It Is Time To Leave The West

Grow Bag

Pelican
Orthodox Inquirer
An Orthodox friend gave me the Desert Fathers to read and I never got warm with them, because they were running away. Christ and the Apostles faced persecution. And it is non-practical to run away, because one day there is no more place to run to.
That is spiritual naivety. These men were not running away, they devoted their lives to striving to know God and praying for others. Without the Desert Fathers they'd likely be no Athonite Saints, or monasteries for that matter. Orthodox Elders and Saints have inspired many thousands to turn to Christ with their hard earned wisdom and knowledge of The Way. The Elders and Saints are an inspiration to me and have held me up when I felt like giving up. There's nothing more valuable to me right now than the writings and teachings of the many hesychasts and monks who, through great sacrifice and devotion, illuminated The Way. And God only knows how much their prayers of intercession have helped others.
 

Jesu Juva

 
Banned
That is spiritual naivety. These men were not running away, they devoted their lives to striving to know God and praying for others. Without the Desert Fathers they'd likely be no Athonite Saints, or monasteries for that matter. Orthodox Elders and Saints have inspired many thousands to turn to Christ with their hard earned wisdom and knowledge of The Way. The Elders and Saints are an inspiration to me and have held me up when I felt like giving up. There's nothing more valuable to me right now than the writings and teachings of the many hesychasts and monks who, through great sacrifice and devotion, illuminated The Way. And God only knows how much their prayers of intercession have helped others.
They actually ran from physical persecution, at least in the first generation. So, I have to disagree with you. Because how many people has Christ saved who was not running away. If you are Orthodox and you can learn some things from them, I do not criticize that. I just think think, Christ-like does not mean to run away. For the sake of peace, God wanted them to run: in our day and time, running away is not the solution.
 

El Draque

Pelican
Orthodox
From my days on Instagram looking for women, Russia seemed very sexualized and materialistic to me, not worse than the West, but also not better (rather worse). I also see the danger of islamization in Russia.

But in general, I would never allow anyone into my home who does not defend his own. I cannot imagine to live on a soil which is not that of my forefathers. Since when is running away a virtue? "My solution to globalism is to build a rocket and to be the man on the moon." Giving up your land is a sin. Be steadfast and have faith.

Where are you from?
 

Jesu Juva

 
Banned
They actually ran from physical persecution, at least in the first generation. So, I have to disagree with you. Because how many people has Christ saved who was not running away. If you are Orthodox and you can learn some things from them, I do not criticize that. I just think think, Christ-like does not mean to run away. For the sake of peace, God wanted them to run: in our day and time, running away is not the solution.
If their actions end up in helping people, it was probably for the good. Maybe I was too harsh on them, I just get tired of people today talking about leaving their places, that might influence my judgement. And my friend talked about moving to another country and justified it in such a manner. Different times. I myself work in a foreign country temporarily, so I am quite a hypocrite in a sense and I doubt that I would not flee physical persecution. My views are more balanced than I expressed them. I wanted to clarify that, because I know, Orthodox hold the Desert Fathers dear.
 
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canuckj

Robin
Other Christian
Anyone have any first-hand knowledge of Paraguay? For some reason I have become quite interested in the country lately. Are they resisting the vax?
 
I would like you to be right in that matter.

But father Seraphim Rose (1934 - 1982) said: ` What started in Russia will end in America`

The metropolit Neophitos of Morphou said, in a recent declration, after discussing with some hesychast : `If people in America would know what comes, half of them would run away`

And other warnings appeard also from last decades spiritual Christain - orthodox fathers.

Did Father Seraphim Rose in his great wisdom not also say "I should state an elementary truth: modern science, when it deals with scientific facts, does indeed usually know more than the holy Fathers, and the holy Fathers can easily make mistakes of scientific facts; it is not scientific facts which we look for in the holy Fathers, but true theology and the true philosophy which is based on theology."

And if the holy Fathers could easily make mistakes of scientific facts because they do not have the full knowledge of science, would the same not also apply to politics, and even more to later theologians, indeed to Father Seraphim Rose himself? And to the Meotropolitan Neophitos of Morphou indeed as well?

We should certainly respect their great wisdom on theology and the true philosophy based on theology. However, when it comes to matters of science or politics, we need to be mindful that they may not have the full spectrum of facts and therefore can be wrong on such matters.

If you decide to leave your own country it should be done only if you yourself have all the facts, and are certain that to leave is the right thing to do. Not because a Metropolitan makes statements about politics, or because Gonzalo Liro does. You yourself must be certain.
 

Grow Bag

Pelican
Orthodox Inquirer
Before 2020 I often posted in Alt-Right comments that if you lack the strength in depth to make a stand, then retreat. When many of them were posting about the poz, the great replacement, never being able to buy a house, have a family, etc., I wrote about going to countries where they could buy a house with a decent amount of land for £5,000, namely Bulgaria. I was looking to do the same but events overtook me. People have left their countries to escape persecution since the days of the Old Testament. That said, what happened in 2020 is different. The elite consolidated greatly in the 20th Century and now the majority of the nations are in thrall to them. Those leaders who made a stand are either dead or have been given an offer they can't refuse. The elite now have the technology and experience to make escape almost impossible.

If you decide to leave to somewhere you consider to be a lesser evil, then at least think about how your presence will be viewed when there's engineered food scarcity. From all the evidence, I believe that is on the cards. Not only will you not have had the time to learn the language, culture and lay of the land, but you will never be one of them. You'll be an outsider in a country full of bitter, impoverished people struggling to survive. If you are someone who works online, likely that avenue will be closed to you and you'll be without income and opportunities to make a living.

Now I'm going to contradict myself by saying some countries will be slow to build the beast infrastructure and there will be places to hide away. Again Bulgaria, even northern Romania and Ukraine come to mind. If you had a house with land in a dying village of mainly elderly people, as is often the case in Bulgaria, your youthful presence will be appreciated if you make yourself useful. You'll be able to be survive if you work hard at making your land productive and buying what you can't produce from locals. But your stay there will still necessitate you having contact with government authorities for various reasons, taxes, bills, visas, and the like, so you won't be off the radar. And when a digital currency is implemented then they can cut off access to your savings.

Just be realist and think of all possible scenarios.
 

orthobulgarian

Pigeon
Orthodox
Before 2020 I often posted in Alt-Right comments that if you lack the strength in depth to make a stand, then retreat. When many of them were posting about the poz, the great replacement, never being able to buy a house, have a family, etc., I wrote about going to countries where they could buy a house with a decent amount of land for £5,000, namely Bulgaria. I was looking to do the same but events overtook me. People have left their countries to escape persecution since the days of the Old Testament. That said, what happened in 2020 is different. The elite consolidated greatly in the 20th Century and now the majority of the nations are in thrall to them. Those leaders who made a stand are either dead or have been given an offer they can't refuse. The elite now have the technology and experience to make escape almost impossible.

If you decide to leave to somewhere you consider to be a lesser evil, then at least think about how your presence will be viewed when there's engineered food scarcity. From all the evidence, I believe that is on the cards. Not only will you not have had the time to learn the language, culture and lay of the land, but you will never be one of them. You'll be an outsider in a country full of bitter, impoverished people struggling to survive. If you are someone who works online, likely that avenue will be closed to you and you'll be without income and opportunities to make a living.

Now I'm going to contradict myself by saying some countries will be slow to build the beast infrastructure and there will be places to hide away. Again Bulgaria, even northern Romania and Ukraine come to mind. If you had a house with land in a dying village of mainly elderly people, as is often the case in Bulgaria, your youthful presence will be appreciated if you make yourself useful. You'll be able to be survive if you work hard at making your land productive and buying what you can't produce from locals. But your stay there will still necessitate you having contact with government authorities for various reasons, taxes, bills, visas, and the like, so you won't be off the radar. And when a digital currency is implemented then they can cut off access to your savings.

Just be realist and think of all possible scenarios.
Bulgarian here. While I welcome everyone who is brother in Christ to leave near me it’s also important for you westerners to assimilate and integrate into the body of Bulgarian nation in order to stay here. Simply said we are settled and concrete ethnicity and not generally just “white people” as you probably perceive us. (Not commenting how hypocritical is to consider us not white when we are in the west and to suddenly become perceived as white when you need asylum) If you want to live on our land one should know and follow our customs, to get Bulgarian name and to be Orthodox and to not deal with our women. And most importantly to forget your own ethnically baggage, Puritan heritage and so on nonsense which get your own nationality to its cure state.
 
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xmdr

Pigeon
Orthodox
Bulgarian here. While I welcome everyone who is brother in Christ to leave near me it’s also important for you westerners to assimilate and integrate into the body of Bulgarian nation in order to stay here. Simply said we are settled and concrete ethnicity and not generally just “white people” as you probably perceive us. (Not commenting how hypocritical is to consider us not white when we are in the west and to suddenly become perceived as white when you need asylum) If you want to live on our land one should know and follow our customs, to get Bulgarian name and to be Orthodox and to not deal with our women. And most importantly to forget your own ethnically baggage, Puritan heritage and so on nonsense which get your own nationality to its cure state.
You should change your name to rightwingbulgarian, because orthodoxbulgarian YOU ARE NOT lol.

You are misleading them "the westerners" that you are actually christian with a name like that ...

Are you aware what you are writing? You mandated to fellow orthodox, BASED brothers that they will need to do this and that, reeking huge insecurity with the statement about women?? Shame on you man. People in this forum are a rare kind, you should be more careful.

From an orthodox Bulgarian, as it was mentioned already.
 
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roid

Woodpecker
It is the same thing in South East Asia. You can't really escape unless you live outside of cities.




 

Easy_C

Peacock
An Orthodox friend gave me the Desert Fathers to read and I never got warm with them, because they were running away. Christ and the Apostles faced persecution. And it is non-practical to run away, because one day there is no more place to run to.

Maybe Christ’s family should have stayed and fought Herod?
 

Jesu Juva

 
Banned
Maybe Christ’s family should have stayed and fought Herod?
The crucifixion is foreshadowed in the Old Testament and the only way to salvation. Christ being killed by Herod would contradict God's plan.
The early Christians did not flee physical persecution, but were fed to the lions in the Colosseum.
At least, it should be a legit question: What is the Christian way in the face of persecution?
I honestly think, that running away is not the correct answer. But if people disagree and hold the Desert Fathers dear, I have no problem with that. I never got warm with them, that does not mean, no one else can. If they help people, I am happy about that, I have no ill feelings towards them.
 

02Hero

 
Banned
Other Christian
I would rather fight with fellow countrymen than to go to some place where I will not be accepted fully. Eventhough where I come from there is many problems. I have been to other countries and never felt home. It is that simple.
 

NickK

 
Banned
Orthodox
The crucifixion is foreshadowed in the Old Testament and the only way to salvation. Christ being killed by Herod would contradict God's plan.
The early Christians did not flee physical persecution, but were fed to the lions in the Colosseum.
At least, it should be a legit question: What is the Christian way in the face of persecution?
I honestly think, that running away is not the correct answer. But if people disagree and hold the Desert Fathers dear, I have no problem with that. I never got warm with them, that does not mean, no one else can. If they help people, I am happy about that, I have no ill feelings towards them.
Read on St Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna and then come back.
 

Jesu Juva

 
Banned
Polycarp went to Rome to discuss the date of Easter with Anicetus, the Bishop of Rome, and when he returned home he was arrested and executed (burned alive) for refusing to deny Christ. If you want to discuss, maybe we should do so in private messages.
 

NickK

 
Banned
Orthodox
Polycarp went to Rome to discuss the date of Easter with Anicetus, the Bishop of Rome, and when he returned home he was arrested and executed (burned alive) for refusing to deny Christ. If you want to discuss, maybe we should do so in personal messages.
Saint Polycarp was hiding from Roman authorities and was arrested in a barn after he fled Smyrna.
Meanwhile a zealot named Cointus foolishly surrendered himself to the Romans stating he is a Christian, but when faced with his death he sacrificed to Ceasar.
 

DanielH

Ostrich
Orthodox
They actually ran from physical persecution, at least in the first generation. So, I have to disagree with you. Because how many people has Christ saved who was not running away. If you are Orthodox and you can learn some things from them, I do not criticize that. I just think think, Christ-like does not mean to run away. For the sake of peace, God wanted them to run: in our day and time, running away is not the solution.
Christ fled to Egypt, and he also fled Jerusalem before his crucifixion. Time after time he also disappeared through crowds trying to kill him. He eventually did allow himself to be crucified of course. There is more nuance than what you're implying.
 

NickK

 
Banned
Orthodox
@DanielH and @NickK

You are right, Nick. I had to read up on the details.
How do you see the martyrdom of Germanicus of Smyrna? I see his martyrdom as the purest example. Didn't Anthony the Great regard being in the desert as an alternative to martyrdom?
Yes, monasticism is also martyrdom, perhaps even more difficult than bodily torture, which lasts only briefly.
As for Germanicus, he is mentioned in St Polycarp's account as an elder who, when faced with the lions in the arena, was provoking them to attack him, causing the pagan crowd to shout "kill the atheist!".
 

Jesu Juva

 
Banned
Yes, monasticism is also martyrdom, perhaps even more difficult than bodily torture, which lasts only briefly.
As for Germanicus, he is mentioned in St Polycarp's account as an elder who, when faced with the lions in the arena, was provoking them to attack him, causing the pagan crowd to shout "kill the atheist!".
There can be different kinds of martyrdom, but classical martyrdom, being burned alive or eaten by lions is worse than anything I can imagine.
When you call Germanicus an elder, do you mean the office or his age?
 
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