Libertarian Party discussion

GlobalMan

Hummingbird
Gold Member
BrewDog said:
So, since I've been relegated to my libertarian thread and I'm not welcome to have any discourse in the republican thread, I welcome you into the libertarian discussion.
Cut the bullshit.

You are perfectly welcome to join the discussion in any thread you like- it's the derailing of a thread meant for one topic into a completely different one that doesn't work and is frowned up.

Likewise being a dick- that is not going to go over well anywhere, and why you've often faced a poor reception. It's not a censoring of speech, it's just a natural reaction to the drunk dude in the corner talking shit and trying to fight everyone.

On the other hand, a guy who can stay calm and present some reasonable arguments -in the appropriate thread- will always be welcomed and encouraged to participate.

Chill out and stop pretending there is some conspiracy to shut down your speech when it's simply your attitude that has turned people off- it will go a long way to taking what you have to say more seriously, and prevent you from being banned.
 

Slim Shady

Ostrich
Gold Member
I care a lot about civil liberties man.

I have a big problem with a lot of what cops do. I have a big problem with stop and frisk. I have a big problem with the Patriot Act.

However, I do think the Fed needs to be held accountable, the TSA must be reformed, the tax code must be reformed, we must rethink NATO, and stop funding countries that hate us --> especially Pakistan, but I'm biased there.

So these pros are big issues, and Mr. Trump is for them. I don't live in an autistic fantasy world, and realize that change must be gradual, unless one nukes the world.

I also know for a certainty that the Clintons are evil people, and no different than the Bushs. We are not rooting for Mr. Trump because he is a Republican, we are voting for him because he is not. Republicans hate him, and yet can't do anything about him!

I truly wish Ron Paul had become the President, but he didn't have the savy to deal with the completely rigged system put against him. He could have blown any other candidate who has run in the - last god know how long - out of the water. Alas, people respond most to pathos. Even if people responded more to reason, it wouldn't matter because the media, which is almost all connected, lies and misrepresents facts. Libertarians today do not seem to understand that utility functions are variable, and inter-connected. We aren't dealing with simple economics equations on a board, people are more complex, especially if you can not connect with them and truly understand their motives.

---

For example, I gain more utility from being free and not being told what to do than my safety or "doing the right thing". If I had to go to prison for a long time, I would kill myself probably very quickly, or do something rash to escape.

What also gives people utility is making money. A lot of libertarian align with this. But what about the Saudis? Read the history of the House of Saud, and how they went against their own people. sided with the Brits against the Ottoman Caliphate, and overthrew the major house in Arabia, which is now the ruling family of Syria, exiled from SA. The Saudis are thus afraid that their own people, the wahabbists, will decapitate them if they can not keep US support, and keep the energy hegemony.

So now this changes the Saudi Utility function drastically. They are willing to undercut oil prices much lower than expected to combat the rising US fracking industry and take massive losses, because those loses still don't compare to having their heads cut off, and losing their hundreds of billions of dollars in wealth and power.

Saudi's have a huge vested interest in the US elections, therefore, and anyone trying to cut foreign aid, like RP or DT, will be fought. The fact that Saudi's own parts of CNN, Fox, Twitter, etc, makes the media very dishonest.

---

So how do we combat this? I think that while Mr. Trump is far from ideal on civil liberties issues, once we have our country back, and remove or atleast greatly reduce foreign globalist influences (Soros, Saudis, etc), we can be self-determinant. In a country of good honest people, it is much easier to be Libertarian [internally] because the people in a peaceful environment, with shared interests, are much more likely to adhere to the non-aggression principle which is very crucial for Libertarian policies to work.

The mistake that a lot of Libertarians make is misunderstanding utility functions, or not understanding people. Our naturally rebellious nature can make a lot of us bad fits for normie society. But once we understand the true nature of some people, it becomes easier to understand how they will respond to certain triggers.

The bottom line is this: we are fighting the culture war in the hopes of potentially righting the ship so that we may be able to have a much more libertarian society in the future. A lot of Trump supporters are RP supporters, and certainly would work for these freedoms after Nov. 8th,but right now we are lazer forcused on the task at hand, so everything else is just distraction.

Audit the Fed, cutting foreign aid, non-intervention/nation building, tax code --> all big issues, that Republican candidates do not ever talk about. Big wins in my book.

---

Here's an imperfect analogy for you if you've read your Asimov:

Mr. Trump is the Mule.

Regardless, if #neverTrump Libertarians were not hypocrites I would respect them more. This is why I still respect Dr. Paul immensely. Not for TPP - which is BIG Government, not for forcing people to bake gay wedding cakes, and not for gun control. If you're going to follow the letter, go all the way.
 

Rush87

Ostrich
BrewDog said:
Rush87 said:
Trump is taking complex issues, and delivering answers in a small concise message that everyone understands.
It would be even better if he didn't change his mind daily.

If you don't like what Trump says, just wait 24 hours, it'll be completely different.
No it wouldn't. Everyone changes their mind on a frequent basis because the world tomorrow isn't the same as the world today. We try and hold humans to a standard which is unreasonable. I prefer big picture politics, and in the big picture, he's consistent.

Gary Johnson has an open border policy. Big picture. Fucks the nation. Hillary Clinton has an open border policy. Big picture fucks the nation. Trump wants far tighter borders, big picture, helps the nation.

I could run through the same things with regards to trade, male/female dynamics, censorship of speech etc etc. Trump's big picture is head and shoulders above every single candidate currently available.
 
SamuelBRoberts said:
"It would be even better if he didn't change his mind daily.
If you don't like what Trump says, just wait 24 hours, it'll be completely different."

It would be also be better if he could shoot lasers out of his eyes. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a compelling argument.
Well, let me explain my innuendo. I forgot that I wasn't speaking to fellow educated libertarians.

Trump is what people call a flip flopper. Or some might say a populist. He says whatever that day he thinks may be the most popular thing to get votes from the most uneducated voters.

Others might call him a demagogue, but I don't want to throw around too many big words in this setting.
 

weambulance

Hummingbird
Gold Member
Okay, fuck off man, you're trolling, and you are not nearly as educated as you seem to think. Oooh, populist! Demagogue! More of the one dimensional buzzword-based thinking I've been calling out since April.

:troll:

Don't bother guys, you're wasting your time.
 

AneroidOcean

Hummingbird
Gold Member
BrewDog said:
Rush87 said:
Trump is taking complex issues, and delivering answers in a small concise message that everyone understands.
It would be even better if he didn't change his mind daily.

If you don't like what Trump says, just wait 24 hours, it'll be completely different.
Okay cool. If this happens so often, please point out 10 examples of his policy flip flops from last week to this week. Should be easy right?

You said he has a low IQ. Since I'm not a genius, can you break down for me how exactly someone with a low IQ graduated from the Wharton school and how he has managed to run so many successful companies?

BrewDog, you're a troll amongst trolls. Disagreeing is fine, but not providing ANYTHING to support your argument, just shows your troll colors. You have experience being a troll, but it's all bad experience.
 

GlobalMan

Hummingbird
Gold Member
BrewDog said:
Well, let me explain my innuendo. I forgot that I wasn't speaking to fellow educated libertarians.

Others might call him a demagogue, but I don't want to throw around too many big words in this setting.
Yes BrewDog, these words are just all too much for us idiots that make up the forum to understand :tard:
 
GlobalMan said:
BrewDog said:
So, since I've been relegated to my libertarian thread and I'm not welcome to have any discourse in the republican thread, I welcome you into the libertarian discussion.
Cut the bullshit.

You are perfectly welcome to join the discussion in any thread you like- it's the derailing of a thread meant for one topic into a completely different one that doesn't work and is frowned up.

Likewise being a dick- that is not going to go over well anywhere, and why you've often faced a poor reception. It's not a censoring of speech, it's just a natural reaction to the drunk dude in the corner talking shit and trying to fight everyone.

On the other hand, a guy who can stay calm and present some reasonable arguments -in the appropriate thread- will always be welcomed and encouraged to participate.

Chill out and stop pretending there is some conspiracy to shut down your speech when it's simply your attitude that has turned people off- it will go a long way to taking what you have to say more seriously, and prevent you from being banned.
I was invited to leave your Trump thread on multiple occasions. Has any libertarian asked any of you to leave "our" thread despite you having discourse with our philosophy?

Libertarians rub people the wrong way. I still can't figure it out. Ben Franklin and I would get along GREAT. Yet my beliefs in liberty and small government always piss off both major parties. The left calls us far right, and the right says we're super liberal. Some people say we're moderates. But 98% of Americans think we're kooks, and I just don't get it. I'm as normal of an American red-blooded guy as you can get. I was an infantry Marine. I salute our flag and put my hand over my heart during the anthem. I like kittens and firefighters. I drink beer and fuck as much pooty as I can.

I don't understand the backlash against libertarians. I truly don't. It's the most logical mindset for an American that I can fathom.
 
AneroidOcean said:
BrewDog said:
Rush87 said:
Trump is taking complex issues, and delivering answers in a small concise message that everyone understands.
It would be even better if he didn't change his mind daily.

If you don't like what Trump says, just wait 24 hours, it'll be completely different.
Okay cool. If this happens so often, please point out 10 examples of his policy flip flops from last week to this week. Should be easy right?
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-false-statements-20160925-snap-story.html

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-than-all-the-other-2016-candidates-combined/
 

Slim Shady

Ostrich
Gold Member
BrewDog said:
It's the most logical mindset for an American that I can fathom.
Read my post above.

Utility functions.

Not in the best interests of the powers to allow more self-deterministic people.

The only goal of the government is ever increasing government. Power is a drug.

Right now they are all about letting in as many people as possible who will vote for bigger government and higher welfare.

They are for more "diverse" people to come in, so that they can incite riots, implement martial law, and do away with the whole damn sham of democracy!

Trump is the only way to fight this immediate problem.

If you were to completely ignore what Mr. Trump is actually doing - Pacing and Leading - and only focused on policy, he is still infinitely better than every President we have had since Calvin Coolidge.

This is the worst case, which does not take into account the fact that he is the only chance for us to save this country for a self-deterministic future.

What are you thoughts on Nigel Farage and Brexit?
 
"I don't understand the backlash against libertarians. I truly don't. It's the most logical mindset for an American that I can fathom."

Why do you think you know so many people's interests better than they do?
People LIKE social security. They LIKE highways. They like the police. They like firefighters. They like public schools. When you tell them you're going to take away all these things and replace them all with some strange, ill-defined privatized replacements, they don't like that.

It doesn't matter if you, personally, think that we'd be better off with private firefighters and fully-privatized schools. The vast majority of Americans disagree with you.

This isn't really that hard.
 

Rush87

Ostrich
BrewDog said:
AneroidOcean said:
BrewDog said:
Rush87 said:
Trump is taking complex issues, and delivering answers in a small concise message that everyone understands.
It would be even better if he didn't change his mind daily.

If you don't like what Trump says, just wait 24 hours, it'll be completely different.
Okay cool. If this happens so often, please point out 10 examples of his policy flip flops from last week to this week. Should be easy right?
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-false-statements-20160925-snap-story.html

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-than-all-the-other-2016-candidates-combined/
Politifact is far from factual: Gary Johnson, due to the fact that he is largely unknown, has just 16 statements, and just one of those is classified as true by Politifact.

If we are holding this up as some sort of gold standard in peoples ability to tell the truth, then Gary Johnson is a huge liar.... 57% of his comments are half true, mostly false, or false.

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/gary-johnson/

And Washington Post fact checker? The L.A times? They would publish pro Isis propaganda before posting pro Trump articles.
 

Slim Shady

Ostrich
Gold Member
Your articles have been fact checked and they are:

Garbage.

Politifact is a shill website. Three times more likely to rate Republicans as liars than Democrats, or something like that.

This article calls the birther thing a lie by My. Trump, when it was not.

Troll article.

Troll = Confirmed

:troll:

Siding with the media after what they did to Ron Paul for years?

You're worse than Ted Cruz coming over after we obliterated his wife!
 

AneroidOcean

Hummingbird
Gold Member
BrewDog said:
Just as I suspected from a self-professed high IQ individual, a link to Politifact (doesn't address your point and they are heavily liberal-leaning), a link to the Washington Post referencing the same Politifact (which analyzes the validity of statements, not focused on contradicting statements, and does it disingenuously), and a link to an LA Times article (another heavily liberal-leaning source) which points out things that are demonstrably false such as his position on the Iraq war (not having a concrete position, then becoming more concrete on the matter prior to the war, and flip flopping are two entirely different things). The LA Times article then goes on to point to Politifact again!

Every single link you posted was based on Politifact, incredible.

Your support is so weak and off the topic YOU chose, it makes most denied Wikipedia edits look well-sourced.

The only reason people ask you to move on is because your arguments are not well informed or well reasoned. Ain't nobody got time fo that.

EDIT: Speaking of which, check out his post back in the thread he said he was leaving after being asked to leave:

BrewDog said:
If I get banned because I'm a libertarian and support Gary Johnson for President, then I guess you guys win.

Here's your liar report.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-po...story.html

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-...-combined/
Forum meltdown imminent!

Libertarian hamster (or is it liberarian small L?):
:hamster3:
 
Slim Shady said:
What are you thoughts on Nigel Farage and Brexit?
I liked Nigel. I was rooting for him.

And the day of the Brexit vote, I was pinned to the computer watching the news unfold. I'm not sure why I was so fascinated by Brexit other than I hoped the UK would break away from the EU. I like sovereignty. I like the English, even though they can be huge dicks, I like them much. I love liberty. And I didn't think they had liberty under the EU.

And no, it's not my business no more than I think it's the Brits' business when they comment on our gun laws. But I was still rooting for Brexit.
 
So, you guys don't like my links to Trump flip flopping?

Then Google "Trump lies." There's 69,200,000 hits. I'm offshore and my internet is 2G. So research it yourself. Or don't. Hell, like Reagan if you want to. I used to. Or you could also google Iran/Contra and see what that was about. Or stick your head in the dirt.

I'm not your professor.
 

Slim Shady

Ostrich
Gold Member
I know about Iran/Contra.

I loved it when RP mentioned it in the 2012 debates and shut up the whole room. It was great.

It still has nothing to do with the war we are fighting right now.

"Trump lies" --> Most of those fact checks need to be fact checked, or take the letter of the words literally without understanding context or the spirit.

But even if he is "lying" it doesn't matter. Read all of my other posts.

You have not responded to a single one, except for referring to Brexit. Respond to those points and then we can have a discussion.

Open challenge to BrewDog to respond to my posts
 
"So, you guys don't like my links to Trump flip flopping?
Then Google "Trump lies." There's 69,200,000 hits. I'm offshore and my internet is 2G. So research it yourself. Or don't. Hell, like Reagan if you want to. I used to. Or you could also google Iran/Contra and see what that was about. Or stick your head in the dirt.
I'm not your professor."

"Trump's stupid, you guys! He's like... dumb and shit. Just like Reagan! I'm not gonna tell you why. Go look it up."


You can't possibly think this is convincing anyone.
 

Rush87

Ostrich
BrewDog said:
So, you guys don't like my links to Trump flip flopping?

Then Google "Trump lies." There's 69,200,000 hits. I'm offshore and my internet is 2G. So research it yourself. Or don't. Hell, like Reagan if you want to. I used to. Or you could also google Iran/Contra and see what that was about. Or stick your head in the dirt.

I'm not your professor.
If your links are accurate, Gary Johnson lies more often than he tells the truth. Why do you support a liar?
 
AneroidOcean said:
EDIT: Speaking of which, check out his post back in the thread he said he was leaving after being asked to leave:


Forum meltdown imminent!
So, your wish is that I get banned for disagreeing with you politically? That's a very courageous way of handling things. If someone disagrees, then rally to ban them from the discussion. Perhaps someone will throw the racist card next. I'm not sure how they would, but it's always a way to shut someone up. It's the same tactic. Just shout someone down and boot them out if you don't agree. Cupcake Generation at its finest.

And again, have I asked you to leave this libertarian thread for disagreeing? In fact, you came into this discussion freely. And I welcome your views, even though you're wrong. But I would never ask for you to be banned because you have a differing opinion.

But again, libertarians love freedom, whereas, others just want everyone else to shut up or go away. Or be FORCED away. That's not my ideology. And I won't acquiesce because I'm on the right side of liberty.
 
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