Jay Dyer

FactusIRX

Kingfisher
No one should listen to Jay Dyer, particularly Catholics.

Yes, he is intelligent, well read, but so was the devil so don't be enamored. Jay Dyer oozes pride, this was my impression before knowing anything about him and listening to a conversation interview he had with Roosh a while back. His aggressive assault against Cathollicism shows his stripes.

He has converted and reverted between Churches I believe 4 or 5 times. Switching from Baptism to Calvinism, then to Catholicism, then E.O. then back to Catholic, now EO again. With perhaps some kaballah and atheism somewhere in there.

Theological differences with Eastern Churches aside, when you see into his life, his "inconsistencies" to be charitable, he isn't someone you should be taking your advice from. Take your advice from people who are solidly grounded in their faith, and that doesn't mean 2-5 years. And not someone who gets stoned and reads scripture.

This is a breakdown from a Sedevacantist who claims to have had dialogue with Dyer back in the day.

I'm a baby when it comes to theological arguments and principles, so I skip any of his theological debates with other denominations (including his debates with Catholics). I prefer to take my theological questions to my Priest, who can dumb it down for me. I watch Jay for his philosophical arguments against atheists and his esoteric/pop-culture material (both of which I have some formal training / background in).

As for that video, I'm not too interested in hearing what a Sedevacantist has to say about anything.
 

Roosh

Cardinal
Orthodox
No one should listen to Jay Dyer, particularly Catholics.

Yes, he is intelligent, well read, but so was the devil so don't be enamored. Jay Dyer oozes pride, this was my impression before knowing anything about him and listening to a conversation interview he had with Roosh a while back. His aggressive assault against Cathollicism shows his stripes.

He has converted and reverted between Churches I believe 4 or 5 times. Switching from Baptism to Calvinism, then to Catholicism, then E.O. then back to Catholic, now EO again. With perhaps some kaballah and atheism somewhere in there.

Theological differences with Eastern Churches aside, when you see into his life, his "inconsistencies" to be charitable, he isn't someone you should be taking your advice from. Take your advice from people who are solidly grounded in their faith, and that doesn't mean 2-5 years. And not someone who gets stoned and reads scripture.

This is a breakdown from a Sedevacantist who claims to have had dialogue with Dyer back in the day.

Isn't this video from the two brothers who are lying about being Catholic monks? If they lie about themselves, why should we listen to claims they have about other people?
 

Hermetic Seal

Pelican
Orthodox
Gold Member
I watched about half of that video a while back. It was tedious girl-gossip-tier stuff. "Look at Dyer associating with this weird guy a decade ago! And this other weird guy! And he changed his beliefs a bunch of times!" Shallow, petty stuff. I really don't care about what Dyer was doing a decade ago when he was interested in weird mystical nonsense, I care about what he's doing now that he's Orthodox. The Dimond brothers are just throwing a bunch of poop against the wall hoping some of it sticks.

Most of the criticism of Dyer is non-sequitur. "He's mean! He made so-and-so unhappy!" I really don't care about any of this. Dyer doesn't claim to be a spiritual leader or role model, he's an apologist who serves a specific role and the frequency of these criticisms really highlights the unhealthy degree to which many people want to turn internet content creators into heroes or role models, which is good for neither party. Dyer seems to handle it a lot better than, say, Owen Benjamin or Vox Day; Dyer is a smart guy who knows patristics and theology forward and backward but can also be silly and not take himself deadly serious all the time.

If you want edifying Orthodox teaching, there are a lot of great guys out there doing that - Abbot Tryphon, Hieromonk Kosmas, Fr. Spyridon Bailey, Fr. Josiah Trenham. If you need to know the answers to some complex theological topic, or how to answer Catholic apologists, Dyer is one of the guys who's good at that. (Or if you're interested in Hollywood shenanigans or movies, but I don't pay much attention to that output.)
 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
Isn't this video from the two brothers who are lying about being Catholic monks? If they lie about themselves, why should we listen to claims they have about other people?

A secular judge ruled that they are indeed Monks in a court case. They believe they are monks, so I don't believe they are lying more that they have a different perspective. Take it for what it's worth. It is true they are in schism with the Roman Catholic Church so not considered monks by the Vatican, although this position would as I understand it match the Catholic position with respect to E. Ortho Monks too.

I've noticed a strong and instant response from E. Orthos on VaticanCatholic Dimond Brothers in particular on another thread. I am not sure why this is, but perhaps it is the contents of that video and another. The video explains his personal history with occultism, and theological error, how he knows Catholic theology but in many cases misrepresents it. The video does not actively endorse the sede position, which I do not hold.

Jay Dyer is not on many Catholic Priests' radar. These guys apparently knew him, as Jay Dyer was apparently a Sede Vacante Catholic for a period of time and in contact with the Dimond "brothers".

Perhaps you can ask him about it
 

SilentCal

Robin
I’m also not a fan of Jay at all. I think he lost the debate and acted immaturely in this video:


He says he was Catholic, but isn’t transparent about it - he should clarify that he was in SSPX/sede circles.

Also he gets papal infallibility wrong, insisting that it always applies even for the Ordinary Magisterium, which of course is a view that Catholics don’t hold. Ironically, he still has a lot in common with sedes and the SSPX (seems to hate Vatican II and the last few popes, etc.)

I have a lot of respect for the Orthodox and even almost joined Orthodoxy at one point. But Jay Dyer is probably the worst representative of Orthodoxy I have seen.
 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
I didn't know about that, reference please

Court Case Ruling


Defendants deny that they misrepresented their doctrinal views or their status as Benedictines, and further argue that this dispute cannot be adjudicated without interpreting religious doctrine, specifically the requirements and obligations that must be fulfilled in order for one to become a Benedictine monk and for a monastery to be considered a Benedictine community. It is undisputed that MHFM operates as a religious organization and not-for-profit corporation. The defendants consider themselves an independent Benedictine community operating outside the governance of the Benedictine Confederation and the Catholic Church. Under the "neutral principles of law" approach, this court could properly determine whether MHFM is affiliated with the recognized Order of St. Benedict, but it is a doctrinal issue whether MHFM operates according to the Rule of St. Benedict and can self-identify as a Benedictine monastery. Defendants believe they are Benedictines, and have a theological basis for this belief. Apparently, there are critics of MHFM who reject this self-identification. At the time he donated money to MHFM and joined the monastery, plaintiff knew that MHFM was not recognized by the Order of St. Benedict, but accepted it as Benedictine nonetheless. The First Amendment protects the rights of the defendants to decide matters of faith free from state intrusion. To the extent that plaintiff asks this court to determine whether MHFM is a true Benedictine community, such an inquiry would require the resolution of theological issues and religious doctrine and is prohibited by the First Amendment.
 

DanielH

Ostrich
Orthodox
You can't just identify as a monk. No serious Catholic or Orthodox Christian should care what the United States government has to say regarding Church matters. Completely irrelevant and ludicrous. The government also says gays can marry and children can change their gender. Sedes again hijacking a thread; this has nothing to do with Jay Dyer.
 

Roosh

Cardinal
Orthodox
Unfortunately a lot of heated discussions are coming from the sede corner of RVF. Much of the recent moderation has had to deal with them and their sensitivities. The forum has place for traditional Catholics but I don't think we'll be able to handle a schismatic Catholic group that is aggressively at odds with everyone else. I advise the sedes to create their own private Telegram group or the like to vent some of the steam they are releasing here.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
If memory serves, the judge did not rule that they are monks; he ruled that they have a first amendment right to refer to themselves as “monks.” These are very different and like an above poster said, secular courts have no bearing on religious truth. They received the big donation because the donor thought they were monks due to what they call themselves on the internet, and anyone can see they present themselves fraudulently when asking for money.

Furthermore, they lie constantly about other things. Their “refutation” of Orthodoxy includes the lie that the Council of Florence was “ratified by all the Orthodox Patriarchs” as their “proof” that it was an Ecumenical Council. In reality, it was ratified by fewer than half the Patriarchs. This is not simply a mistake, it’s a lie. I pointed out both of these things over and over on the thread here on RVF they were participating on, and they didn’t even attempt to refute what I’m saying (because I’m right and they know it).

None of us is above reproach and criticism, and we’ve all done and said things we probably shouldn’t have. But given how often the Dimonds lie about other topics, there isn’t much of a reason to care about what they’ve said about Jay either.
 

Pioneer

Sparrow
Their “refutation” of Orthodoxy includes the lie that the Council of Florence was “ratified by all the Orthodox Patriarchs” as their “proof” that it was an Ecumenical Council. In reality, it was ratified by fewer than half the Patriarchs. This is not simply a mistake, it’s a lie.
Source?
 

KantPost

Sparrow
No one should listen to Jay Dyer, particularly Catholics.

Yes, he is intelligent, well read, but so was the devil so don't be enamored. Jay Dyer oozes pride, this was my impression before knowing anything about him and listening to a conversation interview he had with Roosh a while back. His aggressive assault against Cathollicism shows his stripes.

He has converted and reverted between Churches I believe 4 or 5 times. Switching from Baptism to Calvinism, then to Catholicism, then E.O. then back to Catholic, now EO again. With perhaps some kaballah and atheism somewhere in there.

Theological differences with Eastern Churches aside, when you see into his life, his "inconsistencies" to be charitable, he isn't someone you should be taking your advice from. Take your advice from people who are solidly grounded in their faith, and that doesn't mean 2-5 years. And not someone who gets stoned and reads scripture.

This is a breakdown from a Sedevacantist who claims to have had dialogue with Dyer back in the day.

For me the point of Dyer is to steer young men away from Catholicism and into Orthodoxy. The red flags were too much for me in the end. I listened to him a lot a couple of years ago but was put off by his arrogance and lack of charity towards Catholics. He has a chip on his shoulder and I don't get all the fandom here. In my opinion he puts on this big brain act but he does not have a gifted mind, and does not deserve all the flattery he gets on here. He is verbose and his videos are boring. His Esoteric Hollywood book is worse. I didn't know either that he is a drug user until now, so my opinion is now worse.
And his past is most certainly not something to gloss over. It is a strong indicator of future behaviour.
 

Pioneer

Sparrow
Literally nothing Jay Dyer says can be taken at face value. That’s why it’s so ill advised to debate him in real time where he can spray you with absurd claims like an uzi. By the time you check one factoid, he’s peppered you with 10 more. That’s why he’s ducking written debates.
 

DanielH

Ostrich
Orthodox
I saw that he's been streaming with Shaun Attwood, an utter degenerate scumbag, informer, strongly linked to being in the Freemasons and all round unmitigated wrong'un.

That in itself was a bit troubling.
So Jay may be connected in two degrees of separation from freemasonry? Whoa, who would have thought a guy who wrote "Esoteric Hollywood" would do such a thing? Heard that Jesus guy was hanging around a bunch of sinners too - prostitutes, tax collectors and such.
And his past is most certainly not something to gloss over. It is a strong indicator of future behaviour.
Strange that you would post this comment on this forum of all places.
Literally nothing Jay Dyer says can be taken at face value. That’s why it’s so ill advised to debate him in real time where he can spray you with absurd claims like an uzi. By the time you check one factoid, he’s peppered you with 10 more. That’s why he’s ducking written debates.
Weird way to say he knows a lot.

Jay is a great apologist, if he wasn't he wouldn't get so much hate here from self described Catholics. For bystanders, I encourage you to check out his theology playlist on youtube, and report back to let us know if there are too many videos on Catholicism. There are literally thousands of people on his Discord channel who contribute their conversion to Orthodoxy at least in part to Jay Dyer.
 

KantPost

Sparrow
The vibe from the Dyer fans is protective and I am left feeling like there is a cult aspect to Orthodoxy for many. Any criticism is quickly dismissed. The critic is "othered" and his opinion is discarded, out of hand.
Jay is a great apologist, if he wasn't he wouldn't get so much hate here from self described Catholics.
You are projecting. There is zero hate from Catholics towards Dyer here. The opposite. There is justified criticism of a questionable public figure. Your judging of us as "self-described Catholics" is an insult which is all too common from many Orthodox posters on here. You are the least Christian people I know of on the forum when it comes to Catholics and mocking our pope, hierarchy and faith.
For bystanders, I encourage you to check out his theology playlist on youtube, and report back to let us know if there are too many videos on Catholicism.
You still dismiss the legitimate points raised, in a reflexive manner which suggests to me that Dyer is beyond criticism for Orthodox and others (read: non-Catholic).
There are literally thousands of people on his Discord channel who contribute their conversion to Orthodoxy at least in part to Jay Dyer.
Again, you make my point that the purpose of Dyer is to drive a wedge between Catholics and Orthodox. A true Christian would seek reconciliation and unity. It is plain as day to all that Dyer's purpose is division and disunity. I mean this is all so totally obvious to everyone, but there is this cultish behaviour whereby Orthodox close ranks and protect a man who has a quite checkered past and continues today to behave in all sorts of questionable ways. How much more obvious does this have to be.
 
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Aboulia

Woodpecker
Orthodox
If memory serves, the judge did not rule that they are monks; he ruled that they have a first amendment right to refer to themselves as “monks.” These are very different and like an above poster said, secular courts have no bearing on religious truth. They received the big donation because the donor thought they were monks due to what they call themselves on the internet, and anyone can see they present themselves fraudulently when asking for money.

Furthermore, they lie constantly about other things. Their “refutation” of Orthodoxy includes the lie that the Council of Florence was “ratified by all the Orthodox Patriarchs” as their “proof” that it was an Ecumenical Council. In reality, it was ratified by fewer than half the Patriarchs. This is not simply a mistake, it’s a lie. I pointed out both of these things over and over on the thread here on RVF they were participating on, and they didn’t even attempt to refute what I’m saying (because I’m right and they know it).

None of us is above reproach and criticism, and we’ve all done and said things we probably shouldn’t have. But given how often the Dimonds lie about other topics, there isn’t much of a reason to care about what they’ve said about Jay either.

@MichaelWitcoff AFAIK The only one to not sign the Council of Florence was St Mark of Ephesus, so if he was not the only Patriarch there, the statement rings untrue.

I can at least understand where the dislike for Dyer comes from, he comes across as arrogant, I can't comment on his content because I've never been able to listen to him for longer than 10 minutes. I prefer Matthew Raphael Johnson as an Orthodox lecturer/writer.
 

DanielH

Ostrich
Orthodox
The vibe from the Dyer fans is protective and I am left feeling like there is a cult aspect to Orthodoxy for many. Any criticism is quickly dismissed. The critic is "othered" and his opinion is discarded, out of hand.

You are projecting. There is zero hate from Catholics towards Dyer here. The opposite. There is justified criticism of a questionable public figure. Your judging of us as "self-described Catholics" is an insult which is all too common from many Orthodox posters on here. You are the least Christian people I know of on the forum when it comes to Catholics and mocking our pope, hierarchy and faith.
If you view the Pope as valid then you aren't included in my statement of "self-described Catholic"
 
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