Lounge of Russian-Ukrainian War

Ember

Hummingbird
Other Christian
Gold Member
Don't count on that. Apparently (by some accounts I read) was a Kinzhal who destroyed that Patriot. Well, a Kinzhal missile costs the double of the Patriot System.

Makes no sense for me to target a Patriot with something that costs the double.

Cost is not the issue. Supply is Ukraine's biggest problem. There is a huge shortage of air defense systems in the West, particularly Patriots. There was a shortage even before the conflict began, and now Ukraine is burning through their missiles, and Russia is destroying what few they batteries they have.

Money has never been a problem for the West. It is the lack of stocks and military industrial capacity that is limiting what can be sent to Ukraine. Once these Patriots and other AA units are destroyed, it is next to impossible to replace them before the war is over.

Patriots have a poor track recordand the US MIC will not be happy as they are once again exposed in this way




The cost of a few Kinzhals is trifling anyway if the depleted air defense means that Russia can then use its air force near Kiev with acceptable risks.
 
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eradicator

Crow
Agnostic
Gold Member
By the way, I recently learned that 2 murderous terrorists from the Weather Underground, who back in the day bombed and killed a father of three kids, and only served 3 or 4 years in jail for their horrendous crime, are currently and openly operating a restaurant in NYC, where half of New York MSM journalists go to have lunch Monday to Friday... Since when are convicted terrorists opening restaurants in developed cities and playing the good neighbours?

Which nyc restaurant?
 

dicknixon72

Pelican
Cost is not the issue. Supply is Ukraine's biggest problem. There is a huge shortage of air defense systems in the West, particularly Patriots. There was a shortage even before the conflict began, and now Ukraine is burning through their missiles, and Russia is destroying what few they batteries they have.

Money has never been a problem for the West. It is the lack of stocks and military industrial capacity that is limiting what can be sent to Ukraine. Once these Patriots and other AA units are destroyed, it is next to impossible to replace them before the war is over.

Patriots have a poor track recordand the US MIC will not be happy as they are once again exposed in this way




The cost of a few Kinzhals is trifling anyway if the depleted air defense means that Russia can then use its air force near Kiev with acceptable risks.


Even keeps referencing Patriot performance in a 30 year-past conflict without two key points

1) Those were first-generation systems

2) Patriot originally designed as an anti-aircraft system, not a missile interceptor. Many of the SCUD missiles broke up in their terminal phase while early Patriot missiles went after the aft sections of the re-entry body.

Also, PAC-2 interceptors are fragmentation warheads while PAC-3s are kinetic kill.

Do I believe PAC-3 missiles took out all six Kinzhals by itself? No. Do I believe a Kinzhal obliterated a Patriot battery in totality? No. The truth is somewhere in between.
 

Ember

Hummingbird
Other Christian
Gold Member
Even keeps referencing Patriot performance in a 30 year-past conflict without two key points 1) Those were first-generation systems

The 2018 article references the very recent experiences of the Saudis. Definitely not using first-generation.

2) Patriot originally designed as an anti-aircraft system, not a missile interceptor.

Irrelevant. They are now designed and purposed to be used as ballistic missile interceptors.



Even the Ukrainian air force denied that a Kinzhal had been shot down on May 4th. Newsweek covered it in the West, but later edited the article to remove the section, probably under much political pressure.

1684351501842.png


Pro-Ukraine publications also published it.




This means that, to no great surprise, the Ukrainians are lying about downing Kinzhal missiles.

Ukraine says six shot down yesterday. Shoigu replies that "Ukrainian intercepts is three times more than we are launching"

Ukraine is trying to cover for their immense wastage by lying.


1684351963737.png
 

bucky

Hummingbird
Other Christian
The 2018 article references the very recent experiences of the Saudis. Definitely not using first-generation.



Irrelevant. They are now designed and purposed to be used as ballistic missile interceptors.



Even the Ukrainian air force denied that a Kinzhal had been shot down on May 4th. Newsweek covered it in the West, but later edited the article to remove the section, probably under much political pressure.

View attachment 58092


Pro-Ukraine publications also published it.




This means that, to no great surprise, the Ukrainians are lying about downing Kinzhal missiles.

Ukraine says six shot down yesterday. Shoigu replies that "Ukrainian intercepts is three times more than we are launching"

Ukraine is trying to cover for their immense wastage by lying.


View attachment 58093
I think yesterday the claim in the western MSM was that Russia launched 18 missiles at Kiev and the Ukrainians intercepted all of them with Patriots. Then this morning, the first MSM headline I see claims 30 Russian missiles launched launched, 29 downed by Ukraine. I haven't read the article yet, but I assume the claim would be that these 29 missiles were also downed mainly by Patriots.

Yesterday the MSM claim was that many of the intercepted Russian missiles are of the hypersonic variety that until yesterday was assumed to be unstoppable, and all the MSM coverage I've seen is calling this is a major victory for Ukraine and NATO, as well as a sign that Russia is definitely, for real, on the ropes this time. I was thinking though, even if the claims of 18 of 18 yesterday and 29 of 30 today for Ukraine are true, is it possible the Russians are just trying to bleed the enemy by forcing Ukraine to use large numbers of very expensive Patriots and the US and NATO to supply them? Google tells me that each individual Patriot costs 2 to 3 million USD. I'm not an expert on missiles at all and I have no idea what the missiles the Russians are firing cost, but I'd guess it's several times less than millions of USD, and that the Russians can keep this up longer than Ukraine and NATO can.

Thoughts?
 

paternos

Pelican
Catholic
I think yesterday the claim in the western MSM was that Russia launched 18 missiles at Kiev and the Ukrainians intercepted all of them with Patriots. Then this morning, the first MSM headline I see claims 30 Russian missiles launched launched, 29 downed by Ukraine. I haven't read the article yet, but I assume the claim would be that these 29 missiles were also downed mainly by Patriots.

Yesterday the MSM claim was that many of the intercepted Russian missiles are of the hypersonic variety that until yesterday was assumed to be unstoppable, and all the MSM coverage I've seen is calling this is a major victory for Ukraine and NATO, as well as a sign that Russia is definitely, for real, on the ropes this time. I was thinking though, even if the claims of 18 of 18 yesterday and 29 of 30 today for Ukraine are true, is it possible the Russians are just trying to bleed the enemy by forcing Ukraine to use large numbers of very expensive Patriots and the US and NATO to supply them? Google tells me that each individual Patriot costs 2 to 3 million USD. I'm not an expert on missiles at all and I have no idea what the missiles the Russians are firing cost, but I'd guess it's several times less than millions of USD, and that the Russians can keep this up longer than Ukraine and NATO can.

Thoughts?
Lies.

Before the Israelis bomb Gaza they always shoot fireworks in the air. They afterwards claim their "iron dome" defence system was able to shoot 50 Hamas rockets out of the air with hyper-advanced rockets costing millions per piece paid by German tax payers. These Hamas rockets magically never hit target. They are not visible in the air, and there are no remnants. They are according to the Israelis completely obliterated by the Israeli "rockets."

As "retaliation" the Jews shoot rockets at Gaza which destroy buildings and kill people. (Just go on YouTube)


Now the Jews ruling Ukraine pull the same trick as the Israelis have pulled for many years.

Somehow never people see the missiles in the air that are being shot. Just the fireworks going in the air.


In the case of Ukraine they also shot candles in the air that came down and started a fire.

With 95% certainty, I would wager that there were no Russian rockets. Ukraine has launched fireworks, like Israel has been doing for years, to fabricate a Russian attack. Consequently, Zelensky will embark on a new European tour to get additional funding and weapons.

Summary: War propaganda, deception of the population, lies, fake attack.
 
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Ember

Hummingbird
Other Christian
Gold Member
I think yesterday the claim in the western MSM was that Russia launched 18 missiles at Kiev and the Ukrainians intercepted all of them with Patriots. Then this morning, the first MSM headline I see claims 30 Russian missiles launched launched, 29 downed by Ukraine. I haven't read the article yet, but I assume the claim would be that these 29 missiles were also downed mainly by Patriots.

Yesterday the MSM claim was that many of the intercepted Russian missiles are of the hypersonic variety that until yesterday was assumed to be unstoppable, and all the MSM coverage I've seen is calling this is a major victory for Ukraine and NATO, as well as a sign that Russia is definitely, for real, on the ropes this time. I was thinking though, even if the claims of 18 of 18 yesterday and 29 of 30 today for Ukraine are true, is it possible the Russians are just trying to bleed the enemy by forcing Ukraine to use large numbers of very expensive Patriots and the US and NATO to supply them? Google tells me that each individual Patriot costs 2 to 3 million USD. I'm not an expert on missiles at all and I have no idea what the missiles the Russians are firing cost, but I'd guess it's several times less than millions of USD, and that the Russians can keep this up longer than Ukraine and NATO can.

Thoughts?
There has been an attempt to build the narrative that Kinzhals, Russia's wonder weapon, can be shot down by Patriots. Zelensky would really like to sell this idea and have the West send more of their limited stocks to Ukraine. They tried to create the myth on May 4th by falsely claiming a Kinzhal was shot down. The trouble is that their own air force denied it. That is, until they were told to shut up and stick to the narrative.

The Russian MOD has stated that on the 16th, a Patriot battery was struck by Kinzhal missiles, resulting in one destroyed radar unit and five destroyed launchers. Of course, this is unconfirmed, and it would depend on how closely positioned the units were. It is highly likely that only two Kinzhals were used but perhaps in combination with other missiles and decoys.

1684424408602.png

As we can see, they are often pictured quite close together.

n00237590-b.jpg


th.jpg


Patriot-High-Surface-to-Air-Missile-Battery-being-tested-in-Romania-in-2009.jpg


The thirty missiles launched on the 16th means that there were at least four launchers present, but maybe more with the battery. Ukraine only has two batteries. One from the US and the other donated jointly by Germany and the Netherlands. So now it is possible that only one battery remains functioning if the other had the radar destroyed.

The Kinzhal is designed to defeat modern air defenses such as the Patriot system, using up to a mach 10 final velocity and rapid random alterations to the final near vertical trajectory. A Russian military expert has said that the Patriot radar is unable to assign targeting designation to oncoming missiles travelling above mach 3. The Kinzhal reaches mach 4 very soon after being launched from an aircraft.

1684425935974.png


Colonel Douglas McGregor states here that he does not believe hypersonic missiles, including ICBM's, can be shot down by any air defense system.



The Ukrainian authorities have arrested six people they say were involved in posting the footage online of the Patriot launching thirty missiles. They face eight years in prison. This shows how mad they are over the destruction of the Patriot vs Kinzhal narrative.

1684427077196.png
 
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Thomas More

Crow
Protestant
This article from the Asia Times says Ukraine is ready to pull out of Bakhmut in the next few days, and is mainly trying to figure out how to do so without having the forces destroyed during the withdrawal.

It also mentions the extreme difficulties Ukraine is having with manpower. Finally it mentions that two top Ukrainian generals, General Valery Zaluzhny and General Aleksandr Syrskyi, are missing.

The article claims that the Asia Times is certain this information is true. They are a major publication, but outside the typical Western MSM. It's interesting to see this perspective being presented.

 
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Ember

Hummingbird
Other Christian
Gold Member
Finally it mentions that two top Ukrainian generals, General Valery Zaluzhny and General Aleksandr Syrskyi, are missing.
The Duran have been discussing this. They believe that the generals are hiding because they neither want to start the doomed 'counteroffensive' or pick up the phone to the US to explain why nothing is happening. They don't have the required ammo and equipment, as Russia has been methodically blowing up the storage dumps all across Ukraine.

Furthermore, they know that shortly after the offensive is launched, it will get tangled up in Russia's defense fortifications and blown to bits. Once this happens, the party is over, no more money, no more job, and the possibility of being killed by their own hardliners. This is why Zelensky has been on extended holiday in the EU. It is all doom and gloom at home.

I have never seen Alex so angry as here, where he rails against the British for sending the depleted uranium tank shells that have now allegedly contaminated Western Ukraine.

 
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Going strong

Hummingbird
Orthodox
Gold Member
So, if Russia had taken Kiev in 48 hours, as many initially expected would happen, then NATO weapons stocks would not have been depleted.

Has Putin drawn this thing out, in order to denazify and demilitarise not just Ukraine, but the whole of NATO?

And if his goal was to demilitarise NATO by blowing their stocks up in Ukraine, then what's Putin's next move, after Ukraine?

For months I've wondered why Putin refused to nuke a train carrying NATO weapons from polish border to Lvov... But maybe Putin wanted NATO to fill Ukraine with weapons. So that NATO itself is now without weapons, while Ukraine don't get anything done with the weapons.

Maybe, Putin is not aiming for Kiev, but for Berlin, as I wrote early on in this thread?

I mean, if NATO has given all its weapons to Ukraine, and NATO has no ground soldiers (because western men are mostly soy), then Russia can bypass Kiev and go to Berlin. No-one will dare start a nuclear war, so, it'd be conventional, and if really NATO has spent its stocks and is now empty-handed...

Can you imagine the shock, if Russia, having destroyed all the stocks of NATO weapons, just roll into Hungary with Orban's blessing, and enters Germany a few hours later, that'd be denazification like in the good old days... Who cares about Ukraine, after all the head of the Globalist Hydra is more to the West.
 
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Rocha

Ostrich
Gold Member
So, if Russia had taken Kiev in 48 hours, as many initially expected would happen, then NATO weapons stocks would not have been depleted.

Has Putin drawn this thing out, in order to denazify and demilitarise not just Ukraine, but the whole of NATO?

And if his goal was to demilitarise NATO by blowing their stocks up in Ukraine, then what's Putin's next move, after Ukraine?

For months I've wondered why Putin refused to nuke a train carrying NATO weapons from polish border to Lvov... But maybe Putin wanted NATO to fill Ukraine with weapons. So that NATO itself is now without weapons, while Ukraine don't get anything done with the weapons.

Maybe, Putin is not aiming for Kiev, but for Berlin, as I wrote early on in this thread?

I mean, if NATO has given all its weapons to Ukraine, and NATO has no ground soldiers (because western men are mostly soy), then Russia can bypass Kiev and go to Berlin. No-one will dare start a nuclear war, so, it'd be conventional, and if really NATO has spent its stocks and is now empty-handed...

Can you imagine the shock, if Russia, having destroyed all the stocks of NATO weapons, just roll into Hungary with Orban's blessing, and enters Germany a few hours later, that'd be denazification like in the good old days... Who cares about Ukraine, after all the head of the Globalist Hydra is more to the West.
For me they could bypass Berlin and go straight to Brussels.
 

Going strong

Hummingbird
Orthodox
Gold Member
For me they could bypass Berlin and go straight to Brussels.

If the Russians take Berlin, you can be sure that all EU employees and woke politicians from the whole of Western Europe, will flee a few minutes later to NYC, Tel Aviv or San Francisco. Mostly San Francisco from the look of them. They've got private planes, they'd flee very quickly as soon as the first Russian tank enters, unopposed, Berlin.

Seriously, if NATO's stocks in Ukraine are really all burnt to the ground, Putin should say 'Poka and See you later' to the bothersome, brutish and tough Ukrainians, and quietly roll into soy Western Europe.

Ukrainians would laugh a lot and applaud, because Ukrainians secretly despise and hate the soy Westerners. Maybe Ukrainians would even roll themselves into Western Europe, just behind the Russian tanks, like hungry vultures, to loot and pillage Western cities.

This last year has proven that nobody, neither Russians nor NATO, will use nukes whatever the stakes. That is, if nuclear weapons exist.

So, we're back to conventional war. And if Ukraine has had its arms stocks destroyed, there's no reason to keep painstakingly fighting the obtuse, unmoving and poor Ukrainians, Putin might as well turn his attention to soy, soft and rich targets, the Western States.

If I were him, the day the last Patriot and arm storage facility is destroyed in Ukraine, I'd give the 'Nach Berlin' march order. Would be a lot easier and more profitable than Bakhmut.

Bakhmut was good to keep the thing on slow burner while NATO stocks were methodically bombed elsewhere, but if it's done already, what's the point and interest of Ukraine, when all the orders are given in the West. A West left with no Patriot and no shells and no manly soldier.

In the time it took for Russians to take one mile of territory in Bakhmut, they could roll through all of Western Europe while the local Yellow Vests would throw flowers at them.

In which Western country exactly would the oppressed natives not welcome the Russians? Everyone in Western Europe hates the woke governments and inflation and islamist migrations, so everyone, Commies or Nationalists, would throw flowers at the Russians.

And the few Westerners who would not throw flowers at Russian soldiers, would certainly not fight them. To begin with, Westerners have no weapons, plus they are in general fearful and weak, and would in any case not risk their lives, whatever the situation.
 
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mountainaire

Kingfisher
Orthodox Inquirer
I think yesterday the claim in the western MSM was that Russia launched 18 missiles at Kiev and the Ukrainians intercepted all of them with Patriots. Then this morning, the first MSM headline I see claims 30 Russian missiles launched launched, 29 downed by Ukraine. I haven't read the article yet, but I assume the claim would be that these 29 missiles were also downed mainly by Patriots.

Yesterday the MSM claim was that many of the intercepted Russian missiles are of the hypersonic variety that until yesterday was assumed to be unstoppable, and all the MSM coverage I've seen is calling this is a major victory for Ukraine and NATO, as well as a sign that Russia is definitely, for real, on the ropes this time. I was thinking though, even if the claims of 18 of 18 yesterday and 29 of 30 today for Ukraine are true, is it possible the Russians are just trying to bleed the enemy by forcing Ukraine to use large numbers of very expensive Patriots and the US and NATO to supply them? Google tells me that each individual Patriot costs 2 to 3 million USD. I'm not an expert on missiles at all and I have no idea what the missiles the Russians are firing cost, but I'd guess it's several times less than millions of USD, and that the Russians can keep this up longer than Ukraine and NATO can.

Thoughts?
Lie to keep the grift going. That's essentially all our media is now...
 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
So, if Russia had taken Kiev in 48 hours, as many initially expected would happen, then NATO weapons stocks would not have been depleted.

Has Putin drawn this thing out, in order to denazify and demilitarise not just Ukraine, but the whole of NATO?

And if his goal was to demilitarise NATO by blowing their stocks up in Ukraine, then what's Putin's next move, after Ukraine?

I honestly believe all Russia wants is the Eastern portion of Ukraine where the ethnic Russians reside, and maybe a little more for a larger buffer to protect themselves from NATO missiles.

Putin doesn't need to send his army to crush NATO or the west in general. The west is doing a fine job of doing that themselves, and Putin has talked about this many times. Why waste resources and good men to fight an enemy that is defeating itself.

Russia and China can work together economically, put pressure on the west by supporting Iran and Syria against Israel, as they are now doing, and just sit back and wait. They don't need the land, they need the threat of the US military to cease to exist, and that seems within reach on its own undoing.

I think the biggest threat to Putin and Xi Jinping are insider coup attempts and keeping control of their nations by doing what keeps the people happy. A giant world war puts all that at risk and isn't needed.
 
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