Is the existence of the Judge Deborah justification for Female Clergy?

A prophetess is not a ‘leader’ in the sense you’re thinking of. She provided prophecies, but how does that make her a leader, exactly?
I dunno. Being a "Judge" that liberated Israel through Barak from their oppressors like Ehud, Barak and Gideon?

You see how that framing is being pushed. That for whatever reason even Conservatives end up accepting the framing of the Leftists.

Leading to Poz at a speed limit.
 
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There's no specific rule in the bible against fire-bombing entire cities, but does that mean it's ok?

Same thing with women in charge, although Japan and Germany survived the fire-bombings.

In fact, part of a curse Isaiah passed on from God was:


--Isaiah 3:12

Deborah seems to be a one-off, an exception that proves the rule. Why? Hard to know, but it's not a norm. Every time someone brings up Deborah I say, "sure, Deborah and .....?" (crickets)

That passage was one of my rebuttals.

All you need to do is look how quickly the Protestant demoniations fell into sin after allowing female clergy. Abortion, contraception, homosexuality all normalized. Political pundits instead of priests.
No on female clergy. No on deaconesses

Already happening with even so called Conservative denominations in ministries outside of the official roles of Elder.
I mean if the female Chaplains doing exactly what Elders of a Church does including administering sacraments then that looks like a sign of trouble. Even if they say they are opposed to such a thing.

I suppose not it will not be long
 

Eusebius Erasmus

Kingfisher
Orthodox
I dunno. Being a "Judge" that liberated Israel through Barak from their oppressors like Ehud, Barak and Gideon?

You see how that framing is being pushed. That for whatever reason even Conservatives end up accepting the framing of the Leftists.

Leading to Poz at a speed limit.
You’re not answering my question. I asked how being a prophetess makes her a leader.

I don’t see any framing being pushed In the Orthodox Church.
 

TheMost

Robin
One thing noone has mentioned, the Bible is careful to extol Deborah as "a mother in Israel". Yes, she was gifted as a prophet, a judge, and a political leader. But she was married to a man, presumably respected his headship in a Godly manner, and had children. She was doing everything she was supposed to as a woman; she wasn't a radical feminist. These other offices of prophet, judge, and leader were added to her. And she took the role of leader reluctantly; she WANTED Barak to step up and "be a man".
 
You’re not answering my question. I asked how being a prophetess makes her a leader.

I don’t see any framing being pushed In the Orthodox Church.

No I am paraphrasing some of the arguments presented to me by the man that I am disputing. And that the Conservatives he knows are in my estimation accepting enemy framing. Alongside this man that made those arguments.

Its an ongoing for several days.
 

Eusebius Erasmus

Kingfisher
Orthodox
No I am paraphrasing some of the arguments presented to me by the man that I am disputing. And that the Conservatives he knows are in my estimation accepting enemy framing. Alongside this man that made those arguments.

Its an ongoing for several days.
It sounds like your interlocutor is heavily confused. I can make no sense of his argument.
 
It sounds like your interlocutor is heavily confused. I can make no sense of his argument.
My paraphrase of his argument.
Being a "Judge" that liberated Israel through Barak from their oppressors like Ehud, Barak and Gideon

I should have included that quotation feature. Because the rest of the comment I made was my own commentary on that paraphrase and what it indicated and the rest of the argument that I didn't care to quote in the OP.

I suspect emotions were running high in the argument that resulted. Both on my part and on his part.
 
What's your thoughts on the proponents of this stance citing Deborah to prove that Sex roles were more flexible than we think alongside the Female Prophets of God of the Old Testament lambasting the Men at that time. And that even the prescriptions against female clergy isn't as absolute in its force compared to the doctrine of the Trinity.
This argument is not new.

When Jesus and Saint Paul declared a prohibition on women clergy these same people will claim it was because women's roles were limited at the time and that times have changed such that if they were alive today St. Paul and Jesus would endorse female clergy.

Proponents of female clergy bring up historical cases of women in authority over men, and particularly in religious or priestly roles. But this actually works against their argument.

Jesus and St. Paul knew all about Deborah, and female priestesses were extremely common in Jesus' time. The Greek world was full of priestesses of Aphrodite, vestal virgins, female oracles of Delphi and other priestesses.

It was in this world full of female clergy that Jesus and St. Paul declared emphatically that not only were women not allowed to be clergy - that they should not even speak in church.
 
That passage was one of my rebuttals.



Already happening with even so called Conservative denominations in ministries outside of the official roles of Elder.
I mean if the female Chaplains doing exactly what Elders of a Church does including administering sacraments then that looks like a sign of trouble. Even if they say they are opposed to such a thing.

I suppose not it will not be long
Orthodox and Catholic church should learn a lesson from the Protestants on why female ordination fails. I remember a Episcopalian parish that featured a lesbo who called God "her b****." Female ordinations are blasphemy to God.

Already saw that the Greek Orthodox have started to reintroduce deaconesses. This is a grave mistake and IMO heretical.

 

Eusebius Erasmus

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Orthodox and Catholic church should learn a lesson from the Protestants on why female ordination fails. I remember a Episcopalian parish that featured a lesbo who called God "her b****." Female ordinations are blasphemy to God.

Already saw that the Greek Orthodox have started to reintroduce deaconesses. This is a grave mistake and IMO heretical.


Deaconesses are mentioned in early Christian writings, but their functions were clearly delineated. For example, my understanding is that baptisms were done naked in those days, and because of this, women needed deaconesses in order to be baptized.

In principle I'm not opposed to deaconesses, as long as they don't have the same role as male deacons and are forbidden from entering within the sanctuary.
 
Orthodox and Catholic church should learn a lesson from the Protestants on why female ordination fails. I remember a Episcopalian parish that featured a lesbo who called God "her b****." Female ordinations are blasphemy to God.

Already saw that the Greek Orthodox have started to reintroduce deaconesses. This is a grave mistake and IMO heretical.

In the early church "diakonos" were servants and their primary job was to serve food to the poor. Even then they were all men until they needed some women to attend to the needs of elderly women. Today that role is an early stage of clerical formation and entirely inappropriate for women.
 
Deaconesses are mentioned in early Christian writings, but their functions were clearly delineated. For example, my understanding is that baptisms were done naked in those days, and because of this, women needed deaconesses in order to be baptized.

In principle I'm not opposed to deaconesses, as long as they don't have the same role as male deacons and are forbidden from entering within the sanctuary.
That's never going to happen. We have female lectors in the NO. The sanctuary in most parishes has already been breached.
 
This argument is not new.

When Jesus and Saint Paul declared a prohibition on women clergy these same people will claim it was because women's roles were limited at the time and that times have changed such that if they were alive today St. Paul and Jesus would endorse female clergy.

Proponents of female clergy bring up historical cases of women in authority over men, and particularly in religious or priestly roles. But this actually works against their argument.

Jesus and St. Paul knew all about Deborah, and female priestesses were extremely common in Jesus' time. The Greek world was full of priestesses of Aphrodite, vestal virgins, female oracles of Delphi and other priestesses.

It was in this world full of female clergy that Jesus and St. Paul declared emphatically that not only were women not allowed to be clergy - that they should not even speak in church.

Agreed that they were aware of said figures in their history. Hence the citation of of the Prophetess Huldah and Deborah as a way to create a breach that opens up the clergy to women. As a way to say that greater flexibility of sex roles was always the case even when God was directly King of Israel pre-incarnation.

Those who aren't so familar with Church History,Church Fathers and the Scriptures would be more likely to be persuaded by the example of Deborah.


And its not as much a problem and crucial as the Trinity in their estimation.

And then there is the already existing phenomenon of women taking on the roles that Elders/Priests have without the title. In ministries outside of the official hierarchy.

If it were merely limited the Liberal apostates then its easier to deal with. But even when those who believe in the
Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity who are "Conservatives" are also endorsing said practices.

I admit I find this troubling.
 
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Female judges is extremely troubling, just look at what happened at the legal world where female judges are a reality for decades. Female lawyers have banded together to systematically change, mould and influence the law in order to make it favourable to women, hence battered woman defence, family law, anti-discrimination law. Female lawyers are completely open about this. If this is transplanted into religious congregations it doesn't bear thinking about.
 
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