Is it ethical and/or wise to lie to become vaccine compliant?

El Draque

Kingfisher
Orthodox
I have a friend who has been offered the opportunity to have his wife and him entered into the govt database as vaccinated, for a nominal fee. Instinctively this seems a no brainer, however it does pose a few questions.

Firstly it is bearing false witness. It also means that he would then have to relinquish his position on it all, and for appearances, state that hes been injected. This might seem like a small price, but ultimately its untrue and means he will have to 'live the lie'.

Secondly it could potentially be uncovered down the line. The doctor who is providing this service is in a city on other side country. No attendance is necessary, but it would potentially look strange that someone residing in capital city would opt to get vaxxd in a provincial town 800kms away.

Ultimately it is fraud, and as he is not native there, it may affect long term residence if uncovered.

Its sad that people find themselves having to break laws and take risks, but it seems that is the choices he and others are left with.
 

kel

Ostrich
I think it's very wise within reason, your security concerns are valid and need to be weighed, I don't know the whole circumstance. I'm looking at doing something similar and in general I think people should look into "getting vaxxed" in a foreign country and then putting it in your local system. You were there for work.

Life is a series of risks and you've broken several laws since you woke up without trying or even realizing it. Calculate risk and weigh the value of being obedient versus being able to operate without your hands tied behind your back.
 

Lawrence87

Woodpecker
Orthodox
Personally I think it is wrong to forge evidence of having been vaccinated. It's basically accepting the tyranny of it, and playing along with it albeit decietfully. I think we are called to resist, no matter the cost. That is not going to be easy, but there are more of us than you would think. Lying to avoid the consequences of not being vaccinated is not resistance, it is bowing to the system, and legitimizing it, even if you are 'getting away with it'
 

DanielH

Ostrich
Orthodox
For me the answer is I would never do such a thing unless it was necessary to get my family out of near certain imprisonment/death, something along those lines. I assume that doesn't apply to your friend. I know someone who did fabricate a credential, and they actually tore up their fake credential after hearing my reasoning for why I thought it was wrong, which you stated in the OP. For that person, it may make employment difficult in the future and may result in persecution, but it will result in treasure in heaven as far as I'm concerned regarding this person.
 
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El Draque

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Personally I think it is wrong to forge evidence of having been vaccinated. It's basically accepting the tyranny of it, and playing along with it albeit decietfully. I think we are called to resist, no matter the cost. That is not going to be easy, but there are more of us than you would think. Lying to avoid the consequences of not being vaccinated is not resistance, it is bowing to the system, and legitimizing it, even if you are 'getting away with it'

This is my reseravation, which i told him. It's kowtowing, even in an abstracted way.

However there does come a time where one has to to be pragmatic, and do what's necessary to protect one's family.

It's easy to let pride creep up, in these sort of stances. At a certain point, if it becomes self defeating, we have to be clear we're not doing things like this out of some sort of vanity.
 

Lawrence87

Woodpecker
Orthodox
This is my reseravation, which i told him. It's kowtowing, even in an abstracted way.

However there does come a time where one has to to be pragmatic, and do what's necessary to protect one's family.

It's easy to let pride creep up, in these sort of stances. At a certain point, if it becomes self defeating, we have to be clear we're not doing things like this out of some sort of vanity.

I'd say if it comes to the point of families being threatened and so forth, then it might be time to reassess, as things stand currently I don't think there is any reason to forge evidence of vaccination. I don't think it will get to that point though personally. As St. Paisios said, those who don't get it will be protected...
 

rainy

Kingfisher
I would say generally no, I don't think it's ethically right.

However I could see situations when factoring in needing to provide for your family that it might be necessary.

I don't know where one draws the line. What about if/when they come after your kids? It ain't as simple as just homeschool them. I have done everything in my power to prevent my kids from getting any vaccines. And I will continue to do everything in my power to prevent my kids from getting this vax as well.
 

Valentine

Kingfisher
Gold Member
Ethically it's right because the State is coercing people to harm their own bodies. I'm not their slave and they have no right to restrict who I do business with or where I go simply because I refuse to listen to their bullshit.

Anybody who has obtained faked vaccination records or has any info on how to do so can add their data to this thread. I have already done it myself since the travel restrictions in Europe are quite annoying, and I have a few friends in real-life who also did it because of various issues they ran into like vax mandates in their careers.
 

Stadtaffe

Woodpecker
Orthodox
Gold Member
I was entered into a database and issued a document as I had the good fortune of catching covid and recovering. So I got a legitimate document which saved me (for now) the moral dilemma of having to forge one. In interactions in restaurants, I notice mainly a low level of truly caring about what's on the page, so when my six months are up, it's going to be quite tempting to try to edit the document. Will initially try to continue using it expired and see what happens. With a bit of luck the world might have gotten over this whole thing by then, but they're probably not going to give up that quickly with their agendas.

That would however just be about a relationship between yourself, a waitress and a piece of paper - it is just about a piece of paper, not about entries in a government database. I would rather get nose tested than try to board a flight with a forged document. If they trap us in a corner though and say no vax no travel as some places are starting to threaten it may become a different story.

You did not say why he wanted this paperwork - was it to travel, to not be fired from a job, to go into restaurants? Can only hope he didn't want it just so he could blend in and avoid arguments with normies. Is his life really going to be that badly affected if he stays without (fake) papers?

Then the boosters as someone wrote.. You have to have the personality to pull off this kind of thing, otherwise it's just painful.
Its sad that people find themselves having to break laws and take risks, but it seems that is the choices he and others are left with.
Yes, it is sad I had this thought early on, it's a return to the bad old days like it was in the former soviet states with fake paperwork and bribes, where you needed a whole skill set just to live normally under the yoke of a corrupt government.

So far where I live it's pieces of paper and apps are not forced that strongly, but if they got their infrastructure together for this we could all truly be screwed.
 

droughtmeat

Woodpecker
I think it's fine if you use it to keep your job in order to have and income and gather assets to prepare for when the microchips, metal rods in your anus that are used as a digital ID and facial qr codes start. Those can't be faked. You're essentially buying time if you play it well.
 

HurricaneJP

Sparrow
I have a coworker who had an exemption due for vaccination due to health reasons with her heart.
If people ask me if is I good idea to get vaccination I don't tell them cause I don't want to make health choices for them.
Pray about it and if you don't feel peace them don't get it.
I got the vaccination cause I hope to travel in the future again to see girlfriend who lives abroad.
I hope everyone is staying healthy during this time.
 

Sisyphus

Woodpecker
I think it's fine if you use it to keep your job in order to have and income and gather assets to prepare for when the microchips, metal rods in your anus that are used as a digital ID and facial qr codes start. Those can't be faked. You're essentially buying time if you play it well.

• I've argued this point before. If you're using your income to unplug yourself from the evil system and prepare yourself as opposed to participating in the petty amusements of craft breweries and other distractions then I believe you are justified.

• Regarding the idea of "lying" I've noted before that they started the lying. This entire hysteria is built on lies and they declared a war that was not of our choosing. At this point if you have to lie to extricate yourself from a system based on a tangle of lies, then can you be considered culpable? Is it not permissible to lie to combat the tyranny of liars?

• Let's say for the sake of argument that the injection is meant to be some sort of tracking device, an infertility treatment, a culling measure, or that it has some other nefarious purpose. That is to say that the goal is the injection itself as opposed to a means to some other end such as the beginning of an ID system (I personally don't believe this, but I know many here do). If you can manipulate the system without actually receiving the poison, then whatever they're trying to accomplish will be foiled.

• In previous times of oppression, people forged papers to allow themselves and their dependents to live and reproduce. Were these people "liars" or "unethical?" Should they have just accepted death or gulag instead? You could argue that they should have, but they chose to do what they needed to do to survive and support other innocent people who couldn't fend for themselves.

• Finally, consider the actions of individuals such as the German nurse who distributed thousands of saline shots and doctors who are giving out false credentials to allow people to maintain their livelihoods and sustenance. Are these people liars or unethical or are they admirable and heroic?

Like many other complex ethical issues, there isn't an easy answer and there are fair arguments on either side. Also consider that we're making choices from a position of ignorance because we don't know what this is really about and where it's heading. I think you need to decide for yourself what your moral boundaries are and to be convinced of your rectitude. I'm not arguing in favor of moral relativity - I think that is the most evil and dangerous ethos in the world. What I am arguing is that the righteous and evil alternatives are not as clearly defined as they are for most of the other issues we discuss here.
 
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