Keto diet experiences?

MikeS said:
ChefAllDay said:
FullThrottleTX said:
Just do Paleo.
Same diet as Keto but you can eat more fruits and veggies and don't have to count calories.
There isn't a reason to deplete your calories/carbs when you cut the bad shit out.

Paleo is great for basic health, but if you are trying to lose lbs, you need the science behind keto. I have done both, and keto is by far superior for cutting

If you're trying to lose weight all you need is to be in a caloric deficit. You could live on ice cream and burgers and lose weight if you keep below your daily caloric needs - though it certainly wouldn't be a particularly healthy diet.

I have yet to see any compelling, science backed evidence that all these fad diets - new or old - do much more than, for many people, making it easier to stay in that needed caloric deficit (some very slight variations in metabolism, insulin related fat storage mechanisms etc. might come into play, but vastly less impactful than the simple caloric deficit).
But that of course is in itself valuable enough to recommend some of healthier fad diets. I'm not convinced keto qualifies as healthy, certainly not long-term, though paleo probably does.

I am not convinced the caloric deficit theory is 100% correct. Certainly calories relate to weight loss, however, it is much more complex. Insulin release certainly has an effect which is why people who drink diet sodas do not lose weight (artificial sweeteners still cause insulin release). Intermittent fasting also seems to have an effect on weight loss irrespective of caloric intake. In short, the whole thing is very complex.
 
MikeS said:
If you're trying to lose weight all you need is to be in a caloric deficit. You could live on ice cream and burgers and lose weight if you keep below your daily caloric needs - though it certainly wouldn't be a particularly healthy diet.

This hasn't been my experience. A few years ago I was able to lose weight by maintaining a caloric deficit, but that's no longer the case. Earlier this year I got serious about tracking my macros and after several months realized how much I ate had absolutely no impact on my body composition. I went as high as 3500kcal/day and as low as 1800kcal/day for weeks at a time with no significant change in waist measurement.

In May I read Why We Get Fat by Gary Taubes and decided to try a low carb diet. I consume more calories on a typical day now than when I was trying to lose weight by calorie restriction, and I've lost 2.75" off my waist in the first seven weeks.

Different foods have different effects on someone's body composition, and hormones play a huge role. Just as overeating doesn't really explain a child's growth in height, it doesn't really explain why we get fat either. There's a great deal more to it than eating less calories.

MikeS said:
I have yet to see any compelling, science backed evidence that all these fad diets - new or old - do much more than, for many people, making it easier to stay in that needed caloric deficit (some very slight variations in metabolism, insulin related fat storage mechanisms etc. might come into play, but vastly less impactful than the simple caloric deficit).
But that of course is in itself valuable enough to recommend some of healthier fad diets. I'm not convinced keto qualifies as healthy, certainly not long-term, though paleo probably does.

Low carbohydrate dieting - the sort that someone does on a keto diet - is pretty old to be called a fad at this point. Tolstoy mentions it in Anna Karenina, so people have been doing it intentionally since at least the 19th century. Not to mention the Alaskans who did it unintentionally until the Russians arrived and got them fat.
 
ChefAllDay said:
TravelingBodybuilder said:
I am not anti keto nor pro keto just stating the facts for some bs i read in this thread about keto making you burn fat faster....

Yes, it's all BS. You are clearly the smartest one in the room.

That said, I am now down 46lbs (9 inched off the waist), and I am stronger with more energy than I had at 30 (48 now). Still at 22% bodyfat (down from around 33) so I have another 6 or 7% to go.

Not sure how it happened if Keto is BS that doesn't work.

lmfao.... I never said keto doesnt work. Why would it not work if you are in a calorie defict? ANY diet works if you are in a calorie defict.

I just said keto isnt more effective than any other dieting method fatloss wise. Keto works, lots of things work. But to say keto burns more fat than other diets at a faster rate is wrong. Iv already posted studies that show keto doesnt increase fat burning more than any other diet.

If you are in a caloire defict you will lose weight regardless of what you are eating. So of course Keto will allow you to lose weight.

Calories in vs calories out. And you are stronger and have more energy is illrevalent. Because you are working now, compared to when you didnt work? you workout and you are stronger than you were at 30 when you didnt work out and you are surprised?


I think keto has benefits for appetite reasons in some people. So if it works for you then i approve of keto. But thinking you will lose more fat at a faster rate on keto than any other diet is bs as my first post said and as my studies that i posted.

But do you my friend. Just my 2 cents...
 
It's still more than cals in, cals out. The body is not that simple. Insulin levels, hormones and blood sugars all play a major role. Eating 50 cals of fat is going to have different effects from eating 50 grams of carbs, no question about it. Take a blood sugar or insulin reading after eating both and tell me otherwise.
 
Of course. A calorie isnt just a calorie. You could cut on snickers and whey protein shakes as the article i posted that showed the person losing weight on a shit diet like that. Or you can cut on whole foods. diet 1 with snickers and protein shakes will lose strength due to a shitty diet and low bio availability of protein(different proteins have different bio availability). Not to mention the affects of testosterone levels with different fats. The list goes on and on. A calorie isnt a calorie. I never said it was.

but in terms of fat loss a calorie is a calorie..(300 calories below your maintenance with diet 1 or 2 will still make you lose the same amount of fat).. Unless you are in single digit bodyfat percentage(low bodyfat)... Then carbs do play a role, and high carb days will help with the leptin levels and can help with metabolism
 

Hell_Is_Like_Newark

Kingfisher
Gold Member
The "studies" that I read debunking Keto are often seems to be setup to fail. My favorite are the ones that limit the diet time to 2 weeks. Hell, it took me 6 weeks just to get acclimated to the diet. Vegan groups seems to be behind a lot of these studies.

There is (slowly) however, real clinical trials showing what keto people have already known. This for example:



Long-Term Effects of a Novel Continuous Remote Care Intervention Including Nutritional Ketosis for the Management of Type 2 Diabetes: A 2-Year Non-randomized Clinical Trial
Shaminie J. Athinarayanan1, Rebecca N. Adams1, Sarah J. Hallberg1,2, Amy L. McKenzie1, Nasir H. Bhanpuri1, Wayne W. Campbell3, Jeff S. Volek1,4, Stephen D. Phinney1 and James P. McCarter5*

1Virta Health Corp, San Francisco, CA, United States
2Indiana University Health Arnett, Lafayette, IN, United States
3Department of Nutrition Science, Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN, United States
4Department of Human Sciences, The Ohio State University, Columbus, OH, United States
5Department of Genetics, Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis, MO, United States


Purpose: Studies on long-term sustainability of low-carbohydrate approaches to treat diabetes are limited. We previously reported the effectiveness of a novel digitally-monitored continuous care intervention (CCI) including nutritional ketosis in improving weight, glycemic outcomes, lipid, and liver marker changes at 1 year. Here, we assess the effects of the CCI at 2 years.

Materials and methods: An open label, non-randomized, controlled study with 262 and 87 participants with T2D were enrolled in the CCI and usual care (UC) groups, respectively. Primary outcomes were retention, glycemic control, and weight changes at 2 years. Secondary outcomes included changes in body composition, liver, cardiovascular, kidney, thyroid and inflammatory markers, diabetes medication use and disease status.

Results: Reductions from baseline to 2 years in the CCI group resulting from intent-to-treat analyses included: HbA1c, fasting glucose, fasting insulin, weight, systolic blood pressure, diastolic blood pressure, triglycerides, and liver alanine transaminase, and HDL-C increased. Spine bone mineral density in the CCI group was unchanged. Use of any glycemic control medication (excluding metformin) among CCI participants declined (from 55.7 to 26.8%) including insulin (-62%) and sulfonylureas (-100%). The UC group had no changes in these parameters (except uric acid and anion gap) or diabetes medication use. There was also resolution of diabetes (reversal, 53.5%; remission, 17.6%) in the CCI group but not in UC. All the reported improvements had p < 0.00012.

Conclusion: The CCI group sustained long-term beneficial effects on multiple clinical markers of diabetes and cardiometabolic health at 2 years while utilizing less medication. The intervention was also effective in the resolution of diabetes and visceral obesity with no adverse effect on bone health.

Clinical Trial Registration: Clinicaltrials.gov NCT02519309

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fendo.2019.00348/full



One of my wife's friends is a medical doctor and medical researcher. His research done in the USA into the dietary effects of fish oil to eggs eventually led him to Keto. When he returned to his home country, he went back into medical practice, specializing in the treatment of obesity / diabetics (big issues there due in part to the high consumption of white rice). His treatment uses the Ketogenic diet albeit not a strict as the hardcore ketoers who limit carb intake to 20 grams net daily or less.

His success at reversing diabetes and reducing weight had made him famous.
 

Hell_Is_Like_Newark

Kingfisher
Gold Member
On the subject of "not all calories are the same": There are a number of people who have done experiments over massively over-eating on a high fat / low carb diet (5k+ kcal /day). None of these are what you would call a 'clinical trial', but they are interesting none the least.

This is one of the better documented ones:

What happens if you “overeat” on an LCHF diet? It’s a common question and here’s one possible answer.

The young man Sam Feltham has done a three-week experiment, where he’s been eating enormous amounts of LCHF-food. On average 5794 calories daily of which “only” 10% as carbohydrates (menu).

According to over-simplified calorie counting, energy expenditure isn’t affected by what you eat. All excess calories you eat will then lead to weight gain. If this were true Feltham would have gained 16.5 lbs (7.5 kg) during the three weeks, but in reality he only gained 3.5 lbs (1.7 kg).


https://www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet

An unintended animal test involving pigs has similar results. During WWII, the US supply of coconut oil got cut off, compliments of the Imperial Japanese occupation of the Philippines (still a US colony at the time). The US switch over to using seed and vegetable oils as a result. After the war, the US government tried to help the nascent independent Philippines economically by importing coconut oil, but this time feeding it to pigs. Since it was a calorie dense food, the pigs should get fatter quicker.

To the pig farmers horror, the pigs lost weight, no matter how much coconut oil was fed to them.
 

Hell_Is_Like_Newark

Kingfisher
Gold Member
ChefAllDay said:
That said, I am now down 46lbs (9 inched off the waist), and I am stronger with more energy than I had at 30 (48 now). Still at 22% bodyfat (down from around 33) so I have another 6 or 7% to go.

Not sure how it happened if Keto is BS that doesn't work.

I am about your age (49). Down 47 lbs so far... 10 more to go to hit my goal of 15% body fat (going to re-check by having a DEXA scan).

Added bonus: My chronic migraines that I have had since age 14 are gone.
 
Hell_Is_Like_Newark said:
The "studies" that I read debunking Keto are often seems to be setup to fail. My favorite are the ones that limit the diet time to 2 weeks. Hell, it took me 6 weeks just to get acclimated to the diet. Vegan groups seems to be behind a lot of these studies.

There is (slowly) however, real clinical trials showing what keto people have already known. This for example:



Long-Term Effects of a Novel Continuous Remote Care Intervention Including Nutritional Ketosis for the Management of Type 2 Diabetes: A 2-Year Non-randomized Clinical Trial
Shaminie J. Athinarayanan1, Rebecca N. Adams1, Sarah J. Hallberg1,2, Amy L. McKenzie1, Nasir H. Bhanpuri1, Wayne W. Campbell3, Jeff S. Volek1,4, Stephen D. Phinney1 and James P. McCarter5*

1Virta Health Corp, San Francisco, CA, United States
2Indiana University Health Arnett, Lafayette, IN, United States
3Department of Nutrition Science, Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN, United States
4Department of Human Sciences, The Ohio State University, Columbus, OH, United States
5Department of Genetics, Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis, MO, United States


Purpose: Studies on long-term sustainability of low-carbohydrate approaches to treat diabetes are limited. We previously reported the effectiveness of a novel digitally-monitored continuous care intervention (CCI) including nutritional ketosis in improving weight, glycemic outcomes, lipid, and liver marker changes at 1 year. Here, we assess the effects of the CCI at 2 years.

Materials and methods: An open label, non-randomized, controlled study with 262 and 87 participants with T2D were enrolled in the CCI and usual care (UC) groups, respectively. Primary outcomes were retention, glycemic control, and weight changes at 2 years. Secondary outcomes included changes in body composition, liver, cardiovascular, kidney, thyroid and inflammatory markers, diabetes medication use and disease status.

Results: Reductions from baseline to 2 years in the CCI group resulting from intent-to-treat analyses included: HbA1c, fasting glucose, fasting insulin, weight, systolic blood pressure, diastolic blood pressure, triglycerides, and liver alanine transaminase, and HDL-C increased. Spine bone mineral density in the CCI group was unchanged. Use of any glycemic control medication (excluding metformin) among CCI participants declined (from 55.7 to 26.8%) including insulin (-62%) and sulfonylureas (-100%). The UC group had no changes in these parameters (except uric acid and anion gap) or diabetes medication use. There was also resolution of diabetes (reversal, 53.5%; remission, 17.6%) in the CCI group but not in UC. All the reported improvements had p < 0.00012.

Conclusion: The CCI group sustained long-term beneficial effects on multiple clinical markers of diabetes and cardiometabolic health at 2 years while utilizing less medication. The intervention was also effective in the resolution of diabetes and visceral obesity with no adverse effect on bone health.

Clinical Trial Registration: Clinicaltrials.gov NCT02519309

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fendo.2019.00348/full



One of my wife's friends is a medical doctor and medical researcher. His research done in the USA into the dietary effects of fish oil to eggs eventually led him to Keto. When he returned to his home country, he went back into medical practice, specializing in the treatment of obesity / diabetics (big issues there due in part to the high consumption of white rice). His treatment uses the Ketogenic diet albeit not a strict as the hardcore ketoers who limit carb intake to 20 grams net daily or less.

His success at reversing diabetes and reducing weight had made him famous.

lol time limit of 2 weeks... who ever posted a study of being 2 weeks?

Hell_Is_Like_Newark said:
On the subject of "not all calories are the same": There are a number of people who have done experiments over massively over-eating on a high fat / low carb diet (5k+ kcal /day). None of these are what you would call a 'clinical trial', but they are interesting none the least.

This is one of the better documented ones:

What happens if you “overeat” on an LCHF diet? It’s a common question and here’s one possible answer.

The young man Sam Feltham has done a three-week experiment, where he’s been eating enormous amounts of LCHF-food. On average 5794 calories daily of which “only” 10% as carbohydrates (menu).

According to over-simplified calorie counting, energy expenditure isn’t affected by what you eat. All excess calories you eat will then lead to weight gain. If this were true Feltham would have gained 16.5 lbs (7.5 kg) during the three weeks, but in reality he only gained 3.5 lbs (1.7 kg).


https://www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet

An unintended animal test involving pigs has similar results. During WWII, the US supply of coconut oil got cut off, compliments of the Imperial Japanese occupation of the Philippines (still a US colony at the time). The US switch over to using seed and vegetable oils as a result. After the war, the US government tried to help the nascent independent Philippines economically by importing coconut oil, but this time feeding it to pigs. Since it was a calorie dense food, the pigs should get fatter quicker.

To the pig farmers horror, the pigs lost weight, no matter how much coconut oil was fed to them.

i dont see any test results of bodyfats. those links dont show anything ? the article shows that if you overeat by 1500 calories you would gain 15 pounds of fat. but it shows he only gained 3 pounds ? Clearly he wasnt eating what he said he was eating... try to over eat on low carbs and watch yourself get fat.... to debunk the article yourself.

Carbs hold water.

I can gain 15-20 pounds of water by having a high carb meal if i am depleted. And i will piss it out within 10 days. its just water retention not actual fat gain. same if you are cutting. if you go from bulking to carbless and calorie defict you gain lose 20 pounds in a week. (not real fat loss, just losing water weight since carbs hold water)
---

lastly. you mention 2 weeks all the studies show?

?
"Comparison of Weight-Loss Diets with Different Compositions of Fat, Protein, and Carbohydrates" Frank M. Sacks, M.D., et al. N Engl J Med 2009; 360:859-873February 26, 2009

Set-up:
Group one: 15f/65c/20f
Group two: 25p/55c/20f
Group three: 15p/45c/40f
Group four: 25p/35c/40f

Out of the 811 people, 645 completed the entire two years, and the results showed, "Reduced-calorie diets result in clinically meaningful weight loss regardless of which macronutrients they emphasize."

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804748


there is not a single study to support keto being superior.
because none exist.
 
TravelingBodybuilder said:
Set-up:
Group one: 15p/65c/20f
Group two: 25p/55c/20f
Group three: 15p/45c/40f
Group four: 25p/35c/40f

None of these numbers are close to the keto standard. Carbs should be below 10%, Fats should be 70 - 80%, and protein should be the rest. That's why I don't take these studies seriously. Besides that, you really can't argue with the results people are getting. Everyone has been sharing how nothing else compares to the results of keto.

At the end of the day, what do people want? They want results and this diet delivers in spades. Most that go keto, normally can't imagine going back, for good reason. Get some skin in the game and try it, instead of relying on studies to tell you what works and what doesn't. Most are funded by people who want you to buy their shit anyways.

But if its studies you want:
Keto Extends Life
Keto Starves Cancer Cells of Glucose
Massive Weight Loss, Great Cholesterol Levels, Low Blood Sugar Levels (Which means you won't die from a heart attack or diabetes).
 

tugofpeace

 
Banned
There's no major difference between keto and a regular diet in terms of results.

The only difference is in terms of how each diet makes you feel, and how well you adhere to it. I've done both.
 

Kid Twist

 
Banned
^ Another reason why one should also get used to time restricted eating to maximize gainz (diet gainz) lol.

As I get older, I just don't have the energy to go as much or harder in the gym, I just want to maintain, not hurt joints, and feel good after playing ball or stairs, etc. That means I have to do IF and be smarter/more disciplined than before.

I do this even with drinking a lot in certain sittings, more than I should given how shitty one's sleep is when they drink booze. And how good I feel with proper rest the two days after the hangover. Just so you all don't have a doubt.
 

Aizen

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Been on the keto diet for 3 years, I can say without reasonable doubt that it is the best diet out there. This is because for the vast majority of human history, men have been carnivores, and women have been omnivores. Keto works because it's what our bodies have evolved to do.

Having done this for so long, I've accumulated a vast body of knowledge on keto, and have dispelled many myths thrown at me by the carb-obsessed. If anyone would like me to drop a data sheet, I'd be more than happy to.
 

N°6

Hummingbird
Given that Alzheimer’s is becoming the number one killer in the West and that non communicable diseases are rampant, keto seems to have a lot of benefits for people with normal active lifestyles.

I found that I lost a lot of strength in my arms in the gym doing tricep dips when I was on keto. Maybe paleo or the zone diets are better for people who train as both these diets eliminate simple carbs and grains.
 

Captain Gh

Ostrich
Atheist
Gold Member
N°6 said:
Given that Alzheimer’s is becoming the number one killer in the West and that non communicable diseases are rampant, keto seems to have a lot of benefits for people with normal active lifestyles.

I found that I lost a lot of strength in my arms in the gym doing tricep dips when I was on keto. Maybe paleo or the zone diets are better for people who train as both these diets eliminate simple carbs and grains.

You might want to take a look into carb cycling. Allows you to have certain lower carb days, and then your heavy carb days on which the heavy lifting happens. Honestly the best of both worlds. As much as we sometime hate carbs... they do play a role in energy for us lifters.
 

Jones

Woodpecker
On keto diet you will need to eat a nice few steaks if you want to gain weight (a few small ones, I would say 5 or 6) every day, and you will hit a limit on your gains even when lifting heavy.

Also, you won't want to nor necessarily need to go to the gym as much on keto. 2 or 3 times a week is enough, with a day or two off between workouts.

4-6 times a week is too much on keto, not enough rest, nor will you have the energy (re:"sugar" from carbs") to do hour long lifts that frequently.

You'll lose the pumped up appearance on your muscles without the carbs, and obviously the easier weight gains as well.

A pound of meat day is perfect for anyone doing keto and not wanting to gain weight - of which Keto is much better for losing weight than gaining.
 

Seeker79

Kingfisher
Jones said:
On keto diet you will need to eat a nice few steaks if you want to gain weight (a few small ones, I would say 5 or 6) every day, and you will hit a limit on your gains even when lifting heavy.

Also, you won't want to nor necessarily need to go to the gym as much on keto. 2 or 3 times a week is enough, with a day or two off between workouts.

4-6 times a week is too much on keto, not enough rest, nor will you have the energy (re:"sugar" from carbs") to do hour long lifts that frequently.

You'll lose the pumped up appearance on your muscles without the carbs, and obviously the easier weight gains as well.

A pound of meat day is perfect for anyone doing keto and not wanting to gain weight - of which Keto is much better for losing weight than gaining.

I find it difficult to stomach the $$$ necessary to maintain a proper keto diet. Otherwise, yeah it's a great diet.
 

Jones

Woodpecker
Look around for cheap ways to get fat: I've tried asking butchers near me, they say they use the fat in their other products - depending on where you live you might be able to ask them for the fat they cut off their meats.

Always look for meat, "on sale", that is anything roughly $15 per kg or less - paying for $25 per kg or more is not worth it for me.

Also, find the one's with the most fat at a reasonable price - not only is it absolute necessary to have a high fat ratio, but will keep away the hunger pains and temptation to eat carbohydrates.

Meat will keep in the fridge for weeks, even months - if you can get it cheaper in bulk, not frozen, that's ideal.

With eggs, look for sales, quality does not vary with size or type - they only become a bit more expensive.

I found them for $2 a dozen and bought 6 dozen for $12. I go through at least 5 or 6 eggs a day, most I had in a day was 12.

For cooking steaks and eggs, Costco has a huge bottle of coconut oil - 2.48 L worth, got it for $15, and have used it nearly every day this year. I'm about halfway through.

Your entire grocery list can become eggs and steak. Anything else like tea, cream, chicken, fish, etc. is purely for variety.

At just over a $8 CAN I can live day to day - one large (very raw) steak and half a dozen eggs + butter/cream in my tea.
 
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