Magic, Occultism, and Other Related Paraphernalia

[SirSeabass]

I am reading through "The Truth of Our Faith" by Elder Cleopa of Romania and near the end of the book the Elder is asked about magic and occultism. I have collected some items from my time in the military and practiced divination with tarot cards. A copy of the Bhagavad Gita, a Nepali singing bowl, and tarot cards are the items in question. I have thrown out the tarot cards but was genuinely unsure about the Bhagavad Gita and the bowl. I collected the bowl as a curiosity and bought the Bhagavad Gita for reference while studying Indo-European religion and history. I threw out the cards because they are obvious tools for divination and were used as such, but the other items have never been used in this way or were purchased with that intent.

What is the Orthodox stance on such items in the home, even typically more common things like a dream catcher, crystals and gemstones, pagan(read other religions) books, etc. I know these things are pretty common for secular people to have in their houses. Note the difference between someone with a dream catcher with the intent to prevent bad dreams versus someone who owns a dream catcher because it looks cool. Does intention matter in these cases?

If you are an inquirer or catechumen I strongly recommend the book I linked above as the Elder goes over many topics that an inquirer would typically ask. It has helped me immensely and can often provide an answer immediately if my priest is not available. There is also a volume II in print that I recommend.

 

[Prores]

Trash these things, the intention doesn't matter one bit! These things have a symbolic power, like the spray paint markings on the roads and sidewalks that the utility workers use. You don't know what they mean but the utility workers do. Your knowledge or intent is not a prerequisite for their efficacy.

 

[DanielH]

Trash these things, the intention doesn't matter one bit! These things have a symbolic power, like the spray paint markings on the roads and sidewalks that the utility workers use. You don't know what they mean but the utility workers do. Your knowledge or intent is not a prerequisite for their efficacy.

This. Also, when a priest blesses a home, he should be inspecting for things like this I've even heard of a priest removing these items himself and destroying them.

 

[Roosh]

I would get rid of anything that is opposed to Christ or reminds you of when you walked in darkness.

 

[Hermetic Seal]

The thing about crystals/minerals is funny to me. When I was a kid I was really into rock collecting, I had a rock collection and lots of books on classifying/identifying them, other aspects of the hobby. I never heard of any of this new age crystal mumbo jumbo until decades later. Unless if your rocks have some intrinsically pagan aspect like some sort of shape, engraving, etc., I think it’s fine to use them as decoration.

Yes, I know collecting things is sort of intrinsically stupid, but at least rocks and minerals have some aesthetic value reflective of the beauty of God’s creation, which is more than can be said of Funko Pops.

Something like a Dream Catcher seems intrinsically pagan though, so I’d dump that.

 

[SirSeabass]

Thank you all for the posts, you will be happy to know that I discarded all of it this morning.

 

[Lawrence87]

I had a transitional period of time where I was inquiring into Orthodoxy but was still clinging into Buddhism. In my place I had Buddha statues and many books on Buddhism and other similar subjects. I remember one morning I decided to pray as I wasn't sure whether I could commit myself to Christ. A subtle thought came to me imploring me to get rid of all this stuff. I am not saying this was God or whatever, but rather a moment of clarity granted by my prayer. As soon as I threw all these items in the trash, it was the defining moment in my commitment to Christ. I do believe these things had an influence on me spiritually, but also getting rid of such items is simply a testament of commitment to Christ. I am glad to hear you did likewise

 

[Tom Slick]

Just as an Orthodox Christian priest can bless and sanctify something, like an icon, prayer rope, etc., a pagan demon worshipper can bless-curse an object, so if you own something that it is questionable it should at the least be destroyed, but preferably blessed by a priest and then destroyed so there is no way it can do any harm.

Subsequently, you must be careful about what objects come into your home, especially from strangers. Don't bring things that may have some aesthetic value, like a Buddhist statue, that may have been used and/or cursed by pagans. It is not unheard of for even low-level tarot card reader types or sorcerer assistants to place cursed objects into someone's home as part of a spell. The story of St. Cyprian of Antioch and St. Justina includes a scenario where a demon requires a human to sprinkle powder just outside St. Justina's house in order for his curse to work on her.

"Take this powder" (here he [the demon] gave him [St. Cyprian] a vessel full of something) "and give it to this youth; let him sprinkle the house of Justina with it, and you will see that what I have said will come to pass."

 

[Yeagerist]

> tarot cards
> sacred text of the Hindu religion
> Nepali Buddhist divination tool

Brother, please stop. Throw all of these away and rebuke their demonic influences in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Edit: I don't mean to condemn you, because I have realized that your situation is symbolic of the struggle that all of us Christians face, in needing to cast out the stuff that keep holding us into this world.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I wonder if this is also applicable for the quran for example. I use it to do research and for apologetic reasons. And where do we draw the line? Father Kosmas says that Roman Catholic books on theology for example should be avoided because it can cause confusion. I also heard a story of a monk actually, where he got a vision of a saint or the Mother of God I think, and they wouldnt enter his cell because of something in his room was preventing them. It ended up being a book from Nestorius.

 

[Prores]

> tarot cards
> sacred text of the Hindu religion
> Nepali Buddhist divination tool

Brother, please stop. Throw all of these away and rebuke their demonic influences in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Edit: I don't mean to condemn you, because I have realized that your situation is symbolic of the struggle that all of us Christians face, in needing to cast out the stuff that keep holding us into this world.

See posts above, he threw the items away

 

[Akaky Akakievitch]

I wonder if this is also applicable for the quran for example. I use it to do research and for apologetic reasons. And where do we draw the line? Father Kosmas says that Roman Catholic books on theology for example should be avoided because it can cause confusion. I also heard a story of a monk actually, where he got a vision of a saint or the Mother of God I think, and they wouldnt enter his cell because of something in his room was preventing them. It ended up being a book from Nestorius.

Glad you brought this up, I'm currently holding onto a copy of the Quran and an RSV Catholic Bible along with a Catholic Bible study programme, from before I was Orthodox. I have been wanting to get rid of them, but thought that by giving them to a charity shop I would be potentially passing on these dangerous works to others, making me complicit in the act. Is burning them a solution or simply putting them into landfill? I did this with other New Agey books and collections, but stopped short with these for some reason. They're out of sight now but still at home, so I'm wondering if they may have a pernicious influence of their own, especially the Quran.

As you say there with that account of the monk with a heretical text, I wonder if there are any books in my collection holding me back or providing darker influences. It's something I should probably explore with my priest, but any thoughts here are welcome.

 

[Eusebius Erasmus]

Glad you brought this up, I'm currently holding onto a copy of the Quran and an RSV Catholic Bible along with a Catholic Bible study programme, from before I was Orthodox. I have been wanting to get rid of them, but thought that by giving them to a charity shop I would be potentially passing on these dangerous works to others, making me complicit in the act. Is burning them a solution or simply putting them into landfill? I did this with other New Agey books and collections, but stopped short with these for some reason. They're out of sight now but still at home, so I'm wondering if they may have a pernicious influence of their own, especially the Quran.

As you say there with that account of the monk with a heretical text, I wonder if there are any books in my collection holding me back or providing darker influences. It's something I should probably explore with my priest, but any thoughts here are welcome.

I'm following this thread to find out the answer. I'd also like to know.

 

[Lawrence87]

Glad you brought this up, I'm currently holding onto a copy of the Quran and an RSV Catholic Bible along with a Catholic Bible study programme, from before I was Orthodox. I have been wanting to get rid of them, but thought that by giving them to a charity shop I would be potentially passing on these dangerous works to others, making me complicit in the act. Is burning them a solution or simply putting them into landfill? I did this with other New Agey books and collections, but stopped short with these for some reason. They're out of sight now but still at home, so I'm wondering if they may have a pernicious influence of their own, especially the Quran.

As you say there with that account of the monk with a heretical text, I wonder if there are any books in my collection holding me back or providing darker influences. It's something I should probably explore with my priest, but any thoughts here are welcome.

I feel like it can be easy to become too superstitious about these matters. If we look at some of the famous Saints of the church who refuted paganism, Islam, or any heresies they quote extensively from their sources. They clearly weren't afraid to merely have them around. Even up to modern times Fr Seraphim Rose quotes extensively from non-Christian sources

I don't know for sure, but my sense is, having a Quran as something purchased for the purposes of refutation and apologetics is not the same as keeping hold of a Quran because you used to be Muslim and you can't bring youeself to get rid of it. In the former you are putting the might of Christ over the power of the text, whereas in the latter you are clinging onto the text because of it's power over you.

 

[Yeagerist]

I feel like it can be easy to become too superstitious about these matters. If we look at some of the famous Saints of the church who refuted paganism, Islam, or any heresies they quote extensively from their sources. They clearly weren't afraid to merely have them around. Even up to modern times Fr Seraphim Rose quotes extensively from non-Christian sources

I don't know for sure, but my sense is, having a Quran as something purchased for the purposes of refutation and apologetics is not the same as keeping hold of a Quran because you used to be Muslim and you can't bring youeself to get rid of it. In the former you are putting the might of Christ over the power of the text, whereas in the latter you are clinging onto the text because of it's power over you.

In OP's case he has used divination items and a pagan text that he (presumably) meditated upon for some time.

 

[Lawrence87]

In OP's case he has used divination items and a pagan text that he (presumably) meditated upon for some time.

Yes I agree the OP should have gotten rid of these items. However the question came up over whether its okay or not to have certain texts with the notion of refuting them

 

[Akaky Akakievitch]

I feel like it can be easy to become too superstitious about these matters. If we look at some of the famous Saints of the church who refuted paganism, Islam, or any heresies they quote extensively from their sources. They clearly weren't afraid to merely have them around. Even up to modern times Fr Seraphim Rose quotes extensively from non-Christian sources

I don't know for sure, but my sense is, having a Quran as something purchased for the purposes of refutation and apologetics is not the same as keeping hold of a Quran because you used to be Muslim and you can't bring youeself to get rid of it. In the former you are putting the might of Christ over the power of the text, whereas in the latter you are clinging onto the text because of it's power over you.

I agree, its easy to over think these things. I've never been a Muslim but might be interested in studying it in future, once I'm more grounded in the Orthodox faith, for apologetics/refutation purposes as you mention. I'm from Birmingham which is heavily Muslim so it would be beneficial to learn more about it soon. I know the Orthodox Shahada YT channel is useful in this area. l will likely hold on to my copy of the Quran.

With regards to the Catholic bible and bible study, I'm not so sure. I might just keep the RC Bible on my bookshelf, and then throw away the Catholic bible study booklet. In terms of the latter, I could be promoting a heresy if I pass that on, whereas at least the Catholic Bible provides an additional translation, RSV 2nd ed, if needed. I've heard that this is more woke than the original RSV but at least now I have KJV, NKJV and RSV translations at home, besides the online resources which are sufficient also.

I also had some spare rosary beads with a crucifix from when I inquired into Catholicism a couple years ago. This has also lingered around. I've since bought an Orthodox crucifix and just kept the Rosary beads in a draw. I might throw these out too, but felt torn about the Crucifix which I detached from the beads, because it could easily be Orthodox as it's quite simple in design, I might take a picture when I get chance and share it to see what others think. I suppose some Catholic items could be used in an Orthodox context but obviously not preferred and should be avoided if possible. I've been more cautious about this, as I don't want to risk seeming too ecumenical, but something about throwing away a crucifix feels wrong.

 

[Roosh]

If I accidentally ended up with a copy of the Koran, I'd dispose of in a way so no one would encounter it.

I wonder if the Catholic Bible can be kept as a reference.

 

[Lawrence87]

I agree, its easy to over think these things. I've never been a Muslim but might be interested in studying it in future, once I'm more grounded in the Orthodox faith, for apologetics/refutation purposes as you mention. I'm from Birmingham which is heavily Muslim so it would be beneficial to learn more about it soon. I know the Orthodox Shahada YT channel is useful in this area. l will likely hold on to my copy of the Quran.

With regards to the Catholic bible and bible study, I'm not so sure. I might just keep the RC Bible on my bookshelf, and then throw away the Catholic bible study booklet. In terms of the latter, I could be promoting a heresy if I pass that on, whereas at least the Catholic Bible provides an additional translation, RSV 2nd ed, if needed. I've heard that this is more woke than the original RSV but at least now I have KJV, NKJV and RSV translations at home, besides the online resources which are sufficient also.

I also had some spare rosary beads with a crucifix from when I inquired into Catholicism a couple years ago. This has also lingered around. I've since bought an Orthodox crucifix and just kept the Rosary beads in a draw. I might throw these out too, but felt torn about the Crucifix which I detached from the beads, because it could easily be Orthodox as it's quite simple in design, I might take a picture when I get chance and share it to see what others think. I suppose some Catholic items could be used in an Orthodox context but obviously not preferred and should be avoided if possible. I've been more cautious about this, as I don't want to risk seeming too ecumenical, but something about throwing away a crucifix feels wrong.

It should also be said as is becoming a bit of a cliché; one should talk to one's priest about it.

If you feel a calling to refute Islam, then get a blessing to do so, and to have a copy of the Quran for that purpose. It can also be plausible that the demons will implant the thought of someday maybe needing to refute it as an excuse for keeping it. If you are going by a chance that maybe you will need to refute a claim at some possible point in the future then you should probably get rid of it because you can look up the Quran online for those random one off occasions. If you're not specifically engaged in counter Islam apologetics then probably you don't need it.

As with the Catholic reference Bible. It's not quite so bad, it's plausible that you might have a godchild that is coming from Catholicism and you might need to help them with some things. Or just a friend who is in that position. I was gifted a NKJV with a Protestant commentary by my parents. I don't really use it, but I haven't gotten rid of it out of respect for them. If I was tempted and conflicted by the things it said and it was causing me issues then maybe I would consider giving it away, but at the moment its just on my shelf. But again, any doubts should be cleared up with one's spiritual father.

 

[Yeagerist]

I think the elephant in the room here is the subtle fear of being strayed away from Orthodoxy or deconverting because of the influence of certain texts or objects. Say I want to keep a Quran for apologetics purposes, what's the likelihood that I would actually become Muslim instead of refuting it?

It would be helpful to take time to dwell and ask ourselves, "Why I won't abandon Orthodoxy for x religion," or "Why I won't go back to y church?" I still keep some booklets or pamphlets from the time I was an Evangelical teenager, but certainly after years of seeing the flaws of Protestantism I definitely had no fears of abandoning Orthodoxy for Protestantism. I have an interest in Orthodox apologetics in relation to Confucianism, Taoism and Shinto, but I would rather narrow my focus on answering objections to Christianity from scholars of those belief systems, rather than run the risk of syncretism.

OP had to throw away the two divination items and the Hindu text because he was in a position like a recovering alcoholic or drug addict: you can't overcome your drinking habits if you still keep a bottle or two in your fridge.