Juice Diet

Papist

Kingfisher
Trad Catholic
Has anybody tried this? I'm very tempted. I'm unsure whether to drink only juice (mostly vegetable), or skip breakfast, have juice for lunch and then a real meal.

I'm ashamed to have gained over two stone (28 lbs) since lockdown and my gut disgusts me. I shouldn't be vain, but it's a health issue, too.

I'd be interested in hearing opinions - for and against.

Has anyone seen Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead?

 

newcomer

Robin
Orthodox
Has anybody tried this? I'm very tempted. I'm unsure whether to drink only juice (mostly vegetable), or skip breakfast, have juice for lunch and then a real meal.

I'm ashamed to have gained over two stone (28 lbs) since lockdown and my gut disgusts me. I shouldn't be vain, but it's a health issue, too.

I'd be interested in hearing opinions - for and against.

Has anyone seen Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead?


Fast through Wednesday and Fridays, eat to satiate hunger, not to pleasure your tongue.
Vegetable juice is fine, green tea is better imo. More convenient too ( no need for blender).
 

Tom Slick

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Yep, I've seen Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead and I think it's a pretty good docu. However, I don't think it made a proper conclusion at the end, so here is mine, based on my own experience and also on what we see of the two characters in the film: the author and the trucker.

The maker of the film is a workaholic who had a variety of incurable and mostly untreatable problems, with one of the symptoms being skin rash, which is very often caused by diet. However, when he took a vacation and completely changed his diet, nearly all his symptoms disappeared. My theory is that his diet and overwork originally caused his problems, but it was mostly his diet of rich and processed foods, as well as alcohol, that were doing the most damage.

When he got away from work stress and ate essentially no processed or rich (difficult to digest) foods, his symptoms disappeared, but I think not because the vegetable and fruit juice cured the root cause of his sickness, but simply because they did not contain any of the normal toxins, allergens, and sensitizing components that he regularly ate.

The proof of this theory is that when he returned to eating toxic foodstuffs, all of his symptoms would return, which they did from time to time prior to making this documentary, according to my recollection; it's been over 10 years since I've watched it.

I'll move to an analysis of the overweight trucker and I think this further validates my theory. The trucker was able to lose a great deal of weight and improve his mood and outlook from vegetable juicing, but only to a certain point. Again, I think this can be explained mostly by his elimination of toxic and allergenic foods and it should not be concluded that raw vegetable juice was specifically therapeutic or curative, because if it were then his condition would have continued to improve instead of plateauing where it did, still obese and far shy of where a normally healthy man of his age should be in regards to his BMI, etc., not that this one metric is the most important, merely the one that they focused upon in the film.

It's likely that years of eating toxic foodstuffs caused enough damage to the trucker that he will have to continue to completely avoid standard processed foodstuffs as well as finding something specifically medicinal for his particular health problems in order to overcome the remaining hurdles of losing the additional weight, etc.
 

Sooth

Pelican
Gold Member
No matter what anyone says you can imaging your body as a water tank that has an inflow of water and a tap on the outlet.
If the water is flowing in faster than the tap is letting it out the volume in the tank will increase.

To reduce the storage volume (body fat) you have to either slow down the supply flow (restrict calorie intake) or increase the outlet flow (exercise). Doing both speeds up the process.

There is a whole industry built on the best flowing taps, what water additives to add, if its better to use a pump, syphon or gravity. Purple water is better than red water I heard. I also heard if you cool the water going in and heat the water going out the level drops faster... etc

If you want to lose weight you have to become comfortable with the discomfort of hunger. It doesn't matter what you eat - but it should be "balanced". You should be eating a diet that has the required nutrience and properties for your body to function properly. If you want to you can do that by eating suboptimally and supplementing, but that's silly in my opinion and was probably sold by the guy that either sells the suboptimal food or the supplements.
 

Tom Slick

Kingfisher
Orthodox
It doesn't matter what you eat - but it should be "balanced". You should be eating a diet that has the required nutrience and properties for your body to function properly.

I'm trying to make sure I understand your idea. So, it does not matter what you eat? Does this imply that in your view, where output should be greater than input of calories, that a calorie of X is the same as a calorie of Y? Essentially, there are no significant qualitative differences between foods because they can all be distilled down to a numerical value measured in calories?
 

rainy

Pelican
Other Christian
I agree it’s about calorie deficit. But levels of hunger can vary.

Take for example a BMR of 1,800 calories and a general calorie expenditure of 500 per day on top of it.

You’d feel much better and much fuller burning an additional 500 calories thru exercise to get you to 2,800 per day and then eating 1,800-2,000 to create a deficit, then instead to not exercise and try to limit caloric intake to 1,300 or less to create the same deficit.

Former is significantly easier and more sustainable than the latter.

Any ongoing sub 1,500 calorie deficit is going to have you feeling terrible, hungry, headaches, trouble thinking, etc.

I always suggest increasing a calorie deficit thru increasing activity and then eating satiating foods like meat, eggs and veggies. They keep you fuller.

500 calories of steak keeps you much fuller and is much better than 500 calories of chips.
 

Tom Slick

Kingfisher
Orthodox
500 calories of steak keeps you much fuller and is much better than 500 calories of chips.
If I can't overcome any of these so-called caloric deficits with bags of chips in order to cure the symptoms you've described: "feeling terrible, hungry, headaches, trouble thinking, etc." then why are calories pre-eminent in your health paradigm?

It seems to me that there is a constant incongruency within this caloric intake vs. caloric output paradigm that is arbitrarily dismissed when the qualitative value of food obviously has primacy over the calorie comparison, such as steak vs. potato chips.

In other words, either the qualitative value, or perhaps it could be called the nutritional value (but that is still an empirical abstraction, a distillation into numbers, or fractions, from the whole) of food has primacy or the caloric content has primacy, but trying to have it both ways is a fixation on empirical data in order to avoid addressing the multivariant complexities of health and diet.

For example, neither you nor the previous poster mentioned the toxic or allergenic value of food for particular individuals. There can be a food, such as milk or eggs, that have great nutritional value, but also great allergenic potential that can rise to a variety of symptom thresholds that would affect a person in a myriad of ways, including their weight, which have nothing to do with the utterly simplistic notion of caloric content.
 

Sooth

Pelican
Gold Member
I'm trying to make sure I understand your idea. So, it does not matter what you eat? Does this imply that in your view, where output should be greater than input of calories, that a calorie of X is the same as a calorie of Y? Essentially, there are no significant qualitative differences between foods because they can all be distilled down to a numerical value measured in calories?


Output should only be greater than input if your intention is to loose weight. If this stays the case for too long the body will eventually die.

If you break it down to first principals there are many more factors that go into the equation, such as starting body mass, ambient temperature etc as the base rate at which the body burns energy to function is different for an obese person vs a normal person.

All food can be broken down into it's parts and then measured in calories and nutrience, minerals, fiber etc.

Like @rainy said above, there are different ways of doing the same thing and some of them are easier than others.

It's like climbing a hill. You can walk up the short staircase or the long path. With either you will do the same amount of work against gravity but the amount of energy your body burns and the instantaneous stress on it is different.

The caloric intake has primacy for weight loss, the qualitative aspects have primacy for whether or not you enjoy the meal. The fact that someone doesn't like or is allergic to a particular food is beside the point.
 

Tom Slick

Kingfisher
Orthodox
@Sooth Thanks for clarifying. I like your analogy about walking up a staircase and instantaneous stress. It's an important concept for exercise in order to avoid injury and over-exertion since things don't happen evenly or gradually, but in peaks and valleys between extreme events.

All food can be broken down into it's parts and then measured in calories and nutrience, minerals, fiber etc.
You can deconstruct food or anything you like, but is this useful or successful for the purpose of dealing with health problems related to eating? What's the success rate of this approach compared to others? Hey, "The proof is in the pudding," and I don't think counting calories has shown much value since it became popular 60 years ago. In fact, food and health in the places where this happened have gotten much worse; the success rate of this approach is dismal.

If you break it down to first principals there are many more factors that go into the equation
Agree, but you seem to be emphasizing the calories and discounting the other inputs and outputs to the system that are just as relevant to the person's health, weight, etc., such as...

The caloric intake has primacy for weight loss, the qualitative aspects have primacy for whether or not you enjoy the meal. The fact that someone doesn't like or is allergic to a particular food is beside the point.
By qualitative, I don't mean the taste, but things that are mostly outside of the normal, empirical valuations of calories, vitamins, and minerals. Is being allergic to a food less important than its calories or RDA of riboflavin and IU's of vitamin D? The allergy to the food can cause so many cascading problems that affect digestion and absorption of other foods as well as overall health.

Is someone who is covered in a irresistibly itchy skin rash from an allergy to a food with few calories or other nutrients going to be able whip out their calorie counter and flip through their Jenny Craig meal book? They'll be too miserable to care about any of that.

Output should only be greater than input if your intention is to loose weight.
It sounds like the person has become a laboratory beaker where there is only one, or at best a few inputs and outputs that can be readily measured and have Boyle's Law applied to them for volume calculations. It's a simplistic viewpoint on something that is enormously complex with many more inputs and outputs than are being described by empirical data.
 

rainy

Pelican
Other Christian
For example, neither you nor the previous poster mentioned the toxic or allergenic value of food for particular individuals. There can be a food, such as milk or eggs, that have great nutritional value, but also great allergenic potential that can rise to a variety of symptom thresholds that would affect a person in a myriad of ways, including their weight, which have nothing to do with the utterly simplistic notion of caloric content.
I'd disagree caloric expenditure is simplistic. Every form of weight loss boils down to calories in vs calories expended at its foundation. Doesn't matter if it's juicing, OMAD, keto, paleo, nutrisystem, etc, at their basis they control caloric intake.

Then you compound the effects of a lower caloric intake with increased caloric expenditure.

Of course beyond that the individual has to assess various food intolerances, allergies, inflammation, empty calories, etc. I mean, obviously if someone is allergic to eggs, don't have omelettes as part of your diet.

In general, an individual will have fewer reactions to healthier food. Organic, grass fed, wild, non-processed. Also in general, healthier whole foods will have you feeling better and more satiated on a per calorie basis. That doesn't mean you can't lose weight eating only 1,500 calories of cheetos every day. You can. But you won't see me recommending it as those are garbage, processed, empty calories which do more harm than good aside from what you would see standing on the scale.
 

Sooth

Pelican
Gold Member
If calorie counting doesn't work it's because the human doing it doesn't stick to it. There are no outliers in a concentration camp with forced caloric restriction.

but is this useful or successful for the purpose of dealing with health problems related to eating? What's the success rate of this approach compared to others?

Caloric restriction doesn't inherently account for nutrience and constituencies of the food.

If one could somehow figure out the absolutely ideal diet with all the macro and micro nutrience and fiber and fats and carbs that fits them perfectly, then ate double portions, their body would store the excess energy as body fat.

If someone doesn't have the discipline to properly count calories it's unlikely they're going to properly manage their diet either. The problem is not so much the food but the relationship with it and the fruit that this bears is excess body fat. It's an insight into the persons life.

People give up on calorie counting because it's too much hassle. So my advice is "get comfortable with the discomfort of hunger". And if you can't do that it's "get comfortable with the discomfort of cardio".

There is no comfortable way to lose weight. It takes dedication and effort just like anything in life that is worth doing.
 

Tom Slick

Kingfisher
Orthodox
There are no outliers in a concentration camp with forced caloric restriction.
True, but this example is an outlier in the logic of calorie counting as much as anaphylactic shock causing death from a food allergy would be to another paradigm of food value. That said, it is really only at the extremes of the spectrum of calorie counting, such as forced starvation, that you can have any predictability for the cause and effect of calories to weight loss or gain because...
If someone doesn't have the discipline to properly count calories it's unlikely they're going to properly manage their diet either.
...if billions of instances of inability to "stick to calorie counting" have resulted in failure, doesn't it prove the method is ineffective, or at least unreliable?

If one could somehow figure out the absolutely ideal diet with all the macro and micro nutrience and fiber and fats and carbs that fits them perfectly, then ate double portions, their body would store the excess energy as body fat.
This is logical the way arithmetic is logical, but is food health as simple as arithmetic? I don't think your statement has proven to be true in actual experience.

There is no comfortable way to lose weight. It takes dedication and effort just like anything in life that is worth doing.
Amen!
 

Pointy Elbows

Pelican
Orthodox
Has anybody tried this? I'm very tempted. I'm unsure whether to drink only juice (mostly vegetable), or skip breakfast, have juice for lunch and then a real meal.

I'm ashamed to have gained over two stone (28 lbs) since lockdown and my gut disgusts me. I shouldn't be vain, but it's a health issue, too.

I'd be interested in hearing opinions - for and against.

Has anyone seen Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead?


Good thread. About 10 years ago, and during a rough period in my life, I watched this movie and immediately started the diet. Over the next 6 months I lost 50+ lbs, returned to my early 20's weight, and received some red pills along the way. Some observations, with respect to comments above, as I am no fitness guru:

- Yes, it is somewhat difficult to do a true juicing diet. It takes planning, a good juicer (not a smoothie machine, a real juicer), and a lot of discipline. I would make 3 days' worth of product at one session and keep it refrigerated. The hunger is real, for the first month or so.

- After a few days, your body kicks into a very high state of ketosis and weight seems to drop off daily. I took a pre-planned physical on about day 4. The blood tech said "you're in big time ketosis. You've got to be loosing weight." He was right. I had already lost 3-4 lbs.

- When you are hungry enough, every restaurant sign feels like it is mounted on your vehicle hood. Golden Arches seem 200' tall and you smell everything.

- After I lost about 10 lbs, I was hooked on it. This diet almost became an obsession. I now understand how some people get bulimia or whatever eating disorders exist.

- At the same time, you develop a quiet confidence. You are mastering your body and diet, proving that you have what it takes.

- You'll learn some sad things. Good friends and family will tell you "well done, keep it up." Others will say "That's enough. You don't need to do that. Are you ok (as in - Are you doing drugs of some kind)?"

- Like men, women are pigs. I went from being another invisible middle-aged guy to someone that could open conversations with women and get positive response - just because I was fit and was dressing well. Yes, they are visual creatures.

- After about 20 lbs, I felt good enough to go to the gym. That was a booster, as I was building mass as well as dropping fat. I did circuit training, lifting weights and using machines that engaged all the major muscle groups, every other day. Almost no cardio of any kind.

- After 4-6 weeks, my fat boy clothes didn't fit. I looked like a kid wearing his dad's clothes.

- You get motivators along the way. Positive response from women. Men treat you with more deference. Professional contacts bend to your will more easily. I was always the same guy, but my packaging was changing, and people responded in my favor.

- Crude note: On day 3-5, stay near a toilet. The toxin purge is real. Americans eat trash.

- Pleasant note: acid reflux and snoring disappeared. I slept much better.

- Such juicing does not generally include fruit juices. They are sugar-heavy and stop the ketosis.

- A protein shake or some nuts and berries helped on really tough days. Avoid any sugar intake once you get in ketosis.

Over the last 2 years I've also slipped a bunch and need to drop 20 lbs. I think it is time for another round.
 

Pole85

Chicken
Catholic
Check out some of the videos in YT by John Rose. Search 'John Rose Solid Food Vacation' and browse his actual channel.

He is a little eccentric but I almost get a sense of mild mad 'savant' from him. He has internalized so much health info and repeats it so easily that Im impressed even if he's not always right.

I did the 21 day fresh juice diet (80% veg 20% fruit by volume, probably different by calories). I was drinking about a gallon a day, as someone that's 6'4" 240 at the time. I lost about 25 lbs. I actually lost about 11 lbs in the first 4 days, which obviously wasn't fat, so you can imagine what I actually lost. They say you store several days past meals inside you, and I believe it after that experience.

I was weak and tired yes, but I could have had more juice to offset that.

Personally, I had a strong feeling that if I could have some ground beef every other day or so, majority of calories from juice, that would be close to the ideal diet.

I was drinking about 8+ lbs of vegetables and 2 lbs of fruit a day. Is there really any other way to get 8 pounds of vegetables worth of vitamins and enzymes a day? I doubt it.

And uncooked vitamins on top of that. It makes you wonder just how many vitamins are left in your food after you boil it or pan fry it.

Simple answer is, you WILL lose weight on veg juice because simply it's hard to get more than 1200-1500 calories. I was doing OMAD juice technically since I didn't want to clean the juicer more than 1 time a day. And I didn't want to drink juice that was sitting for a day. So I made it in the evening, and drank it over the next hour.

I didn't have any liquids other than juice for 21 days. No water. Just 1 gallon of vegetable juice, fresh.

It's easier than a water fast by a long mile. It's harder than OMAD meat only or Paleo or whatever else.

Its probably the best way to drop weight fast and still have a great amount of nutrients.

It's worth trying as a life experience in my opinion, even if there are slightly more comfortable ways to lose weight (although most other than water fasting are slower by far).
 

Viktor Zeegelaar

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
What if you stop digging into weird woo-woo new age theories and actually start doing what you know you're supposed to be doing all along? People make excuses and delve into information to avoid action. You know exactly what to do. Work out, exercise, go for walks, eat moderate, skip the bullcrap food such as M&M's, coke, fries, and stop looking into all this weird extremist stuff to distract yourself.
 

Papist

Kingfisher
Trad Catholic
Good thread. About 10 years ago, and during a rough period in my life, I watched this movie and immediately started the diet. Over the next 6 months I lost 50+ lbs, returned to my early 20's weight, and received some red pills along the way. Some observations, with respect to comments above, as I am no fitness guru:

- Yes, it is somewhat difficult to do a true juicing diet. It takes planning, a good juicer (not a smoothie machine, a real juicer), and a lot of discipline. I would make 3 days' worth of product at one session and keep it refrigerated. The hunger is real, for the first month or so.

- After a few days, your body kicks into a very high state of ketosis and weight seems to drop off daily. I took a pre-planned physical on about day 4. The blood tech said "you're in big time ketosis. You've got to be loosing weight." He was right. I had already lost 3-4 lbs.

- When you are hungry enough, every restaurant sign feels like it is mounted on your vehicle hood. Golden Arches seem 200' tall and you smell everything.

- After I lost about 10 lbs, I was hooked on it. This diet almost became an obsession. I now understand how some people get bulimia or whatever eating disorders exist.

- At the same time, you develop a quiet confidence. You are mastering your body and diet, proving that you have what it takes.

- You'll learn some sad things. Good friends and family will tell you "well done, keep it up." Others will say "That's enough. You don't need to do that. Are you ok (as in - Are you doing drugs of some kind)?"

- Like men, women are pigs. I went from being another invisible middle-aged guy to someone that could open conversations with women and get positive response - just because I was fit and was dressing well. Yes, they are visual creatures.

- After about 20 lbs, I felt good enough to go to the gym. That was a booster, as I was building mass as well as dropping fat. I did circuit training, lifting weights and using machines that engaged all the major muscle groups, every other day. Almost no cardio of any kind.

- After 4-6 weeks, my fat boy clothes didn't fit. I looked like a kid wearing his dad's clothes.

- You get motivators along the way. Positive response from women. Men treat you with more deference. Professional contacts bend to your will more easily. I was always the same guy, but my packaging was changing, and people responded in my favor.

- Crude note: On day 3-5, stay near a toilet. The toxin purge is real. Americans eat trash.

- Pleasant note: acid reflux and snoring disappeared. I slept much better.

- Such juicing does not generally include fruit juices. They are sugar-heavy and stop the ketosis.

- A protein shake or some nuts and berries helped on really tough days. Avoid any sugar intake once you get in ketosis.

Over the last 2 years I've also slipped a bunch and need to drop 20 lbs. I think it is time for another round.

Check out some of the videos in YT by John Rose. Search 'John Rose Solid Food Vacation' and browse his actual channel.

He is a little eccentric but I almost get a sense of mild mad 'savant' from him. He has internalized so much health info and repeats it so easily that Im impressed even if he's not always right.

I did the 21 day fresh juice diet (80% veg 20% fruit by volume, probably different by calories). I was drinking about a gallon a day, as someone that's 6'4" 240 at the time. I lost about 25 lbs. I actually lost about 11 lbs in the first 4 days, which obviously wasn't fat, so you can imagine what I actually lost. They say you store several days past meals inside you, and I believe it after that experience.

I was weak and tired yes, but I could have had more juice to offset that.

Personally, I had a strong feeling that if I could have some ground beef every other day or so, majority of calories from juice, that would be close to the ideal diet.

I was drinking about 8+ lbs of vegetables and 2 lbs of fruit a day. Is there really any other way to get 8 pounds of vegetables worth of vitamins and enzymes a day? I doubt it.

And uncooked vitamins on top of that. It makes you wonder just how many vitamins are left in your food after you boil it or pan fry it.

Simple answer is, you WILL lose weight on veg juice because simply it's hard to get more than 1200-1500 calories. I was doing OMAD juice technically since I didn't want to clean the juicer more than 1 time a day. And I didn't want to drink juice that was sitting for a day. So I made it in the evening, and drank it over the next hour.

I didn't have any liquids other than juice for 21 days. No water. Just 1 gallon of vegetable juice, fresh.

It's easier than a water fast by a long mile. It's harder than OMAD meat only or Paleo or whatever else.

Its probably the best way to drop weight fast and still have a great amount of nutrients.

It's worth trying as a life experience in my opinion, even if there are slightly more comfortable ways to lose weight (although most other than water fasting are slower by far).


Great posts, guys! Very inspiring.

I have just ordered 35 bottles of (mostly veg) juice. I have decided that I will:

- skip breakfast, so I'll be fasting for about 16 hours.
- one bottle of juice (500 ml) for my lunch.
- substantial, low carb meal late in the day

I have discovered a kettle bell programme, that is pretty intense and I will cycle and do some walking too (I don't live in the most salubrious of areas, so it's not a great option).

I will let you know how I get on. If I'm not losing enough weight, I will perhaps do a proper juice fast at weekends. I work in an environment where I cannot just nip to the toilet whenever, unfortunately, so hoping this doesn't cause the symptoms described above. Maybe I will take a week's holiday and really detox.

Anyone see any issues with this?
 
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