Lounge of Russian-Ukrainian War

Easy_C

Peacock
The government is big on paperwork and bureaucracy.
I have no doubt the NATO forces have a paper trail showing deliveries for every item sent from the west to Ukraine, just as they have well documented delivery notes on all the pallets of hundred dollar bills they shipped to the mideast.

The question is, where are those weapons and money TODAY?

Think about what I’m saying and how I said it. You’re not picking up what I’m putting down.
 

get2choppaaa

Hummingbird
Orthodox
The government is big on paperwork and bureaucracy.
I have no doubt the NATO forces have a paper trail showing deliveries for every item sent from the west to Ukraine, just as they have well documented delivery notes on all the pallets of hundred dollar bills they shipped to the mideast.

The question is, where are those weapons and money TODAY?

The west is shortsighted in its attempt to fix things with money or weapons. Even if the wars in Afghanistan or Ukraine could have been won by sending weaponry and money over there, the bigger issue than who wins the Afghan war or the Donbass conflict is what effect do those funds and materiel have over the next 30 years? A tank or plane or missile doesn't just stop working 6 months from now when the conflict ends.

A stinger missile given to anti-Soviet troops in the 1970s was used to bring down passenger jets decades later. What effect will billions of dollars, tanks, etc. have when given to the most corrupt country in Europe?
Max.....

They do indeed know exactly where those weapons are going. Easy is trying to point this out subtly with out giving too much away, but they know that these weapons are being proliferated among the Ukrainian Oligarchs and bureaucrats. They are aware that this will serve as a de-stabilizing force. What is obvious to you is indeed obvious to them.
The war in Afg was NEVER about winning it. There was no defined objective... only to serve the self licking icecream cone that is the .mi-industrial complex and get people at the top rich off of tax payer dollars.

The whole point of these wars is to feed off of chaos created. Create the conflict, solve the conflict, repeat.

When these things occur in the ME, we tend to care less about it, but being on Europe's door... well this changes the visitbility and the magnitude of scope.

These weapons will be proliferated among all the backchannels of Europe (many have already made themsevles all over the place in the ME as well) and also serve to have the .mil industrial complex a new project to develop as they flesh out the capabilities and limitations of their weapons systems against the peer-competitor military.
 

Max Roscoe

Ostrich
Orthodox Inquirer
I think I see the point: The west may not know where the weapons and money will eventually end up, but that is not the point. The point is to sew destruction and chaos.

Sort of like how in Operation Fast and Furious, the ATF facilitated illegal gun operations to Mexican cartels. There's no way of knowing where the guns will go after that. Perhaps the cartels hold them and use them to smuggle more drugs to the US. Perhaps some are sent to Venezuela for an insurrection there. Another is sold to a common thug in Mexico who will commit crimes. Another is used to murder a US Border Guard (how the scandal became public). Another makes its way into your community and is used in a variety of street crimes. The destination is not what is important; causing chaos and destruction is.

And there is no telling what bad actors the corrupt officials in Ukraine will be selling weaponry to, or who will be harmed by these weapons in the future, anywhere in the world.

Of course the potential for blowback is huge, but it never directly hurts the elites themselves. Even when it hurts their "interests" that is just another opportunity for them to grift and profit and maybe start another war.

I was seeing that blowback as shortsighted incompetence, but I suppose if one is truly that immoral, they really don't care who is hurt in their grand chess game.
 

Pointy Elbows

Kingfisher
Orthodox
I think I see the point: The west may not know where the weapons and money will eventually end up, but that is not the point. The point is to sew destruction and chaos.

Sort of like how in Operation Fast and Furious, the ATF facilitated illegal gun operations to Mexican cartels. There's no way of knowing where the guns will go after that. Perhaps the cartels hold them and use them to smuggle more drugs to the US. Perhaps some are sent to Venezuela for an insurrection there. Another is sold to a common thug in Mexico who will commit crimes. Another is used to murder a US Border Guard (how the scandal became public). Another makes its way into your community and is used in a variety of street crimes. The destination is not what is important; causing chaos and destruction is.

And there is no telling what bad actors the corrupt officials in Ukraine will be selling weaponry to, or who will be harmed by these weapons in the future, anywhere in the world.

Of course the potential for blowback is huge, but it never directly hurts the elites themselves. Even when it hurts their "interests" that is just another opportunity for them to grift and profit and maybe start another war.

I was seeing that blowback as shortsighted incompetence, but I suppose if one is truly that immoral, they really don't care who is hurt in their grand chess game.
Max, I think Easy C and Get2choppaa are our resident Artillery experts. They know more than the rest of us about the highlighted parts of text above. Your points are all accurate, save the highlighted parts, I am supposing. In the US, most Artillerymen (certainly all Arty officers) have very high clearance, as we had tactical nuke capability from ground/artillery systems for many years. Maybe there is some method that renders the highlighted portions inaccurate. I really don't know details. I have no personal knowledge of as much. What I say is assumed and could be inaccurate.
 

Max Roscoe

Ostrich
Orthodox Inquirer
Your points are all accurate, save the highlighted parts, I am supposing. In the US, most Artillerymen (certainly all Arty officers) have very high clearance, as we had tactical nuke capability from ground/artillery systems for many years. Maybe there is some method that renders the highlighted portions inaccurate. I really don't know details. I have no personal knowledge of as much. What I say is assumed and could be inaccurate.
>>>Sort of like how in Operation Fast and Furious, the ATF facilitated illegal gun operations to Mexican cartels. There's no way of knowing where the guns will go after that.

But that's not hypothesis. It happened. The guns given to the Mexican cartel made their way back to America, and were used to kill a US federal agent (that is the only way the story broke--the feds found the serial numbers on the gun used in the murder of a federal agent, and when one fed agency looked up the serial numbers they saw they were in an ATF database).


There is no telling the extent of the damage these guns caused. Since the Fast and Furious debacle was never fully investigated (Atty General Eric Holder was found in contempt of court for refusing to cooperate, given a slap on the wrist, and the case was dropped), we don't even know how many guns we are talking about, or how many people in America or abroad were murdered with these weapons.

What is going to stop a Mexican cartel dealer from selling a firearm to anyone? Not a thing.

Likewise with the pallets of cash delivered to the mideast. The money is in thousands of different hands at this point, likely used for everything from groceries to weaponry to prostitution to who knows. Once you deliver weapons or money or something to someone, you give up control over it.

As for artillery or nuclear weaponry, obviously those are not likely to be transferred after delivery, but the aid packages the west is sending are things like shoulder mounted missiles, drones, guns, mines, etc.

The MUCH larger issue is not the effect of money, ammo, or weaponry sent abroad does today, but what it does over the following decades. Remember, a few hundred thousand dollars of Stinger missiles given to the mujahadeen in the 1970s resulted in a War on Terror against these "former allies" 30 years later, costing over a trillion dollars, tens of thousands of lives, regular suicides by American servicemen feeling mental anguish about the killings they performed abroad, gave us the TSA and Homeland Security, and destroyed many of our 1st and 4th amendment rights, which you can't really put a price tag on, and to a large degree entirely erased what was essentially good about this country in the first place.

You can say it is an intentional plan by the elites to just have random violence everywhere, and that may be true, but it is unlikely we will know their intentions. Let's say we are indeed dealing with completely insane and amoral elite leaders, who do not behave rationally. What are we supposed to do if that is true?
 

Ember

Hummingbird
Other Christian
Gold Member
^^^^ LOL. Radio Free Europe is a CIA propaganda operation. :laughter:


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OrthoSerb

Robin
Orthodox
^^^^ LOL. Radio Free Europe is a CIA propaganda operation. :laughter:


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Radio Free Europe acted as a fifth column in the dismemberment of Yugoslavia by the West. That of course doesn't mean that no crimes have been committed by the 200,000 plus Russian soldiers in the last 4 months, but I don't think we should let RFE lead the investigation and set the agenda. If they are the go-to source for evidence then that should raise some red flags (to say the least). They really have no place being used as a reference for anything other than how such front organisations are used to condition the populace.
 



 
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