kaotic's gym self assesment and progress thread

[kavi]

Steelex program is good and rather similar to what I posted in terms of having just a two day split.

I think that Day B is a lot more intense than Day A because you are doing both squats and deadlifts on that day. Day A seems a little too light.

Dumbell press normally is done before shoulder press because it is a heavier exercise that also hits the shoulders. I would also put in more back thickness exercises like bent over rows.

You can put on more muscle on the chest than shoulders and more on back thickness than back width. The former muscles are stronger and have more potential to give you gains. You can move more weight on the bench press vs shoulder press and more on bent over row vs lat pull down.

Anyways steelex has given you a good routine and I am just adding my opinion to an interesting thread. He may have tailored those things to your specific situation but my opinion is.more general.

 

[Steelex]

Its squats and rack pulls. The rack pulls are not nearly as hard on the CNS or the spinal erectors as a conventional deadlift, but still have many of the same benefits.

The conventional deadlift is a great exercise but really you have to give it the respect it deserves as far as how bad it can fuck you. I'd rather a guy did rack pulls and lowered his chance of injury by a lot.

 

[komatiite]

Steelex program is good and rather similar to what I posted in terms of having just a two day split.

The only issue I have with it is that Day B is a lot more intense than Day A because you are doing both squats and deadlifts on that day.

It's been a few years since I had been reading about this topic online but I dont remember anyone ever recomending that.

It could work well for you though especially given you may not want to go hard on those exercises due to your situation.

I was thinking that too.ive never incorporated rack pulls into a routine consistently, now I'm intrigued. Are they in the Steelex program because they are just easier to recover from than Full Deads in this high volume routine, or are they specifically tailored due to Kaotics low back issues?

 

[kavi]

Yeah thats cool. Personally I would focus on less intense deadlifting ( more reps less weight) but I that is just a personal preferance.

Also, you need strong spinal erector muscles for good squats. I am not sure it makes sense to have isolated spinal erectors with rack pulls and then go into squats. Those could be some uncomfortable squats.

It is the same issue as doing shoulder press before bench press.

 

[heavy]

[attachment=35552]
This was my Stoppani spreadsheet. I had one for Arnold's workout as well. Nowadays I just make sure I get bench, squat, and shoulders in (not deadlift, but heavy dumbbells). And then accessory lifts. Honestly between chest/back day, shoulder/arm day, and leg day, I never lift longer than 45 minutes.

I basically stick to high weights low reps. Sometimes rep out.

Whatever works though. My brother is one of the stronger guys in my state (I've seen him finish 1st in squat competition). He's huge (in an unhealthy, powerlifter way). But I can tell you, when I mentioned I started lifting and was doing a plan (Arnold or Stoppani), these were his comments. This is a guy who's been in to lifting since the mid-90s...

(slightly annoyed tone) "Just go in and lift. It's not complicated. Just go lift weights. You don't need a fancy plan. Lift heavy weights. All these guys with their jug of water and plans and notes and stuff. It's not fancy." (summary, not quote)

And that's my take on it too. I stuck with a plans for a few months, but nowadays I just make sure I do the foundations (bench, squat, shoulders (not deadlift because of back)) regularly and some accessory lifts, but I'm also focusing on BJJ now.

You're looking for something more, which is fine too. My point is, figure out what works for you, and do it.

I'm basically your size, mesomorph, but would have to creatine and maybe more to put on any weight.

 

[Steelex]

Don't get me wrong I love deads. They are great for building muscle and strength. But here is a detailed explanation of why I find them to be detrimental for some people.

1. Deads throw a wrench into your other programming. A heavy deadlift workout can really cut into your recovery for everything else, especially your legs and back.

2. As you get up there in weight with deadlifts (400+) your form has to be on point. Sloppy form will get you injured, and then the rest of your training is going to be messed up for a few weeks as you recover from this.

3. You really need to go into a deadlift workout in optimal conditions. That means well rested, fed, hydrated, NOT HYPED UP ON STIMS. Anything that could cause an error in your muscle contraction can potentially get you hurt. I tend to work out in the evening after working a 10-12 hour day, and I know that being somewhat fatigued can cause your body to have issues with stabilizing the spine. I don't even recommend doing deads in a prolonged caloric deficit, because the CNS will operate just a little harder than the weakened muscles can handle. I think this problem is exacerbated by strong stimulants.

4. You can get 80% of the benefits of deads with heavy rack pulls, while keeping the risk factor much lower. I guarantee you that if you get your rack pull into the 6's, you'll be able to deadlift in the 5's with just a few weeks of practice. This is assuming you're also squatting.

5. It all comes down to the risk to benefit ratio. I've just seen too many lifters (even good, knowledgeable ones with good form), make a simple mistake like foot placement, not bracing against the belt, ect... And then tweak their lower back and end up on permanent arm day for 3 weeks. The idea behind my training is to streamline your gains and bypass the speed bumps.

 

[Steelex]

As far as programming the rack pull and the squat together, it really doesn't impact it that much. It's not like programming the squat and the deadlift together, where one would prevent you from going all out on the other. I know after hitting 2 sets of 8 and then a Widowmaker that leaves me seeing stars on the floor sucking in more air than a supercharged hellcat, conventional deadlifts are out of the question.

 

[kaotic]

I downloaded the "Strong" app and added all those workouts.

Created 2 routines: "A Day" and "B Day"

Added all the workouts with initial weights.

A Day (upper body)
Overhead dumbbell press 2 sets 8-13 reps
Wide grip rack chins (with straps) 3 sets 8-13 reps
Dumbbell bench press 3 sets 11-15 reps
Preacher curls 2 sets 5-10 reps
Lateral raises 3 sets 11-15 reps
Kroc dumbell rows 2 sets 25-40 reps

B day (legs, core)
Rack pull deadlifts with a shrug (pull the bar up over your junk and hold it for 5 seconds at the top)
3 sets 5-8 reps
Bb squats 2 sets 6-10 reps, 1 set 18-20 reps using 60% of what you used on your first two sets.
3 sets of planks held for 1-2 minutes.


Now my question is:

Should I stick to the same weights the sets? Or up the weight after the 1st set and lower the reps (within the given rep range).


I usually up the weight after every set, BUT, since I'm doing split days, I'll be doing the workouts more frequently, so I guess it would make sense to stick to one weight for 1 day and see if I can hit the far end of the rep range the next, if so, then up the weight.

 

[redbeard]

Why wide grip rack chins vs. traditional chins, or BB rows if the emphasis is lats?

 

[Steelex]

Upping the weight after each set is not the best way to go. If you were able to increase the weight each set, it means you didn't get very close to failure on that set, and therefore didn't achieve as much damage in that set as possible.

You want to up the weight when all your sets are in the high end of the rep range. So let's say the rep range was 3 sets of 11-15, and you got 15-12-8. You don't move up. But let's say you got 15-15-14, you move up weight the next workout because obviously the first two sets you aced and you can stand to add some more weight on the bar.

You gotta use a little common sense here, but the question in your mind should be "Will it benefit me more to master the weight I'm at, or go up in weight so I can get one step closer to my ultimate goal (being a goddamn human fork lift)".

 

[Steelex]

The rack chins do a great job of developing lat width because they take away a lot of your ability to cheat, and help you focus more on contracting your back muscles. I do them with a pause at the top and a 3 second negative. For many people it's hard to build that mind to muscle connection with their lats, so they're never able to stress the lats as much as they need to grow.

I recommend doing the rack chins with grip straps. I know everyone says "well then you're not building your grip". They have a point. However, the point of the rack chin is to mentally focus on the contraction of the lats, and not be thinking about your grip at all.

The rack chins with the Kroc rows do a lot to put width and thickness on the lats. I didn't have thick lats till I was getting 30+ reps with a 120lb DB. Now I use big zip ties to attach another dumbell to the 120 since that's as high as my gym has them

 

[S3K2]

Kaotic - are you open to drugs at all? Or trying to stay 100% natty? I noticed you were having sleep issues, ipamorelin + mod grf-1 would most def. help with any sleep issues. I don't think your no where near ready for gear but some peptides (the ones I mentioned) will def. help you reach your goals in the long term. Both sleep and physique. I've been taking peps for 2 years now, so speaking from experience.

 

[kaotic]

Upping the weight after each set is not the best way to go. If you were able to increase the weight each set, it means you didn't get very close to failure on that set, and therefore didn't achieve as much damage in that set as possible.

You want to up the weight when all your sets are in the high end of the rep range. So let's say the rep range was 3 sets of 11-15, and you got 15-12-8. You don't move up. But let's say you got 15-15-14, you move up weight the next workout because obviously the first two sets you aced and you can stand to add some more weight on the bar.

You gotta use a little common sense here, but the question in your mind should be "Will it benefit me more to master the weight I'm at, or go up in weight so I can get one step closer to my ultimate goal (being a goddamn human fork lift)".

Yeah makes sense, I reset the weights I'd probably hit on my log, I'll just start somewhere comfortable and see how far my reps go. I'll follow that system if I ace the first 2 sets and up it.

I recommend doing the rack chins with grip straps. I know everyone says "well then you're not building your grip". They have a point. However, the point of the rack chin is to mentally focus on the contraction of the lats, and not be thinking about your grip at all.

The rack chins with the Kroc rows do a lot to put width and thickness on the lats. I didn't have thick lats till I was getting 30+ reps with a 120lb DB. Now I use big zip ties to attach another dumbell to the 120 since that's as high as my gym has them

I forgot to grab wrist wraps, I'll have to get those.

Jesus 120 + ? That's YUGE !

:mindblown3:

Kaotic - are you open to drugs at all? Or trying to stay 100% natty? I noticed you were having sleep issues, ipamorelin + mod grf-1 would most def. help with any sleep issues. I don't think your no where near ready for gear but some peptides (the ones I mentioned) will def. help you reach your goals in the long term. Both sleep and physique. I've been taking peps for 2 years now, so speaking from experience.

I'm staying natty for now.

It's not that I have issues sleeping, it's that I just dick around at home after the gym OR I'm on a date, with a plate, or with my main girl.

Basically I need to have more me time to take a break and sleep.

 

[kaotic]

Finished Day A

Overhead dumbbell press 2 sets 8-13 reps (50 LB Dumbbells, maxed on reps, up weight)
Wide grip rack chins (with straps) 3 sets 8-13 reps (Body weight, need straps, did feel more isolated, might add 10LB's weight)
Dumbbell bench press 3 sets 11-15 reps (50 LB Dumbbells, maxed on reps, up weight)
Preacher curls 2 sets 5-10 reps (45 LB barbell, maxed on reps, up weight)
Lateral raises 3 sets 11-15 reps (15 LB Dumbbells, maxed on reps, up weight)
Kroc dumbell rows 2 sets 25-40 reps (30 LB Dumbbells, maxed on reps, up weight)

I didn't really warm up and just hopped into the sets, I definitely felt fatigue in the last few reps of the last sets.

The wide grip rack chin was pretty cool actually, it felt a lot more isolated, Steelex you're right about the straps will help you focus more on your back.

The Croc rows I did have some issues with, I noticed my stance made my lower back a little tight, I definitely was gassed after doing what surmounted to 40 reps per each Lat which totaled 160 reps.

Am I supposed to be doing 20 for reach lat for a total of 40 per set ?

The good news is I finished my workout in 50 minutes, which was crazy.

 

[Steelex]

The Kroc rows is two sets. So that's two sets for each side. That's why they're at the end of the workout. Go watch the video of Matt Kroc doing them. You use a little bit of body movement in the exercise, and then get a nice deep stretch at the bottom of it.

160 reps would be correct, if you're on the high end of the range. There is a huge benefit to your forearms, back and biceps. By the time you're getting 80 lbs for 40 reps you will notice your back has a thicker look, and your grip will be insane.

Try jumping up to 50 lbs for the Kroc rows. That should have you at the near bottom of the rep range on the last set.

I want you to try something. Make a serving of cream of rice, and mix it with two tablespoons of peanut butter and half a scoop of whey. Eat this like 60 mins prior to your workout. You'll have plenty of energy throughout your lifts.

If you want to recover a bit faster, sip a shake with some dextrose and whey isolate during your workout. If you want to take it a step further, use hydrolyzed casein and branched cyclic dextrins intra workout. It's more expensive but will do a great job in aiding your recovery.

The faster you repeat and go heavier, the faster you grow. Shorten the time between growth cycles. You're only growing for like 3 days after the workout.

 

[redbeard]

Shoutout to Steelix!

I avoided rack pulls because they would wreck my low back. I was using regular width grip and low reps. I switched to wide grip and did 3x12 today....jeeesh! All aboard the gains train.

 

[kaotic]

Finished B day (legs, core)

I'll be straight up honest, it was rough, my lower back was NOT happy (details after stats)

-Rack pull deadlifts with a shrug (pull the bar up over your junk and hold it for 5 seconds at the top) 3 sets 5-8 reps (185 completed all 3 sets of 8)

I REALLY need to work on my form, I felt some activation of my glutes but not much of hamstrings.

The rails on the squat rack were at the lowest possible, basically middle of my knees. Had my back straight, and pulled right up and back, I was struggling to move from pulling the bar up to do shrugs (Maybe I need to go to lighter weight and work on form)

My lower back got pretty tight after that.


-Bb squats 2 sets 6-10 reps, 1 set 18-20 reps using 60% of what you used on your first two sets. (Did 2 sets of 185 then did 135 for the 3rd set)


Legs felt a little bit tired and my back still go pretty tight, but was able to manage the set.

I ended up doing 3 sets of leg extensions and hamstring curls to make up for the weak showing.

-3 sets of planks held for 1-2 minutes. (Got to a minute for all 3 sets, this wiped me pretty good, I remember why I hated these)


What about lower back stretches ? Can anyone point me in the right direction ?

 

[Balkan]

I've never had lower back issues but I do prophylactically stretch/strengthen it whenever I do heavy lower body compounds. Here are my favorite 3.

1) Hanging out at bottom rep range of hyperextension. I gyrate around and search for kinks similar to when foam-rolling. Do some bodyweight reps with very slow negatives. Play around with the motion until you find your soft spots.
2) Lie on your back and bring your legs over your head so your toes touch the ground. Ideally, your knees touch the ground too. It looks like you're giving yourself a bj.
3) Reverse hyper on yoga ball. Click here for picture.

Hopefully some other guys will drop in with their go to stretches/rehab/prehab exercises. If any of the above was confusing, let me know and I can clarify.

Edit: A point I was trying to make but couldn't figure out how to word was that some of the best stretches are not static stretches but very conscious, often slow, movements through actual exercises that target that bodypart.

 

[Steelex]

Kaotic,

As far as your low back pain goes, that's difficult. Do you sit a lot every day? That can cause a tightening of the hip flexors, which causes a pull of the lower back known as anterior pelvic tilt.

Check this link... It's a great stretch to relieve anterior tilt pain.

rAKeRrXjzQI

Also, I recommend a lifting belt. Learn to use it properly.

Don't add the leg extensions or ham curls. That's just cutting into your recovery time. The key is to focus on adding weight to the squat.

When you're squatting 405 for 20 your legs will be fucking big. Get there as soon as possible. Avoid the mentality of throwing more exercises into the mix, unless you really think the squats are not stimulating your legs.

 

[kaotic]

Kaotic,

As far as your low back pain goes, that's difficult. Do you sit a lot every day? That can cause a tightening of the hip flexors, which causes a pull of the lower back known as anterior pelvic tilt.

Check this link... It's a great stretch to relieve anterior tilt pain.

rAKeRrXjzQI

Also, I recommend a lifting belt. Learn to use it properly.

Don't add the leg extensions or ham curls. That's just cutting into your recovery time. The key is to focus on adding weight to the squat.

When you're squatting 405 for 20 your legs will be fucking big. Get there as soon as possible. Avoid the mentality of throwing more exercises into the mix, unless you really think the squats are not stimulating your legs.

Yeah I sit sit in a chair most of the day unfortunately. Not to mention traffic in the AM.

I woke up this morning to some lower back pain for sure, it REALLY bugs me I'd say 5/10 on the pain scale. I notice most the pain is one left lower side of where my back and hip come together.

If I moved in my seat I had some lower back pain. I'll do those stretches if I can, I have a quarter size foam roller in my car.

I found some in chair stretches I can do also, but this really fucking bugs man - I'm also afraid to cause more pain further.

I'm gonna focus on stretching and roll out before todays workout.