Legal prep and defense: Marriage edition

@ Rob Banks

You assume that people can't change, that she can't change. That ain't the truth of the matter. Humans have freewill, as a result any human being can turn upon another at any time. If we did not have freewill then what would be the point of all this? Predestination means that nothing we do can affect the ultimate outcome, in fact it is the ultimate blackpill.

As a result pure women are the result of "pure" (e.g controlling and note I don't mean pure/controlling in a bad way...in fact societies that abandon those two concepts are screwed) societies that harshly punish deviation from the ideal. In Islamic countries you fornicate and get caught it can be an easy 100 lashes at least. You commit adultery you get stoned to death.

In less harsh countries you still get ostracized, banished and made an example of. Guilt has no affect on most women, shame and the fear of pain/discomfort/death do.
 

PhatEarf

Sparrow
If my post was too judgmental (when I said the men here are stuck in a PUA mindset), then I take it back. I'm sure most of the men here genuinely want to have a healthy marriage.

That doesn't change the fact that God intended husbands and wives to trust each other (to the point of becoming "one flesh" and no longer two separate individuals).

If the woman you're seeing is not trustworthy in this manner, then maybe the correct response is to not marry her.

You would think twice about working for a boss who you feared might rip you off or fire yoy unjustly. And marriage is a far more important decision than taking a job.

People in this world want to do a lot of things that are not always right.

When this was a PUA forum, if a guy came here talking about God and sin, he would probably have been told to "mellow out" because "some people in this world just want to get laid."
Times have changed, and there are a lot of Christians here now. A lot of these Christians have been burned by the world, and those they held most dear. A woman will say anything to get a man to sign those papers because she knows that's her safety blanket. Do you think we marry women that tell us, "I love you so much right now, but I will probably divorce you in 5-10 years." My ex-wife said she believed marriage is for life. Yeah, she was a worldly girl, but I was in sin, too. Still, I was lied to when she said she believed marriage is for life. I should have known better, but I believed her. We haven't even got into "finding the right woman." This is just, "how do we protect ourselves." I guarantee you no woman will react favorably to a pre-nup, and it probably won't protect you anyway. If you need to structure assets you hold to keep them separate from the marriage, do it before the marriage and don't disclose it to her. It's not required when you sign those marriage papers, and really, she wants to be with YOU for life, not get your stuff, right? That's really advice for older men with assets. Let's be honest if this were for all men, a lot of this wouldn't apply. I got married with not much to my name, and so it was nearly 100% subject to the laws of my state which is half of most assets. Private settlement and buyout (you're cutting her a check for at least $10k) on most physical possessions because, let me tell you, women will overvalue what you want to keep, and undervalue what they want to keep. Most of the stuff you accumulate is in a marriage if it's your first one. Maybe this should be structured for age of husband, age of wife, citizenship status of wife, and assets of parties at time of marriage. It could get really complicated, but it's about the legal process in the world we live in, not, "what is God's ideal marriage between man and woman according to the Bible."
 

Hypno

Crow
Divorce (initiated by either party) is a betrayal as serious as rape or murder.

The fact that this is assumed to be a bad thing is very telling...

If you walk down the street in Detroit or NYC, you shouldn't be surprised if you get raped or murdered.

I lock the doors to my home every night. Ultimatly, salvation is the only thing that matters but I don't want to get robbed, let alone raped or murdered.
 

Hypno

Crow
No use in arguing with men who are stuck in the cynical PUA mindset.

That fair, to an extent. But the other side of the coin is equally valid. There are a lot of guys giving marriage and life advice that have never been married, let alone raised a kid or paid child support, alimony, and "equitable distribution."
 

Troller

Pelican
Women are not to be fully trusted. Never. This doesn´t mean you shouldn´t marry one. You just need to understand their nature. Women are survivors. And will do anything to survive. Wether it´s evil or not. Also you can´t be weak. They smell weakness. And will strike like a python.

Put some shit under your kids name. Don´t talk about money. Have separate accounts. And if she has money even better. But never ever fully trust your woman. Any women. And above all don´t marry sluts. A slut is always waiting for you around the corner.

She needs to be religious. And not a slut.

She is there for one job and one job only: Taking care of your children. Anything else it´s a bonus.

A marriage has ups and downs. You need to endure the downs.

But everything must be done without law. Imagine there´s no law to protect you. Nothing. Everything you think about using legally doesn´t exist. You need to protect your assets only by actions. Forget about trusts or whatever. It´s not expecting to be protected by law. But making it physically/reality impossible for her to reach your assets. You don´t own them. But control them.

West system is broken by jews jesuits and elitists. They want it all.

Micah 7:5-7
Do not trust a neighbor;
put no confidence in a friend.
Even with the woman who lies in your embrace
guard the words of your lips.
 
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Rob Banks

Pelican
If you walk down the street in Detroit or NYC, you shouldn't be surprised if you get raped or murdered.

I lock the doors to my home every night. Ultimatly, salvation is the only thing that matters but I don't want to get robbed, let alone raped or murdered.
You're comparing strangers who are thuggish rapists and murderers to someone who is supposedly your own flesh and blood under a holy covenant with God.

Ultimate cynicism and black-pill thinking right there.

By your logic, why would you sleep in the same bed as your wife? Wouldn't you be afraid she will kill you in your sleep?

What if you go on vacation with her to the mountains or the woods? Surely, she could murder you there and not get caught.

Better yet, go be a recluse and don't ever start a family. Everyone you allow to get close to you (including your own wife and children) is a potential rapist, murderer, or thief.

I cannot imagine how dark and painful it must be to live that way.

"But Rob, don't be ridiculous. Of course my wife would never murder me. Murder is really evil. You cannot compare divorce with something as serious as murder."

And that is my point exactly. Divorce is a betrayal as bad as murder, rape, or whatever else. It is not normal to marry a woman who you believe will do this to you. The fact that many of you think it's normal is a sign of just how deep the cultural rot is.
 
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Dilated

Woodpecker
Care to elaborate? Did the suggestion of a prenup set a rough tone for the marriage, something she was peeved about and brought up a lot? How did things pan out?

And @Rob Banks, mellow out a bit, guy. Some people in this world actually want to cover their asses.

It was the biggest source of contention in the relationship. It started with ‘so you don’t trust me!’ and ‘you can’t treat a marriage like a business!’ And only got worse from there.

Not surprisingly, she treated the divorce like a business. I made one small error on the pre-nup (didn’t disclose a pension because I didn’t know I had it) and that was all they needed to fight it.

Cost me $20k in legal fees.
 

Dilated

Woodpecker
Remember- doing a good job of separating/hiding/cataloguing pre-marital assets means nothing. They don’t take your pre-marital assets. They use PRE-MARITAL ASSETS to AWARD HER more than 50% of the MARITAL ASSETS.

**EDIT- also used to award her alimony.
 

PhatEarf

Sparrow
You're comparing strangers who are thuggish rapists and murderers to someone who is supposedly your own flesh and blood under a holy covenant with God.

Ultimate cynicism and black-pill thinking right there.

By your logic, why would you sleep in the same bed as your wife? Wouldn't you be afraid she will kill you in your sleep?

What if you go on vacation with her to the mountains or the woods? Surely, she could murder you there and not get caught.

Better yet, go be a recluse and don't ever start a family. Everyone you allow to get close to you (including your own wife and children) is a potential rapist, murderer, or thief.

I cannot imagine how dark and painful it must be to live that way.

"But Rob, don't be ridiculous. Of course my wife would never murder me. Murder is really evil. You cannot compare divorce with something as serious as murder."

And that is my point exactly. Divorce is a betrayal as bad as murder, rape, or whatever else. It is not normal to marry a woman who you believe will do this to you. The fact that many of you think it's normal is a sign of just how deep the cultural rot is.
Maybe you should stop your sophistry and start reading. You have provided no Bible verses backing up your claim that divorce is equal to rape and murder. What is the divorce rate amongst Christians? You'll learn real quick how "Christian" your wife is in court if you should ever be so unfortunate to find yourself there. Here's how a Christian should act:

1 Corinthians 6:1-8
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
 

Rob Banks

Pelican
No, its the voice of experience. I married a Bible school teacher and did not have a prenup.

Pretending you will never get divorced is not a plan and incorrectly implies that its your decision.
I see. So it is not your decision to have high standards and only be willing to marry a woman who can be 100% trusted not to betray you.

Actually, it is totally your decision to make. The only thing is that if God does not provide you with a suitable woman right away (or ever), you need to be willing to be celibate.

But for the modern man, celibacy is not an option.

If we assume sex is an absolute necessity and celibacy is out of the question, then we are forced to either sleep around or marry a woman we are unsure about.

@PhatEarf, I do not need to provide Bible verses. Divorce being a grave betrayal is fundamental and obvious to anyone with a heart and a sense of true spirituality. The concept of "marriage until death" is present in all worldwide belief systems just like the concept of "thou shalt not kill."

To paraphrase @ilostabet, it is cringeworthy to be "spiritual but not religious," but those who are "religious but not spiritual" are just as bad, if not worse.
 

STG

Woodpecker
There is no defense against the scam that modern marriage is today. This is by design. A system where a woman can cheat on you despite you doing nothing wrong and you getting raped in divorce court is not a fair system. Anyone can see this, yet it does not change. Why?

Of all the people I have ever met that were or are married, 90% of them have been divorced at least once maybe even twice. Most of the others who were never divorced lived in misery and would section out different parts of the home for their own space. They were living with a roommate it was not a marriage.

The only people I know who have a successful marriage are Christian. The wife is a mother and homemaker and stays home raising the kids. The husband is the provider and father. They home school their children and have a close knit community of friends through their church. I am very impressed with their lifestyle. They have a wonderful family and home and live disconnected from the toxic depression modern American has become.

Either have a Christian marriage or do not get married.
 

PhatEarf

Sparrow
@PhatEarf, I do not need to provide Bible verses. Divorce being a grave betrayal is fundamental and obvious to anyone with a heart and a sense of true spirituality. The concept of "marriage until death" is present in all worldwide belief systems just like the concept of "thou shalt not kill."
I'm sola scriptura, so your gut feeling isn't good enough for me if you're going to claim a Christian view point on this topic.

This is a thread about men taking legal actions to protect our assets. Why? Shouldn't we trust our women? If you haven't learned that "believe all women" is a lie from the pit of hell, check out now and good luck to you. This isn't the thread for you unless you're willing to listen and learn from some men that have learned the hard way.

This isn't a thread about avoiding marriage, it is the opposite. So these are horror stories, yes, but you better know what you are getting into, and how to avoid the legal pitfalls that are out there these days. If your woman can't accept a private contract between the two of you in lieu of a state marriage license, or if a pre-nup offends her, sin is crouching at her door. Women aren't meant to be a part of these legal agreements. These should be arranged between men: the father and the suitor. That's not the world we live in, and woman have legal recognition in the court superior to men. This wasn't always so. Marriage wasn't so easy to get out of. Those days are gone. Wake up and live in the now.

I am very happy with people that keep their marriages together. It's fantastic they are finding comfort in their Biblical roles through joy and sorrow. Men want this, that's why they still risk marriage. You can plan for success, but it's not guaranteed. If you are smart, you should also have an exit plan because guess what? You are still on the hook to be a provider for your children. Women, out of their sinful disobedience, will sink your ship out of spite. Figure out a way to limit her ability to do damage to you so you can recover, and still provide for your children and be a good father. Men that don't plan for this failure, and find themselves with nothing and with the pain of losing a person they thought they would spend the rest of their lives with, and the future they planned for their children is now in the toilet... they take the rope, dude. They drown in a bottle. They end up in jail over missed child support payments. This is serious. So spare me your Bible-free preaching.
 

Rob Banks

Pelican
I'm sola scriptura, so your gut feeling isn't good enough for me if you're going to claim a Christian view point on this topic.

This is a thread about men taking legal actions to protect our assets. Why? Shouldn't we trust our women? If you haven't learned that "believe all women" is a lie from the pit of hell, check out now and good luck to you. This isn't the thread for you unless you're willing to listen and learn from some men that have learned the hard way.

This isn't a thread about avoiding marriage, it is the opposite. So these are horror stories, yes, but you better know what you are getting into, and how to avoid the legal pitfalls that are out there these days. If your woman can't accept a private contract between the two of you in lieu of a state marriage license, or if a pre-nup offends her, sin is crouching at her door. Women aren't meant to be a part of these legal agreements. These should be arranged between men: the father and the suitor. That's not the world we live in, and woman have legal recognition in the court superior to men. This wasn't always so. Marriage wasn't so easy to get out of. Those days are gone. Wake up and live in the now.

I am very happy with people that keep their marriages together. It's fantastic they are finding comfort in their Biblical roles through joy and sorrow. Men want this, that's why they still risk marriage. You can plan for success, but it's not guaranteed. If you are smart, you should also have an exit plan because guess what? You are still on the hook to be a provider for your children. Women, out of their sinful disobedience, will sink your ship out of spite. Figure out a way to limit her ability to do damage to you so you can recover, and still provide for your children and be a good father. Men that don't plan for this failure, and find themselves with nothing and with the pain of losing a person they thought they would spend the rest of their lives with, and the future they planned for their children is now in the toilet... they take the rope, dude. They drown in a bottle. They end up in jail over missed child support payments. This is serious. So spare me your Bible-free preaching.
I very much do not believe in sola scriptura, but I won't debate Protestantism vs. Catholocism/Orthodoxy here.

Marriage is not a contract. It is a covenant. A covenant between a man and his wife, not between a man and his wife's father.

Yes, the father should play a big role in approving or disapproving of the marriage, but ultimately it is the woman who must choose to give herself to you under her own free will.

It is telling how you speak of marriages that end in divorce as being "unsuccessful."

Divorce is not a "failure" or a "lack of success" (like a failed business or career). Divorce is a grave, lifelong betrayal. I say "lifelong" because every day the woman spends claiming your marriage covenant is void (and likely living in adultery), she is actively betraying you.

P.S. You claim to believe in sola scriptura, but you're OK with a man and woman having a "private agreement" in lieu of marriage. Quote me a Bible verse that allows that.
 

PhatEarf

Sparrow
I very much do not believe in sola scriptura, but I won't debate Protestantism vs. Catholocism/Orthodoxy here.

Marriage is not a contract. It is a covenant. A covenant between a man and his wife, not between a man and his wife's father.

Yes, the father should play a big role in approving or disapproving of the marriage, but ultimately it is the woman who must choose to give herself to you under her own free will.

It is telling how you speak of marriages that end in divorce as being "unsuccessful."

Divorce is not a "failure" or a "lack of success" (like a failed business or career). Divorce is a grave, lifelong betrayal. I say "lifelong" because every day the woman spends claiming your marriage covenant is void (and likely living in adultery), she is actively betraying you.

P.S. You claim to believe in sola scriptura, but you're OK with a man and woman having a "private agreement" in lieu of marriage. Quote me a Bible verse that allows that.
Yeah, bro, I'm divorced. You don't have to convince me how terrible it is. This doesn't stop women from betraying you, and taking your property. Property that should never have to be divided if the marriage covenant is honored.

When things are done properly, the woman has a choice. But it is NOT her choice ALONE and any contract that is done should be between the men. Women should serve and obey their husbands, and not concern themselves with his wealth. See? I can live in my own fantasy world, too. You want to huff and puff about ex-wives betraying their husbands by having sex with other men AFTER the divorce? Really? I don't care what she does after the divorce, I'm not taking her back, ever. Any woman that is divorced and sleeps with other men should never be reunited with her ex-husband.

Women WILL concern themselves with a man's wealth today. That's why this thread is about protecting their wealth. The private agreement IS the covenant of marriage. You could pretty much just write down the vows so she could read them and take time to understand them before repeating after the pastor during the ceremony. You don't have to come up with a bunch of provisions in case you want to leave the marriage. I'd just put in something about adultery and failing to live up to the vows. The piece of paper the state has you sign is a COVENANT between you, your wife, and the state. Believe me, they have a whole bunch of laws regarding the dissolution of your marriage.

Genesis 24

50 Then Laban and Bethuel answered, “The thing comes from the Lord; we cannot speak to you anything bad or good. 51 Look, Rebekah is before you, take her and go, and let her be the wife of your master’s son, as the Lord has spoken.”

52 When Abraham’s servant heard their words, he bowed himself to the ground before the Lord. 53 And the servant brought out jewelry of silver and of gold, and garments, and gave them to Rebekah; he also gave to her brother and to her mother costly ornaments. 54 Then he and the men who were with him ate and drank, and they spent the night there. When they rose in the morning, he said, “Send me back to my master.” 55 Her brother and her mother said, “Let the girl remain with us a while, at least ten days; after that she may go.” 56 But he said to them, “Do not delay me, since the Lord has made my journey successful; let me go that I may go to my master.” 57 They said, “We will call the girl, and ask her.” 58 And they called Rebekah, and said to her, “Will you go with this man?” She said, “I will.” 59 So they sent away their sister Rebekah and her nurse along with Abraham’s servant and his men. 60 And they blessed Rebekah and said to her,

“May you, our sister, become
thousands of myriads;
may your offspring gain possession
of the gates of their foes.”

61 Then Rebekah and her maids rose up, mounted the camels, and followed the man; thus the servant took Rebekah, and went his way.


Genesis 29

After Jacob had stayed with him for a whole month, 15 Laban said to him, “Just because you are a relative of mine, should you work for me for nothing? Tell me what your wages should be.”

16 Now Laban had two daughters; the name of the older was Leah, and the name of the younger was Rachel. 17 Leah had weak eyes, but Rachel had a lovely figure and was beautiful. 18 Jacob was in love with Rachel and said, “I’ll work for you seven years in return for your younger daughter Rachel.”

19 Laban said, “It’s better that I give her to you than to some other man. Stay here with me.” 20 So Jacob served seven years to get Rachel, but they seemed like only a few days to him because of his love for her.

21 Then Jacob said to Laban, “Give me my wife. My time is completed, and I want to make love to her.”

22 So Laban brought together all the people of the place and gave a feast. 23 But when evening came, he took his daughter Leah and brought her to Jacob, and Jacob made love to her. 24 And Laban gave his servant Zilpah to his daughter as her attendant.

25 When morning came, there was Leah! So Jacob said to Laban, “What is this you have done to me? I served you for Rachel, didn’t I? Why have you deceived me?”

26 Laban replied, “It is not our custom here to give the younger daughter in marriage before the older one. 27 Finish this daughter’s bridal week; then we will give you the younger one also, in return for another seven years of work.”

28 And Jacob did so. He finished the week with Leah, and then Laban gave him his daughter Rachel to be his wife. 29 Laban gave his servant Bilhah to his daughter Rachel as her attendant. 30 Jacob made love to Rachel also, and his love for Rachel was greater than his love for Leah. And he worked for Laban another seven years.

Deuteronomy 24:1-4
When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, and if she goes and becomes another man's wife, and the latter man hates her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter man dies, who took her to be his wife, then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled, for that is an abomination before the Lord. And you shall not bring sin upon the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance.
 

BlastbeatCasanova

Kingfisher
@Rob Banks I’m assuming you feel some type of way about this topic because of what you’ve been through with your woman as you’ve detailed in previous posts. Of course I could be wrong but I hope it’s not causing you too much external/internal strife anymore. I recall you saying that you were going to take some time off from RVF/the internet and work on yourself IRL. I hope that you returning and posting means you’re doing better. That said, God supposedly helps those who help themselves and He gave us men brains to cover our tails in the dangerous romantic/marital landscape that we find ourselves in today. [Disclaimer: I’ve never been married before, just a keen observer of culture and people]. It would be foolhardy at best and dangerous at worst to not heed the words of the men who have been through the trenches. Not to mention what a lot of the other older and wiser posters here have divulged to us. I don’t like it but here we are.

Despite having quite a few great models for successful marriages (so it seems from the outside) in friends and family, the entire prospect just doesn’t make sense to me. It’s kind of cliche but the whole “marriage is betting half of your future net worth on staying with the same broad forever” says it all. You could pick an amazing woman and things still might go tits up in the worst way. It used to make sense but now it’s the antithesis of freedom for a man. I get it if you want to have kids, and if you are called to be a dad might as well take a shot, but you better do your homework, vet your woman, and cover your ass. I like the idea of a contract between the spouses, absolutely no need to get the state involved in this day in age. Rambling screed over, goodnight all.
 

Rob Banks

Pelican
@Rob Banks I’m assuming you feel some type of way about this topic because of what you’ve been through with your woman as you’ve detailed in previous posts. Of course I could be wrong but I hope it’s not causing you too much external/internal strife anymore. I recall you saying that you were going to take some time off from RVF/the internet and work on yourself IRL...
Yes, I do feel some type of way about this, not only because of my own experiences with marriage but also because I come from a broken family.

We all feel certain types of ways about things based on our life experiences. For example, there are guys in this thread who have been through ugly divorces, and that is why they feel the way they do.

I have come to realize just how destructive divorce (and distrust/hatred in a marriage) can be, and that it can be avoided if you choose to marry a woman you can love and cherish the way Christ loves and cherishes His church.

I have come to these realizations through my newfound Christian faith, and I found Christ in no small part through RVF. So it is very sad for me to see this platform being used to encourage suspicion, distrust, and division between husbands and wives.

Yes, I did say I was taking a break. I have hardly been posting here for the last several months, actually. I just come here out of habit to read the commentary when I'm bored. Today, I could not help but call out when I saw people talking about marriage and divorce the way they were.

Maybe it was a mistake, because I am unlikely to convince those I was arguing with, and those who understand what I am saying already know it and do not need to be convinced. But on the other hand, who knows if any man on the verge of filing for divorce, or a young single man ready to give up on women and marriage, will read this thread and see that there is at least one voice out there highlighting the beauty of a true marriage covenant under God and the ugliness and destructiveness of divorce, distrust, and hatred between spouses.
 

BlastbeatCasanova

Kingfisher
Yes, I do feel some type of way about this, not only because of my own experiences with marriage but also because I come from a broken family.

We all feel certain types of ways about things based on our life experiences. For example, there are guys in this thread who have been through ugly divorces, and that is why they feel the way they do.

I have come to realize just how destructive divorce (and distrust/hatred in a marriage) can be, and that it can be avoided if you choose to marry a woman you can love and cherish the way Christ loves and cherishes His church.

I have come to these realizations through my newfound Christian faith, and I found Christ in no small part through RVF. So it is very sad for me to see this platform being used to encourage suspicion, distrust, and division between husbands and wives.

Yes, I did say I was taking a break. I have hardly been posting here for the last several months, actually. I just come here out of habit to read the commentary when I'm bored. Today, I could not help but call out when I saw people talking about marriage and divorce the way they were.

Maybe it was a mistake, because I am unlikely to convince those I was arguing with, and those who understand what I am saying already know it and do not need to be convinced. But on the other hand, who knows if any man on the verge of filing for divorce, or a young single man ready to give up on women and marriage, will read this thread and see that there is at least one voice out there highlighting the beauty of a true marriage covenant under God and the ugliness and destructiveness of divorce, distrust, and hatred between spouses.
I feel you, hope you didn’t take my post as me coming down on you. It’s definitely a dicey subject
 
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