Long-distance courtship

GWYW2015

Woodpecker
There used to be a blog (now defunct) called "The No Nonsense Man" by Marc Rudov (correct spelling?) There were a number of useful relationship articles, including one that examined the vast amount of unnecessary time couples waste by dating with the usual & prolonged 'getting to know someone' approach. This still stands out in my mind:

"Three weeks" is all that it takes, if the couple have a mature attitude, to determine if they are respective marriage material.

So your 10 weekends (20 days) is sufficient. Make the time together count, and be upfront with each other about where you both want the relationship to go, and why.

Regarding the online aspect, Max Roscoe is correct about actually having to truly 'get to know each other', since your dates can't revolve around the typical external (distracting) stimuli.

I believe that many marriages fail due to the couple not laying a solid foundation while dating; most of their 'together time' being focused on "having fun"/being compatible because they share the same taste in [insert recreation]/showing each other off to their friends/etc.

Proverbs 14:15
Proverbs 22:3
Ephesians 5:15-16
A few years back I made this same statement, that if I didn't know after three weeks if a woman was someone I could marry then I was asking the wrong questions. I can see where this would seem foolish but after meeting the woman that became my wife online, I asked her to marry me after 18 days and without meeting in person. We have been married over five years now and I married a gem that I appreciate to the hilt.

There is no magic number of days of course but since that time I have read stories of people who got married in a lot less time that we did (< 8 weeks) and were together for decades. I hope that some men can find some hope in that because while it can take a loooong time to meet someone, it can also take a short time if you are both on the same page. I don't claim to have known every thing about her but didn't want to and that can just drag things out. I got the information I needed, basically she was a Christian, and that was that.
 

GWYW2015

Woodpecker
Like I mentioned, it's harder to get face-time in when you're doing long-distance. This draws out the process considerably. It took you "2+ years" to accomplish the equivalent of 3-6 months of in-person courtship.
I relied on webcamming for face time as that's all we could do from America and the Philippines. It always felt normal and we asked questions, perhaps questions that wouldn't have been asked had we been able to physically be together, which allowed us to get married a lot faster.
I will say that even doing regular video calls has its limits for really getting to know a person. But it does keep the romantic feelings going... Lol

The problem with text is that you can have a meeting of the minds, but if you have never actually met, you don't know if you have actual physical chemistry. You don't need to act on it right away, but you must have it, for later.

I've known couples who spent many many hours in online chatting and video calls, to share and connect, but when they finally met, the chemistry was just not there, to their great mutual sadness and disappointment.
That would be a real bummer for sure. I have heard that as well but now that I think about it, the Filipina I married and I have the same chemistry as when all we could do was Skype twice a day. I never expected it would be different when we met and then later were married and living together. Maybe for us the key was devoting about four hours a day in communication?
 

GWYW2015

Woodpecker
Red flags are apparent from the first time you meet in the flesh, if you choose to see them beyond the lure of flesh. They are harder to see on video calls and harder to see on text messages. If talking online you should be on videos calls and meet them quickly. It is not fare on someone if you spend a year talking to someone only to find you don't like them.

I don't believe that a long time is required to get to know someone sufficiently for marriage. My grandmother, who was of New Julfa stock, met her husband three times before getting married and mainly corresponded by letter. My other grandparents mainly got to know each other by letter during WWII. I got engaged to one girl after about six weeks - her parents met three times before marriage. The parents of the girl I trusted the most were married by arrangement, when her mother was 16. All of these marriages were superior than the 10-year co-habitation marriages of today. Simple because the participants were still of a tradition that promoted virtues that are conducive to marriage; and buttressed by the fact it was difficult to divorce; and talk of divorce would lead to family and friends policing them back into the marriage.

Online dating should not be a part of our culture. It should be the reserve of Antifa. The only reason it exists is because of the gutting of traditional bonds and customs. Now is not the time for purism. Now is the time to make the best of what you have to start re-building a society that can pass itself on to the next generation. It is not ideal to use online dating; to peruse for wives abroad; to marry a Pino, Africa, or Latina; to leave your homeland and so on. But it is obvious why those paths are chosen in the present. They are a means to an ends and a path of little resistance.

Our current culture is dominated by extroverts. They are the loudest, least introspective and ones with the most shame. The current society is not particularly conducive to introverts, particularly when it comes to jumping like a poodle through the hoops of dopamine addicted women. I feel there are a great number of men who would have been decent catches 200 years ago who are now incel or adjacent, simply because they are reserved and don't know how to stimulate superficial women or open more bookish women. These men have always existed and they used to have marriages eased their way if not arranged, to women who were happy to marry them. For these type of men, online is a good substitute for the decay of tradition.

You have the capacity to love anyone. It is a matter of whether you choose to do so and continue to work with them and them you. So long as you can achieve that - you should seek marriage by whichever means you think you can. There was a thread, which may have been deleted, by a user by the name of Truth Tiger describing his experiences on dating sites. He reviewed a number of religious ones and described some of the women he conversed with on there. Some of them were the real deal - the type of women most here are seeking. I took a look on some of the sites and found several. One was a 21yo girl in Ireland who wanted to live on a farm and have children like clockwork. Another was looking for a man to raise her under the patriarchy. If you are in The US in particular I think you should be on those sites. That I can remember Christian Mingle, Catholic Match.
To be honest, I feel like meeting a girl online that lives in another city (not via a dating site) is a great way to start a relationship.

This is because it removes all symptoms of the big city like transcience and fakeness. If a girl is interested in you she'll make the time to msg or video chat, and that time you guys spend talking will be quality time getting to know each other compared to day gaming some random girl on the street or meeting at a bar, etc where everyone is fake and misbehaves without consequence.

Finally meeting in person after chatting online for a few months is always interesting because you've already built a genuine rapport.

Sites for meeting or talking are good.
Sites for dating are bad and must be avoided as they carry all the drawbacks of a nightclub.
I agree with you very much that it doensn't have to take a long time to suffiently know someone is a good marriage candidate. For me the key is sufficiently and what that means. Sufficiently doesn't have to mean knowing their entire past and what they believe about absolutely everything. I think some expats get hung up on that, especially the second or third time around. I think a guy will need to be married to find out a lot of things they'd like to know beforehand, I just don't think that is realistic.
 

Max Roscoe

Kingfisher
the Filipina I married and I have the same chemistry as when all we could do was Skype twice a day. I never expected it would be different when we met and then later were married and living together. Maybe for us the key was devoting about four hours a day in communication?
Just curious a) how/where you met this woman and b) Where did you decide to live?

I met a couple of very nice women over there. One I tried to keep in touch with but she was only nominally Christian and somewhat immature. I am in touch with a couple of others.

One of my biggest concerns is bringing a feminine foreign woman over to the same society and culture that ruined my own (white) women, but at the same time moving abroad, while it would give me a higher quality of life and I could probably retire there tommorrow, is a big step and I'm not sure I want to abandon all my friends and family in America. I could also keep my US job and would have a very large income there.

Also, this could be a little personal but cap you speak to virginity in regards to Filipina women?
My one serious relationship there was with a girl who had one partner before me. While I would obviously prefer a woman who saved herself for her husband, and did meet a couple of virgins there, there are a couple of others in their mid to late 20s who tell me they have had only one prior partner, and one is a very strong prospect.

My thought is none of us are perfect, and the reality is an attractive feminine woman will have a hard time making it to 30 years old without ever doing the deed. That's more a critique of the modern world pushing us to postpone marriage past the historically normal time of pubescence through around age 22, to late 20s or more ( I believe it is now 27 in the US despite being 20-22 for basically all of American history).

Also, just being realistic, we are living in fallen times and statistically only a minority of men are going to be able to marry a virgin bride. At the same time, there is a difference between holy matrimony and marrying a chick, with most men doing the latter. To me, marrying a woman who is not a virgin falls somewhat short of holy matrimony and what is expected of it (that is why the girl wears a white veil, after all), and I feel strongly it's not something my ancestors would approve of.
 

GWYW2015

Woodpecker
Sure Max, I would be glad to reply.

I met my wife online. Believe it or not, my church pastor commiserated with me in my struggle with singleness and suggested overseas. He really was trying to help. He sent me an article of a guy who met a Filipina and made the disclaimer that while our situations were not exactly alike, he would show it to me and let me think it over. I read it and decided I had to try something I hadn't tried before, so I joined Christian Filipina. I didn't know where to even begin so I searched for Christian Filipina dating sites or something similar and that's where I landed. We were 9800 flight miles apart when I winked at her. I quickly went to Davao City Philippines, a mere 34 hour trip, to marry her (I had already proposed).

We live in Nebraska, USA, however, we have built a house in the Philippines to retire to. I am glad to hear you are in touch with a couple of others.

Your concerns are very valid. I was "only" 53 at the time so I had to petition her to come to America. As soon as the time is right, we want to retire in the Philippines. While I am sure my wife could be okay staying here until I died, I am not okay with that because I know how much she loves her family and I have embraced them too. So mentally, I have already begun the mental gymnastics of living overseas, and it is a big move to make.

While you'll need to trust a Filipina if you bring her here, you get to decide if she has the kind of values to be committed to you. I say that because if she is a Christian and she knows what she is getting into regarding western culture and you have talked about your concerns for her over here and are good to her, then I have a hard time believeing you wouldn't be okay bringing her here. I have not noticed any issues with my wife. I sometimes ask her if any man is giving her trouble or getting fresh and she says no. She is very conservative, which I love about her. If you choose well, like other Fil-Am couples I know where we live, I would think you'd be fine.

Financially, that would depend on your age and situation. With the much lower cost of living, two thousand a month would be very sufficient. With our house there almost paid off, 1500 a month is plenty. Family is a proper concern. My mother is 87 and lives with us (loves my wife too) and we won't retire to the Philippines until she passes. My wife promised her that. However, my father and sister passed awhile back, I don't have children of my own, and we have so few family members here. As for friends, I must be unfriendly or something because other than my pastor I don't really have many close friends. They seemed to vanish when they got a girlfriend or got married. But having a good amount of family and friends to leave behind would be an adjustment, depending on how easy it was going to be to travel back and forth.

I appreciate your question about virginity. It does seem there is a lot of sex before marriage in the Philippines but it may be that way everywhere. That is why I advocate (I know this won't be popular) getting married ASAP. 18 sounds good to me unless it can be done a little sooner. It is very difficult to endure being single if that means not having sex. Postponing marriage until later like is happening today is a recipe for disaster. I don't know if it's the influence of men going overseas or difficulty with birth control or men pressuring the women into sex but there seems to be many single Filipinas with children, so there are many who are not virgins.

Just my opinion, but wanting a virgin is a good thing to want, but wanting to be married is important too and if they conflict then one would need to consider other factors like whether or not that is ever going to happen (finding a virgin to marry), if she is telling the truth, how many men, going into details about the relationships, etc. No doubt, waiting until marriage is God's design, that's what he wants, that's what he tells us to do, but he also tells us this (and wants our parents to tell us this) when we are a lot younger. "Rejoice with the wife of your youth" comes to mind and "To avoid fornication let every man have his own wife and let every woman have her own husband" also. Also, if the man isn't a virgin, it would not be fair to expect that out of a wife, and I honestly do not mean that in a bad way. If he is a virgin, wonderful, and he has every right to want that, but I do not think EXPECTING, a virgin is a good idea. Unless they are teenagers, one of them likely won't be a virgin but that doesn't mean God can't bless their marriage sexually. God wants good sex between married people. It is his idea and is for more than procreation.

From day one I would want to make the marriage as holy as possible, like you pointed out, being realistic, and taking it one day at a time.
 
I'm surprised this topic isn't a lot more active, but then again it could be due to most people being averse to LD relationships these days.

But from what I've come to learn, for the most part, especially with LDR's that women have this strong tendency to not take the time you might spend away from her either traveling back home as "part of your relationship". If you visit her for 6 months and then leave for 3 months let's say to fix some stuff in your home country, your relationship in her mind will only be worth "6 months", and there is usually the belief that the guy is inevitably cheating on her.

The commitment level on both sides, even when it gets hard to manage when large bouts of time are spent apart, is rarely mutual.
 

stugatz

Pelican
I know a man through my Catholic circle who is doing this - but his situation sort of requires it. He's legally blind, and most women as a result aren't very interested in him. (He is in a relationship with a woman halfway across the country, who I believe is also disabled.)

I don't know anyone completely able-bodied who is doing this. I myself would hesitate - but I'd be willing to give it a try. I'm not in a hurry to start dating average people again after it drained my finances for the better part of a decade.
 

GWYW2015

Woodpecker
I'm surprised this topic isn't a lot more active, but then again it could be due to most people being averse to LD relationships these days.

But from what I've come to learn, for the most part, especially with LDR's that women have this strong tendency to not take the time you might spend away from her either traveling back home as "part of your relationship". If you visit her for 6 months and then leave for 3 months let's say to fix some stuff in your home country, your relationship in her mind will only be worth "6 months", and there is usually the belief that the guy is inevitably cheating on her.

The commitment level on both sides, even when it gets hard to manage when large bouts of time are spent apart, is rarely mutual.
Am not saying everyone else should do this but I cut down the LDR timeline by committing to marry my wife from our short online communication. I went to meet her, married her, then eight months later she was here with me in America. We were quickly going to be husband and wife, then became husband and wife, and are still husband and wife almost six years later.

I agree though that all that time away can be problematic with waning desire or the threat of competition from other men who are or can get where she is.
 

kel

Ostrich
There's a couple of these bots suddenly, scraping for keywords and posting in a thread using those keywords but talking about porn and stuff. Strange stuff.
 
Has anyone tried a long-distance courtship with a Christian woman? I do mean a courtship that doesn't involve sexual intimacy.

I talked to my priest about this and he said it would be very difficult, since you really need to get to know the woman before deciding. Even if you were able to spend time with a woman for, say, 10 weekends, which in some cases would be difficult, is that enough to make a decision on whether to marry?
Hi Roosh,

I've had one long-distance courtship with a Christian woman, which lasted 2 years (with a 6 month gap in-between). Ultimately, she looked great in photos and video calls, but phones only give you a person's face, not their whole body, and not their mannerisms and non-verbal cues (my people met her on my behalf and were horrified with what they saw). There were a number of flags, predominantly God revealing His disapproval of her to me from nearly the outset before we became official, but I was stubborn and in rebellion.

I took a break out of fear of making the wrong step, but after getting rejected by another woman at the end of 6 months, I went right back to her. In the end, it failed because my family objected to us pursuing marriage. Letting her go was the hardest thing I ever did, but after one month of grieving, I was completely at peace because I knew I had made the right decision. She married someone else last month, and I am happy for her because I realize that getting with her would not keep me happy in the long run (she had a "difficult" personality, and I was a beta for tolerating it).

My advice to you, or anyone considering this path, is to identify a woman online whom you are interested in pursuing, and get to know her without any expectations, but with intentionality that it could lead to something serious. If the conversation progresses in terms of length and frequency and depth, and to other mediums and modes of communication (social media, apps, video calls, etc.), you may have a real shot at something special here. If so, DON'T do what I did and drag it out for months: find a way to meet her immediately in person. Go with one or two trusted friends or siblings, if possible, and meet her both alone and with your companions and hers so you can figure out if you want to pursue a life together or not. Most guys will say to go meet her alone, but I think bringing trusted advisors is valuable because they can see what your eyes may be too clouded to see; as well, you can see how she is in a group setting, and who her friends are and how they approach her. If you have a close relationship with your dad, I'd recommend bringing him, as tacky as our clown world would make it sound.

Among the Christian circles I am in, it seems that if the couple knew each other previously, then the courtship may be as short as 1 month before an engagement, with the wedding happening 3 to 9 months later (thus, courting+engagement+wedding, or CEW, all transpire in no more than one calendar year). If they didn't know each other previously, 3 months of courting seems fairly standard (though it honestly ranges from 1 to 6 months), with the wedding 6 to 12 months afterward (thus, CEW takes 1.5 years max, but 8 months is most typical from what I've seen).

This is not universal, but is true in my circles (white protestant Christians and ethnic protestant Christians). I find that those who marry the fastest are virgins with a limited past (whether they're 20 or 25 or 30 years old, male or female): if you know, you know, right? Personally, I think if you ask the right questions and she's willing to answer openly and honestly while asking questions back to you, you can progress to a good place within 6 weeks, assuming daily calls and texts.

(Note: I haven't told my story on here before, so I know that many things I said may not make sense, but I hope what I said is helpful in answering Roosh's question)

(Also, please note that it's been nearly 15 months since I've been single and awaiting God's willing for me. I know I did beta/unmanly things, but I believe I have grown past most of them, specifically the willingness to tolerate character flaws, which stemmed from my own neediness to not want to be alone. By honouring my family and God (through yielding my desire to be with her), I believe I was ultimately spared from a lifetime of pain and regret).
 
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