Makeup
- Thread starter Starlight
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Exactly. I thought this was a Christian forum, not an Orthodox forum. If it has changed, please let us know.
Referring to a previous comment about the body being a Temple of God, I agree, but from what I've seen in the recipe thread and other threads, many people on this forum eat very toxic food, like processed flours and sugar, and some are overweight. How is that treating your body as a temple? It seems like it only applies to makeup... hmm.
Again, to me this whole demonizing of makeup seems more judgemental than anything else. Something I've only seen in Western circles, by the way.
Referring to a previous comment about the body being a Temple of God, I agree, but from what I've seen in the recipe thread and other threads, many people on this forum eat very toxic food, like processed flours and sugar, and some are overweight. How is that treating your body as a temple? It seems like it only applies to makeup... hmm.
Again, to me this whole demonizing of makeup seems more judgemental than anything else. Something I've only seen in Western circles, by the way.
This is an Orthodox Christian forum, but technically, in name only. Currently, those who are not Orthodox are still allowed membership.
Obviously i can only speak for myself (and i admit that I'm too busy/lazy to go look for the threads you mentioned), but I do my best to avoid toxic ingredients in food, personal care products, household products, etc. I completely avoid makeup, and have since long before I became a Christian, for the reasons that others have posted throughout the thread. It is bad for you, and unlike food, unnecessary to survive.
Since becoming a Christian I have the additional reasons of not wanting to defile the temple of God, and not wanting to focus on vanity and superficiality and things of this world (though I do work out frequently, keep a BMI on the lower end of normal, and keep my hair very long. Perhaps that makes me a hypocrite, but I would argue that the things I do are natural and not toxic to my body. And I think my husband deserves for his wife to make an effort.)
I definitely do not hate beauty. I just find it ridiculous that "beauty" without exception be defined as plastering synthetic and toxic goop all over one's God given face.
There is also no reason for me to judge another Christian woman's wearing of makeup. Perhaps she doesn't know it's bad for her. Perhaps she lacks the introspection to see that she is being worldly or defiling God's temple and her church doesn't bring the topic up. Perhaps she actually doesn't like to wear it and her husband insists. While my husband says that he is fine with me not wearing makeup, it's more because of the health effects than anything.
I also wouldn't judge more permanent physical enhancements on a Christian, like plastic surgery, because its possible the woman got the surgery before conversion. We really can't know a stranger's whole life story and the whys of their past actions. Even if one repents the physical consequences of past sinful thought and actions remain.
I think it’s important to emphasize that there is a huge difference between saying someone is going to hell or is a bad person for wearing make-up (which would be a judgement) and informing fellow Christian sisters about the potential spiritual and bodily harms of make-up. These are not the same thing. We most certainly can and should encourage each other, from a place of love and compassion, to live more holy lives. I also think that it is very easy to rationalize our own vices and spiritual weaknesses: “It’s just one drink…” “It’s just a little lipgloss…” “It’s just one more cookie…” etc. And that is why we should help each other keep on the straight and narrow path because we don’t know what another person is suffering and can’t assume that someone is not struggling with a particular sin.
Make-up is intertwined with some level of vanity. There is no way to get around that.
Makeup is the topic. So we are sticking to that as an example of what not to do in regards to the Temple.
Other examples you cited are for different threads.
You can read what I said near the very beginning of the Thread.
I think also the Church Fathers do seem to dislike makeup. In the association with beauty with falseness. But in God. Truth,Goodness and Beauty are unified as one and non-contradictory.
For example Men's attraction to beauty is not without substance:
Symmetry Is Related to Sexual Dimorphism in Faces: Data Across Culture and Species
BackgroundMany animals both display and assess multiple signals. Two prominently studied traits are symmetry and sexual dimorphism, which, for many animals, are proposed cues to heritable fitness benefits. These traits are associated with other potential benefits, such as fertility. In humans...
journals.plos.org
Archive:
Symmetry Is Related to Sexual Dimorphism in Faces: Data Across Culture and Species
BackgroundMany animals both display and assess multiple signals. Two prominently studied traits are symmetry and sexual dimorphism, which, for many animals, are proposed cues to heritable fitness benefits. These traits are associated with other potential benefits, such as fertility. In humans...
web.archive.org
Seems to be associated with health and a generally healthy genetic makeup which is what the senses then perceive as physically attractive. In the same way Hypergamy is women's version of quality selection. Of course as has been proven by modernity both can be hacked and fooled to an extent.
And it seems that the long-term impact of good health is far better for beauty than the shortcuts provided by many of the myriad forms of makeup and cosmetic modification which nowadays is very toxic too. And of course I suspect good character also contributes. Even certain very old Christian ladies manage to be beautiful without being sexually attractive. But they glow.
There isn't only the beauty of Man and Woman at their best in their youth. As if a master craftsmen made them. There is the beauty of architecture of the stars, planets, clean water and green meadows flowing in the wind as the sun shines upon them.
What we perceive with our senses as God designed them is visual and auditory harmony. Which was what our first parents Adam and Eve perceived when they were in the Garden of Eden. It was Good, Beautiful and Real. When the first couple saw each other then its no doubt the same thing.
God is the author of them all. And in addition they are also True and Good.
Fixed it for you. Otherwise fully agree.
Myself, and the majority of my friends (possibly all) do not like makeup on a woman. Outside of maybe a special and rare event where you are already wearing special clothes like a fancy dress and excessive jewelry, I don't care to ever see it.
Interestingly, this was the case even when this was a forum promoting fornication with women--the men back then almost universally rejected women with excessive makeup (other than to note that such women were good targets for sexual escapades) so please do not think that makeup enhances a woman's appearance. The only time I would say it does so is covering up a blemished face, but you would do better to fix your diet or whatever the underlying health cause is, and I promise the true radiant face will attract men much more than fake makeup will.
I agree that diet and health are the first steps one should take to have a radiant glow, healthy hair and skin. But whether or not people are selectively applying advice, truth is truth. Fast food is bad for you, and makeup is bad for your skin and most men don't like it. I don't understand this comment--because some people eat bad food we should ignore the problems with makeup?
Can you elaborate on makeup and "western circles"? Are you referring to the western hemisphere? I suppose there are some Asian cultures like Japanese Geishas which rely heavily on makeup but in general I don't see women using makeup at all except in the west. I suppose if they are using it, it is very subtle and unnoticable, like lipstick only. In my experience it's quite the opposite--the west is very much in favor of makeup while the rest of the world is not. The makeup industry is dominated almost universally by European firms.
TheOnceAndFutureKing
Woodpecker
I don't mind makeup, as long as its not overboard. I never found overt clown makeup attractive on a woman, starts to look too much like a transvestite or drag queen who have to use extra makeup to compensate for their masculine shaped faces.
This is a very interesting thread. I'm excited to read the link with the history of makeup.
I haven't formed a general / moral / theological point of view on makeup at this time.
I know that personally, despite having a very large makeup collection and enjoying the process of it (it's like painting), I haven't been able to wear makeup for over a year now. I just don't have any good motives for it. I'd like to point out that people wear makeup for reasons other than vanity. In my case it was mainly about trying to manipulate people into treating me better. Which is not a pure thing to do.
I am going to be somewhat of a contrarian on the makeup is toxic point. It's not necessarily bad for your skin. Makeup formulations have improved a lot and many contain skincare ingredients like moisturisers, niacinamide etc. My skin was honestly better when I wore makeup because it was tied to a good skincare regimen.
This being said, your typical drugstore foundation contains stuff like octinoxate which is an endocrine disruptor and causes acne. I've heard the theory that the companies deliberately put this stuff into foundation to give women acne, so that they will keep purchasing the foundation, to cover the acne it gave them.
In terms of scripture I always found it off-putting to see Jezebel putting on her eye makeup while waiting for her executors to arrive. I just don't want to be like Jezebel in any way. I don't think this is really a rational argument, like.. if she boiled her eggs a certain way, I probably would find that off-putting too lol.. but it's how I feel on a visceral level.
I haven't formed a general / moral / theological point of view on makeup at this time.
I know that personally, despite having a very large makeup collection and enjoying the process of it (it's like painting), I haven't been able to wear makeup for over a year now. I just don't have any good motives for it. I'd like to point out that people wear makeup for reasons other than vanity. In my case it was mainly about trying to manipulate people into treating me better. Which is not a pure thing to do.
I am going to be somewhat of a contrarian on the makeup is toxic point. It's not necessarily bad for your skin. Makeup formulations have improved a lot and many contain skincare ingredients like moisturisers, niacinamide etc. My skin was honestly better when I wore makeup because it was tied to a good skincare regimen.
This being said, your typical drugstore foundation contains stuff like octinoxate which is an endocrine disruptor and causes acne. I've heard the theory that the companies deliberately put this stuff into foundation to give women acne, so that they will keep purchasing the foundation, to cover the acne it gave them.
In terms of scripture I always found it off-putting to see Jezebel putting on her eye makeup while waiting for her executors to arrive. I just don't want to be like Jezebel in any way. I don't think this is really a rational argument, like.. if she boiled her eggs a certain way, I probably would find that off-putting too lol.. but it's how I feel on a visceral level.
Indeed. Although I think its better to have skincare separate from makeup. But you should beware of skincare products too that may contain endocrine disruptors and other additives.
Of course what ultimately manifests on skin comes from the inside. Those Dr Berg videos I post here have many other videos that goes to show that many skin problems are actually indicators of health problems you don't know you have:
Skincare and makeup masks those problems and would prevent you from addressing them in many of those cases.
In the similar way how morality is a matter of having a clean inside manifesting in a clean outside. So it is with health. It does no good to have "whited sepulchers" in a physical sense as much as we do about the spiritual.
I couldn't find the original article I read but this one says most of the same things:
Is Sunscreen Causing More Harm than Good?
Is sunscreen bad for you? When you lather up with sunscreen, chemicals enter the bloodstream in substantial amounts after just one day of use.
thetruthaboutcancer.com
I don't use sunscreen but typically only expose my forearms, lower legs, face, and neck when outside. I don't burn easily but if I did, I'd utilize a hat or bonnet and only use *non-chemical sunscreen* as a last resort or if I was going to the beach for the day.
I spend as much time sunbathing as I can. Stopped wearing sunscreen when I was 10 or so.
My rationale was that paying money for a product to limit the absorption of natural sunlight into the body, and then ALSO paying money for supplemental Vitamin D, or drinking gallons and gallons of "fortified" milk, makes no sense.
If you spend ENOUGH time in the sun, and if you stop slathering weird chemicals all over your body all the time ("skincare products" and "beauty products" lmao more like POISON, put the "super extra beautiful classy woman lotion" DOWN and go find a single-ingredient alternative like olive oil, cocoa butter, shea butter, etc.), sunburn becomes a complete non-issue.
Acclimation is key.
I've known a lot of people who say they "can't" be in the sun for more than a few minutes without burning because of their "complexion" and "genetics." Wrong. The thing these people universally have in common is that they HIDE FROM THE SUN ALL THE TIME, and then make exceptions occasionally for extended periods for specific fun activities. They go from ZERO minutes at a stretch to 30+. And then think it is evidence that the sun is "bad" for them.
(I've known genetically similar people with the same complexion who prove them entirely wrong.)
Fair-complected people need to be more careful, yes, especially if they are not acclimated. But they also don't need as much sun exposure to synthesize sufficient Vitamin D for themselves.
There is no way the sun is so bad for them that they "need" a Vitamin D supplement because they can't get enough sun exposure without burning/getting skin cancer. They are simply "doing it wrong" because they have been trained that way.
It's kind of like how they tell you that you need to hide from all germs and diseases and live in the most sanitary/sterile way possible... and then, oh, but you have to take these vaccines to try to compensate for the fact that your body is utterly inexperienced at preventing or fighting off illness.
Anything that follows this model should rejected.
Sunscreen probably causes skin cancer.
My rationale was that paying money for a product to limit the absorption of natural sunlight into the body, and then ALSO paying money for supplemental Vitamin D, or drinking gallons and gallons of "fortified" milk, makes no sense.
If you spend ENOUGH time in the sun, and if you stop slathering weird chemicals all over your body all the time ("skincare products" and "beauty products" lmao more like POISON, put the "super extra beautiful classy woman lotion" DOWN and go find a single-ingredient alternative like olive oil, cocoa butter, shea butter, etc.), sunburn becomes a complete non-issue.
Acclimation is key.
I've known a lot of people who say they "can't" be in the sun for more than a few minutes without burning because of their "complexion" and "genetics." Wrong. The thing these people universally have in common is that they HIDE FROM THE SUN ALL THE TIME, and then make exceptions occasionally for extended periods for specific fun activities. They go from ZERO minutes at a stretch to 30+. And then think it is evidence that the sun is "bad" for them.
(I've known genetically similar people with the same complexion who prove them entirely wrong.)
Fair-complected people need to be more careful, yes, especially if they are not acclimated. But they also don't need as much sun exposure to synthesize sufficient Vitamin D for themselves.
There is no way the sun is so bad for them that they "need" a Vitamin D supplement because they can't get enough sun exposure without burning/getting skin cancer. They are simply "doing it wrong" because they have been trained that way.
It's kind of like how they tell you that you need to hide from all germs and diseases and live in the most sanitary/sterile way possible... and then, oh, but you have to take these vaccines to try to compensate for the fact that your body is utterly inexperienced at preventing or fighting off illness.
Anything that follows this model should rejected.
Sunscreen probably causes skin cancer.
Slow and steady wins. Maybe that's why we live longer
We're the tortoises??
I think that when we view the matter more in our hearts and not so much as a law of right or wrong it will make more sense.
The deeper we grow in our spiritual lives, in conjunction with the acquiring of grace, will help us to be less dependent on asking these types of questions in a lawful manner. It will be less of ‘is a little makeup okay?’ to ‘why do I wear makeup? do I really need this? is this good for my soul?’
The current trend in makeup with the fuzzy eyebrows/drag look is a mockery of women.
What worries me more are the fillers, lips, tattoos and prostitute red nails on young women. I saw a young girl working at the bakery today looking like this and just thought, “This poor soul has no idea what she’s doing”
Having said that- yes I do wear minimal makeup, but not everyday & not as much as I used to… so baby steps. I’d like to get to the point of no makeup.
I also find that I don’t want to wear makeup because we may lead the opposite sex into corruption and sin but also because we are setting an example for our fellow sisters in Christ. I don’t want to be the reason they fall into envy or competitiveness or inferiority. We are setting an example with our lives.
My kids always tell me they like me without makeup!
The deeper we grow in our spiritual lives, in conjunction with the acquiring of grace, will help us to be less dependent on asking these types of questions in a lawful manner. It will be less of ‘is a little makeup okay?’ to ‘why do I wear makeup? do I really need this? is this good for my soul?’
The current trend in makeup with the fuzzy eyebrows/drag look is a mockery of women.
What worries me more are the fillers, lips, tattoos and prostitute red nails on young women. I saw a young girl working at the bakery today looking like this and just thought, “This poor soul has no idea what she’s doing”
Having said that- yes I do wear minimal makeup, but not everyday & not as much as I used to… so baby steps. I’d like to get to the point of no makeup.
I also find that I don’t want to wear makeup because we may lead the opposite sex into corruption and sin but also because we are setting an example for our fellow sisters in Christ. I don’t want to be the reason they fall into envy or competitiveness or inferiority. We are setting an example with our lives.
My kids always tell me they like me without makeup!