Location Independent Lawyering - new business model for achieving freedom
- Thread starter alphascout
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This is a topic of interest for me too. I just graduated from a dc area school and am at a big firm. One blog I found was nomadlaw.com, but it appears to be down now. Perhaps a more realistic approach is to find a niche area where you live, and systematize things so that all the work is mostly autopilot. Hire a paralegal. This might give you the freedom to travel for say a month at a time. The tricky part is finding the niche and getting the clients.
Btw if any of you have an electrical engineering degree and a law degree and want a job at a big law firm in the dc office, pm me. Standard dc area salary scale afaik.
Btw if any of you have an electrical engineering degree and a law degree and want a job at a big law firm in the dc office, pm me. Standard dc area salary scale afaik.
Well Op you said you are figuring out what type of career to do, and your main aim is to be location independent.
There are plenty of other careers/jobs where you can work from anywhere and make good cash
There are plenty of other careers/jobs where you can work from anywhere and make good cash
Nom_De_Guerre
Pigeon
alphascout said:
I think you need to re-assess why you want to go to law school. What are you life goals? If your main life goal is to be location independent, being a lawyer is probably a bad idea. It is a profession that depends largely on face to face personal interactions. You build up a client base over years of connections with business contacts and, often, family and friends. You simply can’t build those relationships over time.
Also, as a profession, the main advantage that a lawyer has over, say a website selling forms for wills and trusts, is that lawyers have a monopoly on being able to represent someone in court. This is something of an over simplification, but not much. You don’t need to go to law school to advise how to structure a deal. You don’t need to go to law school to provide estate planning. You don’t need to go to law school to know how to file a patent. In fact, law school doesn’t teach you how to do any of those things. You only learn through going out and practicing. If you are in another country, you just can’t represent someone in court. And you can’t learn how to do all the other things that lawyers do without going to a law firm.
Now, one thing you can do is work for a law firm and then get transferred overseas. I know this one kid who worked at a big Texas firm, went in-house, and got transferred to Buenos Aires. He’s making $200k and living like a god. But he’s not location independent. He’s just making bank in a awesome place.
If you really want location independence, I would suggest a different career. Or, instead of spending the next three years of your life in lectures, go build a business. And, in all honesty, the world doesn’t need another lawyer.
My friend is an experienced laywer and what he told me is that clients and relationships with them are everything. Being location independent won't help you with that. Most of his clients come through referalls and such.
He also told me you should only be a lawyer if you truly love it, otherwise the job is hard to handle and will make you miserable. He has a passion for it though, and he loves it.
He also told me you should only be a lawyer if you truly love it, otherwise the job is hard to handle and will make you miserable. He has a passion for it though, and he loves it.
alphascout
Sparrow
I can see relationships and clients being everything when we are talking about a flooded market with 2 equally competent lawyers, each charging $250/hour each. Obviously clients are going to take the one who has the better reputation. The existing situation in a flooded market is with too many lawyers all charging roughly the same, its completely normal that what differentiates them is as you put it reputation and client relationships.
But what if one lawyer charges 30$/hour Online vs. 250$ Face to Face, and they both have the exact same degree/BAR qualifications?
This, imho, is a fundamental shift in the market.
it can even be done via webcam.
Would it really make sense from the customer's perspective to hire the far more expensive lawyer in all cases? Would the client really be willing to pay the extra 220$/hour for the supposed reputational benefit? Does the face-to-face lawyer really add 220$/hour extra in value?
Conceivably the client could go to the online lawyer for most of the work/questions, and should things happen to reach the litigation stage, bring things to the expensive lawyer. But from what I've read, things rarely escalate up to going to court. its like 1% of the time. Or if its something particularly sensitive/confidential/expensive, then the face to face lawyer is for sure the way to go. But otherwise, why not go for the much cheaper option?
imagine 20h of work:
20h X $250 = $5000
20h X $30 = $600
that is huge, $4400 difference in cost. If we are talking about an issue that has millions at stake, obviously your going to go based on reputation. But lets say $8 000 is at issue. Are you really going to go for the guy who will cost you $5000? seems kind of idiotic.
Anyway, this is all hypothetical, need to run some market tests to see if there is actual demand and whether the much lower price is enough to offset the face-to-face benefits for potential clients. Maybe programming is the way to go for me, but to me that seems much more likely to be outsourced to Russia, etc... whereas the lawyer HAS to be licensed in the given country/state, making online lawyering, in my eyes anyway, much more sustainable in the long run then say becoming a programmer. The lawyer has a state-enforced monopoly on providing legal advice in a given area; the programmer has no such monopoly.
I may not pursue this, but I have yet to hear conclusive answers about why it can't be done. I understand all the stuff about the current industry being based on reputation, etc... but to me this is all precisely because lawyers have not yet been willing to set up virtual law practices. Is it not possible for an online lawyer to also build a good reputation over the years, just like any other lawyer on online based business? Basically, the market has not changed yet, Everyone is still charging standard high lawyer rates. But that hardly means that it wont change in the future. Small law seems to me to be one of the best online businesses to build, with only 3 years of studies to invest with the potential for making sustainable high income online for the next X years. And you get to be your own boss. Your "inventory" is basically your knowledge/access to books. Plus you get to learn about law, which is in itself useful for business. I'm really not seeing the downside except the high tuition.
I've already read news articles about outsourcing taking place at the large corporate firms, where they are outsourcing the legal work to India rather then giving it to junior lawyers. Why not just take it one further, and use the ability to outsource work as a means to great location independent income via a small firm based in no location in particular. Much better than say, being an English teacher for 7$/hour in south America, why not be an online lawyer for 30-50$/hour and live on the beach in Asia?
But what if one lawyer charges 30$/hour Online vs. 250$ Face to Face, and they both have the exact same degree/BAR qualifications?
This, imho, is a fundamental shift in the market.
it can even be done via webcam.
Would it really make sense from the customer's perspective to hire the far more expensive lawyer in all cases? Would the client really be willing to pay the extra 220$/hour for the supposed reputational benefit? Does the face-to-face lawyer really add 220$/hour extra in value?
Conceivably the client could go to the online lawyer for most of the work/questions, and should things happen to reach the litigation stage, bring things to the expensive lawyer. But from what I've read, things rarely escalate up to going to court. its like 1% of the time. Or if its something particularly sensitive/confidential/expensive, then the face to face lawyer is for sure the way to go. But otherwise, why not go for the much cheaper option?
imagine 20h of work:
20h X $250 = $5000
20h X $30 = $600
that is huge, $4400 difference in cost. If we are talking about an issue that has millions at stake, obviously your going to go based on reputation. But lets say $8 000 is at issue. Are you really going to go for the guy who will cost you $5000? seems kind of idiotic.
Anyway, this is all hypothetical, need to run some market tests to see if there is actual demand and whether the much lower price is enough to offset the face-to-face benefits for potential clients. Maybe programming is the way to go for me, but to me that seems much more likely to be outsourced to Russia, etc... whereas the lawyer HAS to be licensed in the given country/state, making online lawyering, in my eyes anyway, much more sustainable in the long run then say becoming a programmer. The lawyer has a state-enforced monopoly on providing legal advice in a given area; the programmer has no such monopoly.
I may not pursue this, but I have yet to hear conclusive answers about why it can't be done. I understand all the stuff about the current industry being based on reputation, etc... but to me this is all precisely because lawyers have not yet been willing to set up virtual law practices. Is it not possible for an online lawyer to also build a good reputation over the years, just like any other lawyer on online based business? Basically, the market has not changed yet, Everyone is still charging standard high lawyer rates. But that hardly means that it wont change in the future. Small law seems to me to be one of the best online businesses to build, with only 3 years of studies to invest with the potential for making sustainable high income online for the next X years. And you get to be your own boss. Your "inventory" is basically your knowledge/access to books. Plus you get to learn about law, which is in itself useful for business. I'm really not seeing the downside except the high tuition.
I've already read news articles about outsourcing taking place at the large corporate firms, where they are outsourcing the legal work to India rather then giving it to junior lawyers. Why not just take it one further, and use the ability to outsource work as a means to great location independent income via a small firm based in no location in particular. Much better than say, being an English teacher for 7$/hour in south America, why not be an online lawyer for 30-50$/hour and live on the beach in Asia?
alphascout
Sparrow
Nom_De_Guerre said:
How many lawyers actually go to court? and how often to do they go? From what i've read, its like 1-5%. Things mostly get settled out of court and a lot of legal work is not court based. There is no reason why an online lawyer can't just refer cases that go to court to a live lawyer.
the main advantage of a lawyer is that they have the legal right to give legal advice, which others don't have. Sure, someone else can draft a patent. But can they do it legally? Or will they get shut down by state authorities? Last I checked you have to be a patent agent or patent attorney to draft a patent for someone else.
Do you think a client would rather hire an online lawyer from school X who charges 30$/hour and talks to via webcam or the live lawyer from school X who charges 200$/hour who he talks to in his fancy downtown office?
I realize the current legal industry is under siege by outsourcing, lawyers are losing their jobs right and left. But maybe the solution of today's young lawyer is to embrace change, becoming location indepedent lawyer, rather than waiting for most of the jobs to be shipped to India or wherever by bigger firms. Better to ride the outsourcing wave-trend as a little guy and outsource yourself rather than to be stuck in old 1950s style business model and get swallowed by it.
On the make it in an international law firm --> transfer somewhere nice route. This is ultra competitive and much more risky imho than trying to become a location independent lawyer.
(1) ILF--> Abroad route requires: (1) 3 years of law school; (2) being highly competitive during those 3 years, so necessarily reqyuiring investing more time studying, doing extra curriculars, etc...; (3) spending about 2-5 years in a big firm working 70h/week, (4) learning the foreign language fluently of where i want to be transferred (which will probably take at least another 2 years before law school).
so basically that is huge investment and the odds of all pieces falling into place are low.
VS.
(2) Location independent lawyer requires: (1) 3 years of law school, (2) dont need good grades in particular, can focus on starting other online businesses/diversifying during law school; (3) balls to try a new business model.
since i already have the balls, the risk/time suck is just way lower.
people need to stop looking at school like its some set-path guarentee. its not. you have to look at school like any other start up. its not an "investment" either. an investment is an ASSET, school is not an asset, therefore it is not an investment. you cannot sell your degree like you can stocks, a house, etc.... this is BS scam rhetoric by banks trying to slave students into mortgage payments on their education which is retarded. I see law school as a requirement to a potentially lucrative start-up with huge benefits/long term potential. thats it.
Nom_De_Guerre
Pigeon
Litigators with cases in state court go to court a couple times per week. They don't go to TRIAL often, but they have to show up to argue various motions, mostly discovery bullshit but often motions for summary judgment and the like. In federal court, it's mostly done with paper, but you have to be available to show up if the judge wants to hear oral arguments.
My point about patents isn't that you don't have to be a lawyer to do patent work. You do. But it's not a skill that you learn in law school. Law school teaches you nothing. As a lawyer fresh off passing the bar, you can immediately go to court, assuming you can find someone willing to pay you. You can't do any other legal work, because you're not prepared to do it. You need to work under an experienced lawyer learning how to be a lawyer.
But the bigger point is: WHY THE FUCK DO YOU WANT TO GO TO LAW SCHOOL? There are other, better, simpler ways to make money that don't require three years of your life and $160k before you get to start learning how to do your job. You go to law school because you want to be a litigator, or corporate counsel, or patent attorney, or slip and fall guy. You don't go to law school to be an entrepreneur. If you want to be an entrepreneur, just be an entrepreneur. Law school will NOT help you do that.
Also, please take this as constructive criticism as opposed to trying to flame you. Your ideas are valid, and I'm sure some guy in India will make money undercutting lawyers, because the bar has done nothing to protect the profession. But I just think it doesn't make sense for you to spend three years doing what you don't want to do so that you can do what you want to do.
My point about patents isn't that you don't have to be a lawyer to do patent work. You do. But it's not a skill that you learn in law school. Law school teaches you nothing. As a lawyer fresh off passing the bar, you can immediately go to court, assuming you can find someone willing to pay you. You can't do any other legal work, because you're not prepared to do it. You need to work under an experienced lawyer learning how to be a lawyer.
But the bigger point is: WHY THE FUCK DO YOU WANT TO GO TO LAW SCHOOL? There are other, better, simpler ways to make money that don't require three years of your life and $160k before you get to start learning how to do your job. You go to law school because you want to be a litigator, or corporate counsel, or patent attorney, or slip and fall guy. You don't go to law school to be an entrepreneur. If you want to be an entrepreneur, just be an entrepreneur. Law school will NOT help you do that.
Also, please take this as constructive criticism as opposed to trying to flame you. Your ideas are valid, and I'm sure some guy in India will make money undercutting lawyers, because the bar has done nothing to protect the profession. But I just think it doesn't make sense for you to spend three years doing what you don't want to do so that you can do what you want to do.
Nom_De_Guerre said:
Everything this guy says is accurate. 1% or so of cases actually go to trial, but you are in court all the time.
Whenever anyone asks me about law school, the first thing I say is don't go. There are much easier ways to make money that are less stressful. Unless you absolutely love it you will not be having fun. The good times are good, but the bad times are absolutely miserable.
alphascout
Sparrow
Nom_De_Guerre said:
thanks for the input, very much appreciated. I am 100% taking what you are saying as constructive criticism.
so basically what your saying is (1) they don't teach you anything you can charge for in law school/passing the bar(other than stuff that involves going to court, which you can't really charge much for anyway) and that, (2) the only way to learn the stuff that you can make money off of online, is through apprenticeship with a lawyer for several years?
like writing patents, drafting contracts, drafting sales terms, drafting leases, drafting wills, etc. There is no really no other way to learn this stuff? there are no books, classes in law school, etc? all of a lawyers work that does not involve appearing in court (or most of it) is all secret trade knowledge? i honestly though law was something in books and, in theory anyway if you spend the time to learn it, available to all. That fact alone is frankly shocking to me. I had no idea legal practice was so similar to say the high tech industry with trade secrets with firms monopolizing secret trade knowledge... I thought they taught you how to give legal advice in law school... weird. if your not learning about law for 3 years, what exactly do you learn in law school then??? gender studies?
how on earth do big firms outsource work to india then? confusing...
thanks for clearing that up, glad i made this post, i probably will not go to law school, even if free with scholarships.
alphascout said:
But why do you want to go to law school and then earn $30 to $50/hour. Why not forget about law school and do something simpler AND something that is much more conducive to a mobile lifestyle?
The easiest one is website design. Yes, the world is over run with web designers and developers, yes they can get it done offshore for $10/hr etc..etc. Yet, there is still a huge market and a huge demand for these services. It is by no means saturated. There are millions and millions of really crappy websites out there that need redesigning. The market is limitless. There is way more work than you can handle. Establish a client base, it will take you two to three years of work. Give the websites away for cheap. If their business depends on having a website, they will come back to you for extra work. A few changes here and there, new products, new marketing materials etc.. etc. Bill them $35/hr and when you have more work than you can handle, outsource it.
Once you have a business' website under your control, you have them by the balls, they will come back to you for everything. They will trust you for everything. Online marketing, social media marketing, e-commerce, etc.. etc.
alphascout
Sparrow
ManAbout: i'm good at academics. law seems like something interesting to study in and of itself, useful for business, and if i could get a scholarship making it cheap, then why not? i would be very happy earning 30-50$ online doing something sustainable for the long term. moving abroad, but being able to just pack up and move wherever i want as political/economic situation changes in different states is key.
and i nievely thought online legal work was something that was not saturated due to the high entry bar set by the high education requirement and passing the bar requirement, ensuring decent salary while living abroad for years to come. not because of secret trade knowledge barrier.
I honestly though the reason no one was doing the online/live abroad lawyer thing was because of BAR restrictions, people having high student debts so they cant afford to work for cheap and had to work for big firms to pay back loans, and people who go to law school being generally risk averse/non-innovative types.
and i nievely thought online legal work was something that was not saturated due to the high entry bar set by the high education requirement and passing the bar requirement, ensuring decent salary while living abroad for years to come. not because of secret trade knowledge barrier.
I honestly though the reason no one was doing the online/live abroad lawyer thing was because of BAR restrictions, people having high student debts so they cant afford to work for cheap and had to work for big firms to pay back loans, and people who go to law school being generally risk averse/non-innovative types.
alphascout said:
Whoa, whoa, whoa. If you think you will be learning anything of practical value in law school, do A LOT more due diligence before deciding to go. Some schools offer a few clinical courses and you can do internships and have summer jobs, but the course work itself is highly theoretical and basically useless unless you want to be an academic. You can't even pass a bar exam with the stuff they teach you in law school (you'll have to pay a few thousand dollars for a bar prep course).
Law school is essentially a brainwashing operation that teaches you how to think like a lawyer. As other have said, it does not teach you the practice of law. There is a reason it is called law practice. Legal knowledge is not a "trade secret," but there is an endless amount of minutiae, procedural issues, legal strategy, etc. that you simply cannot get from reading books and taking classes. It's just like riding a bicycle: there is no way you can learn unless you do it.
highandtight
Sparrow
You're receiving spot on advice in this thread. Clearly a couple of these commenters have spent some time in this field. I'll echo these comments and add a few things:
1) You're very unlikely to create a location independent setup, at least right away. It's possible that you could develop a relationship with a firm/company and they would allow you to roam about so long as you were consistently available. Sort of like a staff attorney/project attorney/consultant deal. This is the closest you are likely to get to being truly location independent, and it would take a few years to build the right relationships. Also, you would be easily expendable in down times and have little opportunity for advancement.
2) Corporate/transactional work is better for this than litigation, as others are suggesting.
3) In the big firm context, you could definitely build some skills in a transactional area (e.g., project finance) and then work out of a foreign office. This isn't location independent per se, but you could snag a spot in some pretty desirable locations in Asia or in Western Europe. Pretty tough to make this work in second and third tier cities, though.
4) Alternatively, you could probably go in house with a foreign company that has significant U.S. operations, or at a U.S. company's foreign outpost. Would take some doing but I've seen this happen.
At the end of the day, if you want to build a location independent lifestyle, law is not a good fit. I struggle with this all of the time, but it's just the nature of this field. Also, aside from the location aspect, the law is, as they say, a jealous mistress; it can be tough to find free time in this field, and it's easy to become complacent and choose to just relax rather than chase tail when you are working 80 hours a week.
1) You're very unlikely to create a location independent setup, at least right away. It's possible that you could develop a relationship with a firm/company and they would allow you to roam about so long as you were consistently available. Sort of like a staff attorney/project attorney/consultant deal. This is the closest you are likely to get to being truly location independent, and it would take a few years to build the right relationships. Also, you would be easily expendable in down times and have little opportunity for advancement.
2) Corporate/transactional work is better for this than litigation, as others are suggesting.
3) In the big firm context, you could definitely build some skills in a transactional area (e.g., project finance) and then work out of a foreign office. This isn't location independent per se, but you could snag a spot in some pretty desirable locations in Asia or in Western Europe. Pretty tough to make this work in second and third tier cities, though.
4) Alternatively, you could probably go in house with a foreign company that has significant U.S. operations, or at a U.S. company's foreign outpost. Would take some doing but I've seen this happen.
At the end of the day, if you want to build a location independent lifestyle, law is not a good fit. I struggle with this all of the time, but it's just the nature of this field. Also, aside from the location aspect, the law is, as they say, a jealous mistress; it can be tough to find free time in this field, and it's easy to become complacent and choose to just relax rather than chase tail when you are working 80 hours a week.
alphascout
Sparrow
thanks for everyone's input. i think its clear that there are a number of lawyers or law students on this board.
One last hypothetical question.
Let's say that I actually go to law school, spend a couple of years learning the ropes from a law firm, say in patent law. Is there any reason why I can't open up my own intellectual property solo law practice online, file patents/register copyrights/register TMs for people, charge 50$/hour, and live a location independent lifestyle?
One last hypothetical question.
Let's say that I actually go to law school, spend a couple of years learning the ropes from a law firm, say in patent law. Is there any reason why I can't open up my own intellectual property solo law practice online, file patents/register copyrights/register TMs for people, charge 50$/hour, and live a location independent lifestyle?
Alpha,
Patent law is my practice area. First, do you have an engineering degree or other science degree? Secondly, patents and trademark/copyright are two different practice areas. You need a tech background for the former. You need to think about who your clients will be? It is highly unlikely that any client you work with at a firm is going to go with you if you leave; no partner is going to let you take their book of business. Also, a couple of years training is not really enough to learn the ropes. No big company is going to give business to a guy with 2 years of experience. I have heard of solos doing work for major companies like IBM but they have had many many years of experience.
Also, suppose you need to go for an interview at the uspto and you're in Asia or Romania banging broads...then what? You might be able to get small clients like solo inventors, but they do not have much $ to spend typically, and of course you also have to collect what's owed. Receivables are not to be underestimated. I think there are far better ways to go location independent.
Patent law is my practice area. First, do you have an engineering degree or other science degree? Secondly, patents and trademark/copyright are two different practice areas. You need a tech background for the former. You need to think about who your clients will be? It is highly unlikely that any client you work with at a firm is going to go with you if you leave; no partner is going to let you take their book of business. Also, a couple of years training is not really enough to learn the ropes. No big company is going to give business to a guy with 2 years of experience. I have heard of solos doing work for major companies like IBM but they have had many many years of experience.
Also, suppose you need to go for an interview at the uspto and you're in Asia or Romania banging broads...then what? You might be able to get small clients like solo inventors, but they do not have much $ to spend typically, and of course you also have to collect what's owed. Receivables are not to be underestimated. I think there are far better ways to go location independent.
alphascout
Sparrow
what do you guys think of this?
online arbitration. i wonder how much business they get...
http://www.net-arb.com/
online arbitration. i wonder how much business they get...
http://www.net-arb.com/
alphascout said:
I lol'ed and seriously wondered if you were trolling.
Would any business owner (and there are a lot here) use that piece of shit service to resolve a dispute?
How would you enforce the arbitration award?
The "About Us" page doesn't list the most important information about an arbitration - namely the arbitrator!
Their line about the "law varying" is laughably silly. In the U.S., most arbitration are going to be done under the rules of AAA or JAMS.
That site gets basic stuff wrong.
Anyhow, can't tell if you are trolling or if you're one of those guys who is so sure that he has found some revolutionary idea that you're just going to ignore the very guys whose advice you seek.
Law is serious business, and when I have to hire lawyers (i.e., I'm also a consumer of legal services), I don't want some party boy whose interest in my case is based on how many cases of Corona he can buy for an hour's wages.
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