Is it ethical and/or wise to lie to become vaccine compliant?

Elipe

Pelican
Who said for "simply material gain"? This is strategic. I'm not saying "don't fight", I'm saying "there's nothing noble about charging headfirst into cannister fire to certain defeat when you could instead take a strategic approach and win".

All your sins are premeditated and intentioned. I just told you that you lie and jaywalk every day, you can't claim ignorance now. Tomorrow, when (not if, when) you do it, that was premeditated and intentional. You knew, and yet you chose to do it. Is crossing the street a second faster excusable and important in a way that setting up a place for your family and community to thrive not?

Way too many martyrs on here looking for the easy way out.
Jaywalking and speeding are not moral categories like lying is. Lying is perfectly legal such as when you tell someone that there is a pink elephant in your backyard. Nobody can call the cops and have you arrested for telling that lie, yet it is still wrong.

Jaywalking and speeding are legal categories, and it can even be argued that not speeding is worse than speeding, because everybody speeds and the state does not believe it is worth enforcing except past a certain tolerance, and not speeding is more liable to contributing to traffic and traffic-related damage and fatality. If we apply the Sabbath test, we see that it makes no sense to follow speed limits to the letter, but to use them as a guideline or yellow light rather than a hard rule.

I do not believe it is a sin to speed or jaywalk (but recklessly doing so can be constituted to be a sin), but we should be praying for the forgiveness of sins that we committed without knowing anyway. Lying however, that is explicitly stated in God's Word as a sin. It is a moral category.

And besides, "just one more sin" is not a Christian position to take.
 

holgerdanske

Woodpecker
It's f...ing gene therapy that changes you into who knows what. We are God's creatures and thus have been created in his own image (loose interpretation as this extents to all living beings IMO). No matter what, it's a sin and I consider it ethical to do whatever it takes to refuse the mark of the beast.
 

Roosh

Cardinal
Orthodox
At the eye doctor's office I have refused the mask claiming a medical exemption for "mental health" reasons (it was accepted). I do experience a host of negative psychological feelings when wearing a mask, as I'm sure most of you as well. The spiritual guidance I received is that I'm not lying with this excuse, and I don't feel like I'm lying, but I'm still participating in the system and using their exemptions to get around compliance. Being technical or outright lying may get you out of a jam here or there, but it won't be a long-term solution.
 

NickK

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Since most of us here accept that this system is evil, we owe them nothing. We can lie to them whenever it suits us and steal from them for the benefit of our families.

God commanded the Israelites to steal the Egyptian gold as they were leaving Egypt.
Personaly, I see nothing wrong with state document forgeries and tax evasion. A penny not given to them is a penny put to good use.
 

Roosh

Cardinal
Orthodox
Since most of us here accept that this system is evil, we owe them nothing. We can lie to them whenever it suits us and steal from them for the benefit of our families.

God commanded the Israelites to steal the Egyptian gold as they were leaving Egypt.
Personaly, I see nothing wrong with state document forgeries and tax evasion. A penny not given to them is a penny put to good use.
We're called to a higher standard than the Israelites. Lying is a sin, even if it's in response to evil. Have you encountered lives of the Saints where, upon their martyrdom, they lied? I would seek spiritual guidance on the activities you are saying are not wrong.
 
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soli.deo.gloria

Woodpecker
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
If I am to roast in hell or purgatory for sticking it to Satan's minions then so be it. Maybe that makes me a bad Christian but I do not owe any of these NPCs the truth.
Since most of us here accept that this system is evil, we owe them nothing. We can lie to them whenever it suits us and steal from them for the benefit of our families.

God commanded the Israelites to steal the Egyptian gold as they were leaving Egypt.
Personaly, I see nothing wrong with state document forgeries and tax evasion. A penny not given to them is a penny put to good use.

Mark 12

13 Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. 14 They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not? 15 Should we pay or shouldn’t we?

But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” 16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

“Caesar’s,” they replied.

17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.

And they were amazed at him.

The bottom line is I'm not here to judge anyone. I'm just trying to share the truth as I understand it and I want you guys to do the right thing. I will be praying for you (and all of us). Lord have mercy. Please help us to do your will as we struggle to make our way in this fallen world.
 

SeaEagle

Robin
Mark 12

13 Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. 14 They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not? 15 Should we pay or shouldn’t we?

But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” 16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

“Caesar’s,” they replied.

17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.


And they were amazed at him.

The bottom line is I'm not here to judge anyone. I'm just trying to share the truth as I understand it and I want you guys to do the right thing. I will be praying for you (and all of us). Lord have mercy. Please help us to do your will as we struggle to make our way in this fallen world.
Perhaps the discernment between what is Caesar's and what is God's is most important.
 
Jaywalking and speeding are not moral categories like lying is. Lying is perfectly legal such as when you tell someone that there is a pink elephant in your backyard. Nobody can call the cops and have you arrested for telling that lie, yet it is still wrong.

Jaywalking and speeding are legal categories, and it can even be argued that not speeding is worse than speeding, because everybody speeds and the state does not believe it is worth enforcing except past a certain tolerance, and not speeding is more liable to contributing to traffic and traffic-related damage and fatality. If we apply the Sabbath test, we see that it makes no sense to follow speed limits to the letter, but to use them as a guideline or yellow light rather than a hard rule.

I do not believe it is a sin to speed or jaywalk (but recklessly doing so can be constituted to be a sin), but we should be praying for the forgiveness of sins that we committed without knowing anyway. Lying however, that is explicitly stated in God's Word as a sin. It is a moral category.

And besides, "just one more sin" is not a Christian position to take.
If force (aggression) is being used against you then you are no longer a moral actor. If someone breaks into you home with a gun and demands to know where your daughter is (she's in her room) do you tell him the truth?
 

Mike_Key

Woodpecker
I have a friend who has been offered the opportunity to have his wife and him entered into the govt database as vaccinated, for a nominal fee. Instinctively this seems a no brainer, however it does pose a few questions.

Firstly it is bearing false witness. It also means that he would then have to relinquish his position on it all, and for appearances, state that hes been injected. This might seem like a small price, but ultimately its untrue and means he will have to 'live the lie'.

Secondly it could potentially be uncovered down the line. The doctor who is providing this service is in a city on other side country. No attendance is necessary, but it would potentially look strange that someone residing in capital city would opt to get vaxxd in a provincial town 800kms away.

Ultimately it is fraud, and as he is not native there, it may affect long term residence if uncovered.

Its sad that people find themselves having to break laws and take risks, but it seems that is the choices he and others are left with.

I suppose you are not in the USA.

In the USA we have Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. This states that by your religion you have a right to not be discriminated against by your employer and to be exempt from forced vaccines. Also, that your religion doesn't have to be rational or sound rational to the "arbiter" at your place of employment. In the USA "non-religious good" people can get an exemption to the vaccine. Atheists too can get an exemption. Do they know this? Sadly, many "ethical non-religious" people that think of themselves as very intelligent don't know these facts.

If you are foreign to the USA and have thought of Americans as stupid people, think again.

The founding Fathers of the USA knew the Old and New Testament, they knew Rome, they were familiar with politics of Carthage, Egypt ... and they knew about politics in the region of Gaul. (Edit: They obviously knew the faults of the British empire and Kings and Queens ) They therefore were able to draft a great Constitution.

I say be honest and see if your Country's courts will have mercy on you. If not, then pray that God will make a way for you. Edit: That poison will not afflict your body. Mark 16:18 "... they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not harm them; ...".

John 3:16
 
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Aboulia

Woodpecker
Orthodox
If force (aggression) is being used against you then you are no longer a moral actor. If someone breaks into you home with a gun and demands to know where your daughter is (she's in her room) do you tell him the truth?

You are always a moral actor, regardless if force is used against you or not. You may not choose to be in situations, but you always choose how to handle them. Elipe only pointed out the amorality of some of the instances Kel brought up as breaking a societal decree isn't the same as breaking a moral law. You may use deceit, as in the instance you mentioned, but there must be a higher moral purpose for it.

Regarding the idea of "lying" I've noted before that they started the lying. This entire hysteria is built on lies and they declared a war that was not of our choosing. At this point if you have to lie to extricate yourself from a system based on a tangle of lies, then can you be considered culpable? Is it not permissible to lie to combat the tyranny of liars?

By lying, you're giving the institution more power by the illusion of compliance, which makes it harder for everyone who's honestly resisting this, this path leads to the "Glorious freedom" that existed in the USSR. If you think it's ideal, then go for it.

In previous times of oppression, people forged papers to allow themselves and their dependents to live and reproduce. Were these people "liars" or "unethical?" Should they have just accepted death or gulag instead? You could argue that they should have, but they chose to do what they needed to do to survive and support other innocent people who couldn't fend for themselves.

Yes. they're wrong, as they were complicit in evil, but as not everyone has the same strength and moral fortitude, it's to be expected. The action is understandable, as I understand anyone who does it to take care of family, but it does not justify the act. Christ didn't run from his cross, and it's not ideal that we run from ours, but he does condescend to our weakness.
• Finally, consider the actions of individuals such as the German nurse who distributed thousands of saline shots and doctors who are giving out false credentials to allow people to maintain their livelihoods and sustenance. Are these people liars or unethical or are they admirable and heroic?

Flying under the radar to oppose unethical coercive measures is clearly a self-sacrificial act and thus virtuous. For the primary concern is for the good of others and not self.

I'm not saying it's easy, but each person needs to think long and hard about it before making a decision.

If I am ever in such a position I'll ask a blessing from my priest and/or confess afterward.

Sounds like you know this is morally wrong. What can a priest's blessing do for you if your conscience isn't clean?
 

Elipe

Pelican
If force (aggression) is being used against you then you are no longer a moral actor. If someone breaks into you home with a gun and demands to know where your daughter is (she's in her room) do you tell him the truth?
A honest Christian man would, first of all, have a gun in hand and fire on the intruder. But in the event that was not the case, the honest Christian man would simply refuse to tell him anything. You may get shot, or maybe not, maybe the intruder doesn't have the nerves to make himself a murderer as well. Maybe God will shake his heart and make him falter in any murderous intent. Or God will Himself stop the bullet from killing you.

That is what faith looks like. Faith is entrusting such a situation into God's hands.

And I say this as the kind of sinner that would probably lie like crazy under that kind of duress. But the above is what is objectively correct according to our Lord.
 

Lawrence87

Woodpecker
Orthodox
Literally the opposite of what I have said in this thread and elsewhere on the forum. You're lying right now, right at this very second you are lying.

I don't really understand what you're on about.

I was merely addressing your terminology about lying to 'win' against this system. It's not going to work.

I lie, to my shame sometimes on purpose... Sometimes because I don't know the truth etc. My point isn't that somehow I am some unerring truth speaker, I'm probably worse than you for this. I can't think of any time I was justified in it though.

Lying is inevitable therefore it's okay is not a justification. Nor is they are evil therefore it's okay to lie to them etc.

But anyway my point was not about that. My point is that lying in this instance gets you nowhere, except maybe for the next few months. Then you're going to need a new strategy anyway.
 

Matthewww

Pigeon
It is bearing false witness. That being stated, the doctor entering his name into the database it technically the one lying. Your friend could always just answer, "my name is in the database", and never say anything more. I wouldn't use a non-local doctor though, especially one taking money from people across the country to do it. It would look suspicious to any investigator. The issue is future booster shots. What if those become mandatory? Is your friend going to be able to sustain this? Personally, I won't even wear a mask because I think that's a lie, so there's no way I'm lying about getting injected. I'm not going to compromise with evil.
 
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