament of confession with which you can make yourself clean in the eyes of God.

Good luck brother!
I have confessed it multiple times throughout the relationship. I do struggle with lust. I don’t think I was aware how much I didn’t struggle with it. I thought I’d be fine before we met in person. But, I probably was too prideful to think I could fall into doing those actions. I didn’t struggle with pornography before meeting her in person (Glory to God), but that’s definitely one thing I learned from all of this... that I can always fall into sin if I’m not vigilant and in prayer and examine myself prior to a potential context it could happen.

The texting and the facetimes prior were flirtatious. We had like 6 FaceTime dates prior to meeting in person. So, that’s why I was influenced and I did fall into temptation and ultimately fell. She was okay with going to everything but penetrative sex. I wanted to keep clothes on and stay above the neck regarding intimacy (that being, after I made my mistake on the first trip going below the belt).

I also left her in her trauma instead of staying and attuning to her. Then I lose frame/humility by placating (saying I’d be willing to move my boundary back to how it was on the first trip if that was what she wanted/needed from me to resolve the distance/conflict... it was unbearable) and being anxious. I got needy and told her I feared she was going to leave me and didn’t love me after she started to emotionally and physically distanced from me after I didn’t stay with her in the truama (from my perception that was the problem that broke us up).

Not trying to self-justify. Just trying to find clarity. It’s hard to go through the pain of a mistake you see so clearly in retrospect. It’s made me thing about God’s Providence and all that and it’s hard to endure.
 
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I would say, as has already been said here, that the woman who has been sexually abused must get competent professional counseling. I have been in several relationships with such women, and that is key. Also, keep in mind that if you marry her, and she has not gotten serious professional help that worked, you will be dealing with a woman with major sexual problems and hang-ups. Sexual frigidity at one end, and sexual promiscuity and cheating on the other, may plague the relationship if the problem is not properly addressed.

I have hated the experience of in the past being at a dinner gathering, sitting across from a father who I knew had sexually molested his own daughter, who I was dating at the time. It was hard to fight the urge to simply jump over the table and throttle him with every ounce of strength I possess.

I'd like to think that there is an extra unpleasant section of Hell for men who do such things to girls, and especially their own daughters...
 
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SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
I would say, as has already said here, that the woman who has been sexually abused must get competent professional counseling. I have been in several relationships with such women, and that is key. Also, keep in mind that if you marry her, and she has not gotten serious professional help that worked, you will be dealing with a woman with major sexual problems and hang-ups. Sexual frigidity at one end, and sexual promiscuity and cheating on the other, may plague the relationship if the problem is not properly addressed.

I have hated the experience of in the past being at a dinner gathering, sitting across from a father who I knew had sexually molested his own daughter, who I was dating at the time. It was hard to fight the urge to simply jump over the table and throttle him with every ounce of strength I possess.

I'd like to think that there is an extra unpleasant section of Hell for men who do such things to girls, and especially their own daughters...
I know. It makes me so angry, but also so sad... ultimately a compassion that goes beyond words. Anger at the other people who did the crime, and unutterably sad for the victim.

She had sent gotten any help, nor did she want it before marriage (at least that’s why it sounded like she said/meant). She was on the side of wanting sexual intimacy a lot (not the frigidity side). But, she valued loyalty from what she told me and I really did trust her not to cheat (especially LDR). I had no hang ups there. I’m confident she was totally loyal and would continue to be so into the future. Then again... I can’t see the future, so maybe that’s my rose-colored glasses speaking there.

Essentially she said she was scared to do therapy because of the first time she had it (right after the event happened) for the session‘s required to get what was needed post-rape... but, she didn’t continue after that.

Since we had been talking about marriage (yes, I moved way too fast in the relationship, I know; 4-5 months of dating before I brought the marriage thing up - yes she said she wanted to marry me), I thought I’d ask her to come to counseling with me. She said she wasn’t ready to get counseling with me or at all... then she broke up with me a few days later over FaceTime.
 
I agree 100%. But, it seems that the caveat you are saying is a red flag is that they won’t get help/therapy for their trauma.

Would you consider it a red flag if they weren’t willing to get therapy/help for the trauma and work through it in that way (since the significant other can’t do that for them)?
Yes. If she is not willing to address it and seek help (despite the future husband's supportive attitude) - it a real red flag.
If she is willing to seek help for the trauma and she appears to be a good women (and doesn't display any of the obvious and not-so-obvious warning signs)- she deserves your support. (And I think this is a typical scenario when a man can exercise some genuine Christian compassion).
However, be aware: if she starts any therapeutic work -she has to go all the way. Starting any therapeutic work is only worthy, if in the final discharge letter the therapist would acknowledge at least some improvement as the result of the therapy. (Withdrawal from therapeutic work before it concludes - can hunt her and her family later in the future). The good news, is however, there is real and effective (non-pharmaceutical) help available for most trauma victims. (if you have time,read - Bessel van der Kolk: "The Body Keeps the Score")
 

SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
How soon into knowing you did she tell you about the rape?

Aloha!
Before we met in person - 4-5 FaceTime’s in. She said that she thought it was important to let me know if we were going to meet in person. Then, when we met in person, there was a trauma response triggered by me going too far sexually (yes, my mistake, I should have been more careful and not gone as far as I did...) so she explained in detail what happened to me then...
 
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SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
Yes. If she is not willing to address it and seek help (despite the future husband's supportive attitude) - it a real red flag.
If she is willing to seek help for the trauma and she appears to be a good women (and doesn't display any of the obvious and not-so-obvious warning signs)- she deserves your support. (And I think this is a typical scenario when a man can exercise some genuine Christian compassion).
However, be aware: if she starts any therapeutic work -she has to go all the way. Starting any therapeutic work is only worthy, if in the final discharge letter the therapist would acknowledge at least some improvement as the result of the therapy. (Withdrawal from therapeutic work before it concludes - can hunt her and her family later in the future). The good news, is however, there is real and effective (non-pharmaceutical) help available for most trauma victims. (if you have time,read - Bessel van der Kolk: "The Body Keeps the Score")
She said she’d only be willing to do it with her husband (aka, it seems after marriage considering her response to me when I asked her to come with me a couple times).

Yeah, I was totally willing and it was something she said she wasn’t willing to do because “she wasn’t ready for it.” I know it is scary to confront one’s trauma... and I sympathize with that and understand... but, that’s what I got from her so I wanted to respect her freedom in love.

Yeah, she never told me about the “discharge letter.” All she said is she did as much therapy that was needed to get the birth control, etc. that was needed post-rape and then she didn’t go to therapy anymore after that because she didn’t want to talk about it anymore. Given what she’s still experiencing... nightmares, trauma responses, etc.

That’s a great book. I’ve read a couple chapters on it actually. Thanks!
 

2Beta

Chicken
If a woman had been sexually abused when they were younger (rape) and they don’t want to work through it in therapy, is this a red flag?

They had trouble talking about emotions and being emotionally intimate even though we could joke around together and that seemed like emotional intimacy to me in retrospect...

She broke up with me a month ago and I’m having a hard time processing things. No idea why I’m still infatuated with her (in limerence) and thinking I messed everything up. This question is mainly to figure out if I’m being irrational in not considering this red flag (if it is one) a major dealbreaker long term (if it even worked out since she broke up with me and everything anyways).

She also wanted traditional marriage roles, was of the same faith tradition as I am, etc. - but, the unresolved trauma broke us up, I think due to her projecting her trauma response onto me when was was trying to repair the relationship. Her having these values (which are so hard to find in America) is making it hard for me to move, on on top of the infatuation I still feel. We were talking about marriage and everything and we were both on board it seemed like...
Most on this forum are going to tell you most any modern woman is broken and not worth dating. I don’t necessarilly disagree, but most guys on this forum aren’t willing to go full black pill or become Orthodox Christians... for better or worse. If a woman makes you happy, I say roll with it. Unless you are a successful Chad, you will never find any woman this forum would deem pure enough anyhow. Just know what you are getting into and be mentally prepared for the worst. This forum is immensely valuable for the contrarian viewpoints, but its also a bubble in itself, and while I applaud those that choose to radically shape their lives around red pill Christianity, I don’t blame those who just want to make things work in the status quo. I think the world is better off having men be with these women, rather than abandon them altogether. The latter would just lead to more feminism and ensuing socialism.
 

Papist

Robin
Yes, huge red flag. If she had told me that before starting a relationship, I would have immediately nexted her. Very likely she is incapable of truly having an emotional bond with anyone so her future relationships aren't going to be any better and she's certainly not anyone I'd want to be the mother of my potential children. She actually did you a favor. Hopefully you've learned a lesson from this experience. You can always work on yourself but you can't change her. Don't respond to her if she comes around.

You are aware this is a Christian forum, right?
 

SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
Most on this forum are going to tell you most any modern woman is broken and not worth dating. I don’t necessarilly disagree, but most guys on this forum aren’t willing to go full black pill or become Orthodox Christians... for better or worse. If a woman makes you happy, I say roll with it. Unless you are a successful Chad, you will never find any woman this forum would deem pure enough anyhow. Just know what you are getting into and be mentally prepared for the worst. This forum is immensely valuable for the contrarian viewpoints, but its also a bubble in itself, and while I applaud those that choose to radically shape their lives around red pill Christianity, I don’t blame those who just want to make things work in the status quo. I think the world is better off having men be with these women, rather than abandon them altogether. The latter would just lead to more feminism and ensuing socialism.
I agree with you. But, also, I think what I’m trying to get at here is finding clarity as to what could have been a red flag that I didn’t know for the future. Since she broke up with me, it was ultimately because I wasn’t being a man as I should have been. I own that and am trying to learn for the future and not despair over the distortion that this was my last chance at finding someone at 25 (oneitis speaking). Anyone is picking another person with a set of problems. You’re right, being aware of what you are getting yourself into is ideal. But, commitment and grit are what get you through after that choice of love.
 

2Beta

Chicken
I agree with you. But, also, I think what I’m trying to get at here is finding clarity as to what could have been a red flag that I didn’t know for the future. Since she broke up with me, it was ultimately because I wasn’t being a man as I should have been. I own that and am trying to learn for the future and not despair over the distortion that this was my last chance at finding someone at 25 (oneitis speaking). Anyone is picking another person with a set of problems. You’re right, being aware of what you are getting yourself into is ideal. But, commitment and grit are what get you through after that choice of love.
You remind me a bit of myself bu the way you speak of this situation. I was incredibly weak and blue pilled in my 20s, but a decent enough looking guy to at least garner dates and flirtation. I have so many failures and false starts with women, I could, and may, write a book on it. The ugly truth was that the only women that stayed with me past a few dates were those as equally or more broken than me in their own way. Any decent woman will sniff out personality weaknesses within several encounters with you. What does that mean in terms of advice for you? I’m not sure, but if you feel like you are trying to “save” someone, it’s likely such behavior will be interpreted as weakness. Pre wall women with self esteem issues will generally view such attempts as proof your value is even lower than theirs. I wouldn’t be surprised if your acceptance of this issue was actually a subconscious turn off of sorts for her. Deep down she may have been more excited to “prove” herself to a man who deemed himself above her.
 
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SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
You remind me a bit of myself bu the way you speak of this situation. I was incredibly weak and blue pilled in my 20s, but a decent enough looking guy to at least garner dates and flirtation. I have so many failures and false starts with women, I could, and may, write a book on it. The ugly truth was that the only women that stayed with me past a few dates were those as equally or more broken than me in their own way. Any decent woman will sniff out personality weaknesses within several encounters with you. What does that mean in terms of advice for you? I’m not sure, but if you feel like you are trying to “save” someone, it’s likely such behavior will be interpreted as weakness. Pre wall women with self esteem issues will generally view such attempts as proof your value is even lower than theirs. I wouldn’t be surprised if your acceptance of this issue was actually a subconscious turn off of sorts for her. Deep down she may have been more excited to “prove” herself to a man who deemed himself above her.
Godspeed with that book. Yeah, I mean, one’s emotional maturity attracts a similar emotional maturity (my hypothesis). I never felt like I was trying to save her since I always respected her volition (even though I moved the boundaries around a lot in the sexual realm near the end from anxiety of her abandoning me). I know I need to deal with that fear of abaondonment that comes from my anxious attachment (attachment styles/emotional maturity marker) so as to become more secure in the Lord.

For example, I was being playful and random that she never saw that certain side of me before on the FaceTime’s and was “trying to figure out how to process this new part of me because she wasn’t used to it.” But, she said that I had lost my humor and she felt disconnected and unsafe in the relationship when she broke up with me. It was really vague and I felt she projected her trauma response onto me. This was on the last trip in person prior to her breaking up with me over FaceTime a week or two later (like a whiplash).

Your hypothesis may be right, but it would surprise me if it was right since she told me she loved me first, wanted to marry me when I asked her if she’d want to, etc. etc... but, she did have this competitive personality and said to me once that she had “image problems.” I have compassion on her, but I also desire to have clarity myself. Who knows if I’ll get it though.

One thing that does come to mind though is that before the last trip, I had never cried in front of her. But, on the last trip, I did because of the immense anxiety that was triggered after the trauma response she had and realizing I had made the mistake of leaving her. I was a mess after that event and I think that’s when I lost my frame/security. I got needy in trying to resolve the problem quickly instead of giving her space to process things and keeping my peace and humor through it with prayer. Then again... the emotional and physical distance and the change in her persona after the trauma response felt like it was interacting with a whole new person... like the joy and playfulness in the relationship just died *snap* like that.

I’m going on and on though here... it was a very confusing end. I definitely need to keep my composure next time I make a mistake instead of overreacting internally to the anxiety I’m enduring.
 

Papaya

Peacock
Gold Member
OP...all due respect but have you ever been diagnosed on the spectrum? You come across as very neurotic and of a frail constitution. I dont mean to be mean but perhaps the red flags you should be paying attention to are in the mirror
 

2Beta

Chicken
You sound exactly like me in my 20s. A stream of constant cross examination, dissecting every move, searching for where you went wrong. You need to get to the point where none of that matters. You need to be confident in your life and decisions to accept that any women that wants to nit pick isn’t worth your time, because you can do better. Focus on self improvement, building financial stability and skillsets to give you the confidence to command your own life, rather than trying to find some magic formula to make females validate you. That was the mistake I made (and I’m definitely still a work in progress). I constantly looked for magic words and concepts and behaviors to ape, rather than building myself up from the ground up. Avoid soy affirming environments and seek out masculine endeavors. I don’t discount self reflection and the existence of depression and such. But in my experience, once you gain some financial independence, confidence, and responsibility in life, alot of the beta male habits of self pity and agreeability tend to reveal themselves for the destructive forces they are. The mere fact that you are replaying your moves in your head this way IS why she left you. She sensed your weakness and over-thinking ways. This is why PUA was ultimately a dead end. You can spend years perfecting an act to get women merely into bed, but its virtually impossible to maintian such a charade beyond a few a dates, as women will sniff out weakness from the deepest parts of your brain over a long enough period.
 
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SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
OP...all due respect but have you ever been diagnosed on the spectrum? You come across as very neurotic and of a frail constitution. I dont mean to be mean but perhaps the red flags you should be paying attention to are in the mirror
Maybe I am. I haven't gotten a diagnosis. I do tend to be neurotic though, which is a fair critique based on what I have written in all of these posts. Which red flags do you think that I should be paying attention to from your perspective? I want to use this experience as one of learning rather than a constant bemoaning of my fate or self-pity.
 

SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
You sound exactly like me in my 20s. A stream of constant cross examination, dissecting every move, searching for where you went wrong. You need to get to the point where none of that matters. You need to be confident in your life and decisions to accept that any women that wants to nit pick isn’t worth your time, because you can do better. Focus on self improvement, building financial stability and skillsets to give you the confidence to command your own life, rather than trying to find some magic formula to make females validate you. That was the mistake I made (and I’m definitely still a work in progress). I constantly looked for magic words and concepts and behaviors to ape, rather than building myself up from the ground up. Avoid soy affirming environments and seek out masculine endeavors. I don’t discount self reflection and the existence of depression and such. But in my experience, once you gain some financial independence, confidence, and responsibility in life, alot of the beta male habits of self pity and agreeability tend to reveal themselves for the destructive forces they are. The mere fact that you are replaying your moves in your head this way IS why she left you. She sensed your weakness and over-thinking ways. This is why PUA was ultimately a dead end. You can spend years perfecting an act to get women merely into bed, but its virtually impossible to maintian such a charade beyond a few a dates, as women will sniff out weakness from the deepest parts of your brain over a long enough period.
This is really helpful, thanks. I do think that I need to conquer this anxiety (weakness and overthinking ways) and just strive to become self-reliant while at the same time being connected with others that are good influences. It'll be easier to gain more financial independence once I graduate grad school. The confidence and responsibility is weirdly something I thought I had prior to this relationship, but the truth seems to have come out naturally and I was deceiving myself that I didn't still have that self-pity and agreeability at the core still.

It’s weird because it’s like I believed that I was being authentic as we kept doing FaceTime’s (at least 12+) and meeting in person (3 times and we met each other’s families). But, it looks like I was blind to the work I still need to do to become more authentically myself. I think I just need to work on healing the weakness and overthinking for now, in therapy, myself. I can at least be thankful that this experience brought these parts to the surface so I can decide to do things differently in the future.

Since you seem to relate with my struggle... as a 25-year-old (almost 26), what would you say helped you on this process of growth the most when you were my age so as to not worry about women/marriage/etc. and focusing on oneself and your growth?
I guess I sometimes despair that I’m too old to find a good/attractive wife (weakness and overthinking here), so I’m trying to cultivate a mindset of strength rather than fatalism and despair. I think I do this to myself and Papaya may be right that I’m the one with the red flags and not her.
 
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