Legal prep and defense: Marriage edition

Alright boys tis time to discuss the legal realities surrounding marriage (within western countries to be precise). This is not about female suitability for marriage or anything along those lines. There are plenty of threads already devoted to this. As for why I'm starting this thread (I frequently post about retiring early abroad) it's very simple. I'm not an arrogant fool, I fully understand that despite my best efforts things could blowup in my face...in which case plan B has to be considered.

Assumptions: These are made from the worst case scenario point of view, optimism blinds you to risk and if your blind to threats how can you shield against them?

1: The woman will go bad/feral (applies to both domestic and foreign broads). Now you may be asking why marry in the first place then with this assumption being made. Answer is you want the flesh of your flesh, the blood of your blood and the bone of your bone. The reality is the best method to achieve this for 99% of us (aka the not rich) is the old fashioned way practiced since what...4000 BC?

2: The state and society are hell bent on screwing up anything that even remotely resembles a functional family unit. This by the way ain't an assumption, it's documented truth that can be observed in any family law court.

With these assumptions in mind we now need to look at how we defend ourselves both from the wife and from the state. The following list is not exhaustive, if you guys can come up with better takes on them or more ideas post em. Worst that can happen is it gets debunked. While research into these subjects is valuable what I'm looking for here is the personal experience using them (or helping enact them, a male, redpilled family lawyer is a blessing from heaven).

What I am mainly concerned about is making the family home (which in this scenario would be owned outright), the family vehicles (again owned outright) and every other expensive thing in/around the home impossible for any judge/lawyer to even touch. I am not concerned about stocks/bonds and so forth simply because if i have to resort to plan B (marriage) then plan a (early retirement) has failed utterly and I'll be a wage slave for the rest of my days till the final 100 pound brake chamber snaps my spine in half.

Option number 1: Prenups
Option number 2: LLCs
Option number 3: Trusts

Let those keyboards and minds rip!
 

Jive Turkey

Sparrow
If you get married in America, and probably anywhere in the west you are putting your life in God's hands. There aren't any strategies to win the war after you have signed all of your rights away. In America when you get a government certified marriage you become property of the woman, full stop. You may attend to her and finance her lifestyle at her discretion. The arrangement can be ended at any time for any reason, and you will be the one who foots the bill. The only way to not get screwed is to not get divorced, or to get divorced amicably from a very reasonable and level headed woman, who will see no reason to try to screw you or extract money from the separation. Good luck.
 

Hypno

Crow
First of all, document yours and hers premarital assets and debts. Keep your premarital assets separate from marital property, don't commingle.

A prenup is good but life happens and you won't contemplate every eventuality.

The reality is that in a divorce the woman is likely to get custody and you a child support obligation. She also will be excused from working and you will go to debtor's prison.

Finally, the longer the marriage, the more of your assets a court will give to her.

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Rob Banks

Pelican
Marriage is not a contract but a covenant before God.

Divorce (initiated by either party) is a betrayal as serious as rape or murder.

If you are legitimately worried about being gravely betrayed in this manner, why would you be focusing on preserving your money and material possessions?

If (God forbid) your daughter was raped or your son was murdered, would you be all upset if you found out the perpetrator also robbed them? Or would the robbery be entirely secondary and unimportant?

The talk of divorce as normal and to be expected -- in Christian circles and forums such as this one, no less -- is very sad and contributes to a culture where divorce is tolerated and even encouraged among Christians.

It also strikes me as a way of following the letter of the forum rules but not the spirit. Open discussion of fornication and pickup artistry is forbidden, but it us fine to talk about -- and encourage other men -- to either avoid marriage altogether or enter into a marriage expecting and preparing for divorce.
If you get married in America, and probably anywhere in the west you are putting your life in God's hands.
The fact that this is assumed to be a bad thing is very telling...
 
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Troller

Pelican
Prenup. I´m married with a prenup. It was a big conflict. Loll. All the real estate I buy or sell. I can do it by myself. If you marry with everything belonging to both then every shit action you want to do you need her to sign also. Imagine. It would be nightmare. Convincing a woman a real estate asset it´s a good buy or sell. Loooll. I don´t trust woman. I trust my kids. They are my life. And whenever possible I buy something and put under their name. My wife. Nope. I give her right to live in our house. She also has money. I just have more. And I don´t trust her mother. Maybe when her mother dies. Her father was 5 star but died. Have no idea how he lasted so far enduring everyday the witch.

You worry too much about legal issues. They are factual. First you need to arrange things in a factual way. Only after worry about legal.
 
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PhatEarf

Sparrow
Hoooo boy! Here we go! *knuckle cracks* Where do we begin? First of all, you get married in your state with a state marriage license, you are now contracted by the state. A prenup does not trump state law. The state is part of your contract. So you need a good prenup, a good lawyer, and she needs to not show up in court. Good luck! You may, MAY, get around state law by having a private marriage contract and never get a state contract. MAY because this is all going to vary by your state (I'm only talking US here. This thread would be pointless trying to include every Western country's laws). This means you will never have a marriage license and you won't technically be married in any state document you fill out. You might be able to have your private marriage contract honored by hospitals and things like that for visitation, but instead of proving that with a marriage license piece of paper you get from the state, you would have to submit your whole contract. Why? Because the marriage contract with the state is in the state law, they only have to provide the license saying you are a party to that. You don't get a slip of paper when you get a divorce, you get the ENTIRE court order listing everything you agreed to split and all the fallout of your divorce. Enjoy submitting that to a bunch of places. Think about what goes in there. I would suggest private settlement and putting as little into your court order as you can because it's going to be long enough as it is. WHEN your marriage produces children, because that's the point, the state will get involved during a separation. You CAN turn down their intervention if you BOTH agree. Good luck. You can find some YouTube guys like IV-D Destroyer that may have had some success getting men out of the IV-D gangster system. You basically have to become an amateur lawyer to get out of it because NO lawyer will help you do that without getting disbarred.

You can choose to listen to Christians on their high horses if you want. I lived through it, so I have a better understanding of it than they do. It's all talk until you walk through the hell of the court of man, pray your way through the law of God and Moses (they are different for a reason), and have to deal with the fallout on the other side. Talk all you want about what God's perfect marriage between men and women SHOULD look like, but you are a sinner and you are joining yourself to a sinner in the most intimate way.
 

Dr. Howard

Peacock
Gold Member
When I got married for both the first and second times I had nothing in a community property state, so I really had nothing to worry about. If I get divorced again, I fully expect it to be apocalyptic and don't pretend that any "winning" that I will do will be done via the legal system.

All of that aside, Trusts are awesome, depending on the state you live in. For example, in my state Trusts are not recorded anywhere with the government. You get the trust done, you pay for a notary and you are set. No one knows that the trust even exists besides where the name occurs on property title work (don't pick a stupid name that gives that away like the "Doc Howard Family Trust"). Even if someone finds the name on the title work they will never know who benefits from that trust unless they steal a copy of your trust paperwork.

You will be exposed through good guesswork if you have a trust that flows through your tax return, but if you want to pay trust tax rates and have a 3rd party trustee that can be hidden as well.

Again, in my state, there are no government registrations for trusts and no renewal fees.

There is a lot of overlap between sheltering your marital assets from a crazy spouse and obfuscating your assets from nosy people and scammers. Don't try to hide your stuff from the Tax man though, pretty much all of those methods are illegal.

Last, if you are stressed about your marital assets via your spouse, you are are in a catch 22 situation. That is to say that if you think your wife will stab you in the back you probably shouldn't be married in the first place. If your wife thinks she can stab you in the back and get away with it, you've got marital respect problems.

I personally don't care. What I have came from God, and God can take that away as he sees fit. If my wife goes full adultery and destroys everything, God will replace what he wants to replace for me.
 

Dr. Howard

Peacock
Gold Member
Hoooo boy! Here we go! *knuckle cracks* Where do we begin? First of all, you get married in your state with a state marriage license, you are now contracted by the state. A prenup does not trump state law. The state is part of your contract. So you need a good prenup, a good lawyer, and she needs to not show up in court. Good luck! You may, MAY, get around state law by having a private marriage contract and never get a state contract. MAY because this is all going to vary by your state (I'm only talking US here. This thread would be pointless trying to include every Western country's laws). This means you will never have a marriage license and you won't technically be married in any state document you fill out. You might be able to have your private marriage contract honored by hospitals and things like that for visitation, but instead of proving that with a marriage license piece of paper you get from the state, you would have to submit your whole contract. Why? Because the marriage contract with the state is in the state law, they only have to provide the license saying you are a party to that. You don't get a slip of paper when you get a divorce, you get the ENTIRE court order listing everything you agreed to split and all the fallout of your divorce. Enjoy submitting that to a bunch of places. Think about what goes in there. I would suggest private settlement and putting as little into your court order as you can because it's going to be long enough as it is. WHEN your marriage produces children, because that's the point, the state will get involved during a separation. You CAN turn down their intervention if you BOTH agree. Good luck. You can find some YouTube guys like IV-D Destroyer that may have had some success getting men out of the IV-D gangster system. You basically have to become an amateur lawyer to get out of it because NO lawyer will help you do that without getting disbarred.

You can choose to listen to Christians on their high horses if you want. I lived through it, so I have a better understanding of it than they do. It's all talk until you walk through the hell of the court of man, pray your way through the law of God and Moses (they are different for a reason), and have to deal with the fallout on the other side. Talk all you want about what God's perfect marriage between men and women SHOULD look like, but you are a sinner and you are joining yourself to a sinner in the most intimate way.

If I were to do it all over again, I would do this. I would only have a marital ceremony documented in the front of a bible or embriodery as my ancestors did for 300 years. Why would I want to make the now demonic satanic state a party to my marriage?
 

Rob Banks

Pelican
I didn't assume that it was a bad thing. I told him that if he wants to not get railroaded his protection will be coming from God, not from any legal institution. That is the truth.
And why should a man need legal protection from his wife? Wouldn't it be ridiculous for a man to trust the legal system more than he trusts his own flesh and blood?

Also, judging by the rest of what you posted, "getting railroaded" seems to refer to material and financial losses, not the immense spiritual betrayal that is divorce and adultery.
 

PhatEarf

Sparrow
When I got married for both the first and second times I had nothing in a community property state, so I really had nothing to worry about. If I get divorced again, I fully expect it to be apocalyptic and don't pretend that any "winning" that I will do will be done via the legal system.

All of that aside, Trusts are awesome, depending on the state you live in. For example, in my state Trusts are not recorded anywhere with the government. You get the trust done, you pay for a notary and you are set. No one knows that the trust even exists besides where the name occurs on property title work (don't pick a stupid name that gives that away like the "Doc Howard Family Trust"). Even if someone finds the name on the title work they will never know who benefits from that trust unless they steal a copy of your trust paperwork.

You will be exposed through good guesswork if you have a trust that flows through your tax return, but if you want to pay trust tax rates and have a 3rd party trustee that can be hidden as well.

Again, in my state, there are no government registrations for trusts and no renewal fees.

There is a lot of overlap between sheltering your marital assets from a crazy spouse and obfuscating your assets from nosy people and scammers. Don't try to hide your stuff from the Tax man though, pretty much all of those methods are illegal.

Last, if you are stressed about your marital assets via your spouse, you are are in a catch 22 situation. That is to say that if you think your wife will stab you in the back you probably shouldn't be married in the first place. If your wife thinks she can stab you in the back and get away with it, you've got marital respect problems.

I personally don't care. What I have came from God, and God can take that away as he sees fit. If my wife goes full adultery and destroys everything, God will replace what he wants to replace for me.
Yeah, I made a "[Family name] Trust" and she was on it. I wasn't hiding anything from her. Very good advice for men trying to keep family assets in the extended family and not exposed to a spouse in a relationship that may go bad. These days you have to act in accordance with the evidence we see in society. You may think you have the perfect woman, but the truth is, it's a coin flip or worse, and the rest of your life is on the line including the lives of any kids you produce. When you take some major assets out of the potential damage, you actually remove some burden off the marriage because YOU will be less stressed when dealing with tough times, which will come. Remember you aren't marrying the woman as she is now, you are marrying the woman she will become, and she is marrying the man you will become. It's a long journey, and no one can be certain of that outcome. I recommend marital counseling early and often. A lot of times people turn to marital counseling after it's too late as a last ditch effort, and somebody (her, let's face it, fellas) has usually already made up their mind and is stalling to plan an exit strategy. With no fault divorce, there is no need to expect adultery. My marriage ended before adultery ever took place. She already mentally and emotionally checked out. I think we need marriage back from the state. I think we need more church involvement in marriage beyond the ceremony. Women need to obey their husbands, and marriage should not be an equal partnership. If you can find a woman that agrees to all that, and she's young and fertile, you have a unicorn. God has truly blessed you. Don't screw it up by thinking there is someone better out there. There isn't. It's a wasteland of single moms and leftover women. Truly a tragedy.
 

PhatEarf

Sparrow
And why should a man need legal protection from his wife? Wouldn't it be ridiculous for a man to trust the legal system more than he trusts his own flesh and blood?

Also, judging by the rest of what you posted, "getting railroaded" seems to refer to material and financial losses, not the immense spiritual betrayal that is divorce and adultery.
You should definitely stick around for this thread. You'll learn a lot.
 

REC3

Chicken
Ok. So here goes.

I'm someone who was a practicing plaintiff's contingent fee attorney for over thirty years. That translates into, "I sued companies and occasionally people for a living and took a portion of the settlement as my fee."

I note this so that no one misconstrues me as someone with a matrimonial law background. I should also note that I'm no longer licensed to practice law as a result of a felony conviction derived from a really bad ("War of the Roses" bad) second divorce. So none of what I say here is meant as counsel for someone that needs a lawyer.

My primary emphasis in practice (lawyers aren't ethically permitted to claim "specialties") was health insurance litigation representing hospitals and physicians as plaintiffs in their suits against HMOs, PPOs, ERISA plans and indemnity insurers for payment for medical services that were denied for payment as, "preexisting conditions," "experimental treatment," "non-emergent/out of plan care," etc...

My own history of these issues entails two divorces the first of which was for a three year marriage begun during law school. That one was relatively painless and not too expensive because it was a short term marriage and I was poor when it ended. My transactional expense for that entailed assuming some of the costs of her student loans and moving on without too much brain damage.

The second divorce was an epic cluster**** that cost me everything I owned including my professional license to practice law, my children, my reputation and my freedom. I've read the few posts made to this forum topic and as an annoying (former) lawyer I think that there's some terms in use and other things being referenced that might be helpfully clarified or at least elaborately masticated upon by someone with a background such as my own.

So that's what I'm going to do here is hang around and try to help demystify some of the issues and phrases that are used in controversies of this kind and maybe act as somewhat informed observer by virtue of the tire tracks on my back if nothing else.

I've also got an epic tale of divorce woes that I'd like to recount in some detail if only to dissipate my own sense of anomie as I emerge from a six year jail term. I'd like to think that by the time I'm done posting here I may have at least benefitted someone by recounting my own sad marital Odyssey.

I'm presently trying to get a first post-felony conviction job and that's my primary priority so my ability to post will be somewhat limited until I've dealt with first things first.

I will make one point about whether pre-nuptials are religiously prohibited. First, I don't claim to have any theological insight into whether the Bible prohibits the negotiation and implementation of a pre-nuptial agreement. I can't honestly say whether it's undesirable or even potentially morally repugnant for a Christian marriage to segregate and differentiate the marital partners respective property rights.

What I will say is that there is a broad division in Western jurisprudence (particularly English & American law) involving matters that were decided at common law (judge made law mostly involving contracts and claims for specific money damage awards) and by what were ecclesiastical courts (now described as "equitable" relief). The equity courts in Britain and America are derived from Catholic church ecclesiastical tribunals that dealt with matters of title (land and inheritance) for the aristocracy and later in an evolutionary progression those remedial recourses were subsumed much of what we now describe as domestic relations and matrimonial law.

In short, there is a long history of the Catholic church being involved in arbitrating and then validating or invalidating marriages and adjudicating property rights. Take a look at the entire history of Protestantism, it begins with Henry VIII disavowing Catherine of Aragorn's marital status and the Church's refusal to authenticate his subsequent marriage to Ann Boleyn.

So, go watch the movies, "A Man for All Seasons" (Henry VIII) or "A Lion In the Winter" (Henry II) if you'd like a little historic background on how Christianity has dealt with divorce, property inheritance and pre-nuptials and see what vast historic consequences these issues have brought in their wake. This isn't the first time that our collective Western heritage is being rewritten as a consequence of male/female polarity disputes.
 
If you get married in America, and probably anywhere in the west you are putting your life in God's hands. There aren't any strategies to win the war after you have signed all of your rights away. In America when you get a government certified marriage you become property of the woman, full stop. You may attend to her and finance her lifestyle at her discretion. The arrangement can be ended at any time for any reason, and you will be the one who foots the bill. The only way to not get screwed is to not get divorced, or to get divorced amicably from a very reasonable and level headed woman, who will see no reason to try to screw you or extract money from the separation. Good luck.
True. A married or divorced man with children is a de facto second class citizen. Not only can she divorce you for no reason at all, you are a pay pig until your child is 18/out of high school. Imagine being on like a pseudo probation for in my case 8 more years....doesn’t sound very appealing.
Your ex can haul you into court on a whim at her slightest displeasure and the child you love more than anything will be used as a human shield for her (because mothers are infallible in divorce court). The child will be hung over your head as well as a penalty. Child support is basically renting your own child.
I’m sure some hand rubbing was afoot over the years as this was crafted over the decades.
 
Gentleman, as for why I assume the woman will go bad/feral (even let's say an 18 year old filipina virgin catholic diehard from the provinces) it's this. Women are like water, they take the shape of whatever container there put in. As a result if brought to the USA chances are she will conform to the political and (im)moral container that is the USA. This is reality and it will not change barring armed revolution and lynch mobs.

Looking at the way my "fellow" Americans are rolling over I'm not betting on the system ever changing.
 

Rob Banks

Pelican
@ Rob Banks

Pride goeth before the fall...remember that phrase well Rob, remember it well...
I never claimed to be better than anyone. In fact, if you look at my post history, I've in the past been very open about how much I'm not better than anyone and how badly I've fallen in this life.

That doesn't change the fact that God intended marriage to be a certain way.

If I were to post that gay marriage or open marriages are disgusting and wrong, would you call me prideful?

This is similar. Cynicism and suspicion are poisonous in a marriage. And it is very sad that even unmarried men here are being taught to view cynicism and suspicion as the norm, and to think of unconditional trust and love as being signs of weakness and naivety.
And @Rob Banks, mellow out a bit, guy. Some people in this world actually want to cover their asses.
People in this world want to do a lot of things that are not always right.

How about "covering your ass" by not marrying a woman who you'e not sure you can trust?

In fact, why (other than lust) would a man even want to marry a woman he trusts so little that he feels the need to seek out legal protection against her?

When this was a PUA forum, if a guy came here talking about God and sin, he would probably have been told to "mellow out" because "some people in this world just want to get laid."
 
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