Male friendships in a secular society

prisonplanet

Robin
Other Christian
Throughout my life secular friends were always better than "Christian" friends. In all churches I visited, save two, the men were effeminate, indecisive, pacifistic and not respectable. Whenever I spend too much time with those "men" it turned me away from God and lose the masculinity I finally build up. The only good things about them were their reliability and knowledge about their faith, but knowledge and church attendance does not equal virtue. The deepest bonds were with secular friends, specifically from Muslim countries, be it secular or devout Muslims, I got along with them better than with my "Christian brothers". This extends to Far-East Asians as well. With the people of my blood and faith, I share nothing in common with. If you are weak in virtue and brittle in character then the Satanic Globohomo spirit takes hold of you.

Only in the Syriac and Coptic Orthodox Church have I seen strong bonds and real men, needless to say I spent a good deal of time with Arameans.

At this point I keep secular friendships transactual; one hand washes the other. There is no reason to be attached or expect anything deeper. As Edmund Hulse said: There are no friends, only business partners. And in a more atomized world it rings truer than ever.
In my experience, male bonding occurs mostly in hard times. I've been to war, been homeless and been to jail. It was in these times - be it a battle buddy, cellmate, or another guy on the street, that bonds were forged. I just watched that movie The Perfect Storm and I thought that had a good example of this as well.
Have you heard of the 80-year-generational-cycle? I think there's a lot of truth to it, that every four generations society flips, based on hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times, good times create weak men - repeat. Historically, the west had its last hard times in the 30s and 40s (Great Depression, WW2), and its peak of good times probably from the 80s into the 2010s and is hitting its hard times again now.
If so, that obviously sucks in a lot of ways, but it would mean we could see people making deeper bonds than in those good times.
The trick is to try, even when the world around us is having hard times, to have our family and community to have some sort of good times, and to not let those good times get us complacent on the importance of making strong meaningful relationships.
 

papashango

Sparrow
Non-Christian
I'd imagine a good place to look is martial arts gyms? I was meant to join one recently but a shoulder/neck injury has delayed it.

Wouldn't say you're more likely to meet someone of faith, but there is that combat element which fosters respect.

It's taken me a while to realise that men bond when they're 'working' on something together - e.g playing in a band, building a shed, or it could be something as simple as helping carry boxes to a new house.

In my degenerate 20s, I spent a lot of time 'meeting up' with male friends for a beer, or even worse a coffee(!). I think this is fine for men if you haven't seen a friend in a long time, or if you're meeting to discuss a project, but I'm talking every weekend just for a 'catch up' - basically what women like doing. Something always felt off for me, it felt yucky, and I thought I must be an anti-social guy who didn't like 'nice/fun' activities. But I felt like the culture around me was all about finding ways to work less, instead of realising that working is actually integral to your sense of well-being as a man.

I don't think you're going to form good male friendships by just looking for someone who 'believes' in what you believe, and expecting a brotherhood to blossom. Go and find someone you can help, and take it from there.
 

AHaytch

Sparrow
Non-Christian
I'd imagine a good place to look is martial arts gyms? I was meant to join one recently but a shoulder/neck injury has delayed it.

Wouldn't say you're more likely to meet someone of faith, but there is that combat element which fosters respect.

It's taken me a while to realise that men bond when they're 'working' on something together - e.g playing in a band, building a shed, or it could be something as simple as helping carry boxes to a new house.

In my degenerate 20s, I spent a lot of time 'meeting up' with male friends for a beer, or even worse a coffee(!). I think this is fine for men if you haven't seen a friend in a long time, or if you're meeting to discuss a project, but I'm talking every weekend just for a 'catch up' - basically what women like doing. Something always felt off for me, it felt yucky, and I thought I must be an anti-social guy who didn't like 'nice/fun' activities. But I felt like the culture around me was all about finding ways to work less, instead of realising that working is actually integral to your sense of well-being as a man.

I don't think you're going to form good male friendships by just looking for someone who 'believes' in what you believe, and expecting a brotherhood to blossom. Go and find someone you can help, and take it from there.
Forgive me, but only a man of no faith will highlight "doing things together" as being enough. Which that Guardian article I highlighted in my opening post lamely posits.

A shared faith and common values are a huge starting point, as you both will understand that the friendship is to serve God as much as it is to feel brotherhood. And from there can brotherhood blossom: being part of a community of men, not just one or two friends.

I will say that I agree that meeting up for drinks only is very weak and has been the cause of me cutting off many a secular friendship: soy boy territory.
 

papashango

Sparrow
Non-Christian
Forgive me, but only a man of no faith will highlight "doing things together" as being enough. Which that Guardian article I highlighted in my opening post lamely posits.

A shared faith and common values are a huge starting point, as you both will understand that the friendship is to serve God as much as it is to feel brotherhood. And from there can brotherhood blossom: being part of a community of men, not just one or two friends.

I will say that I agree that meeting up for drinks only is very weak and has been the cause of me cutting off many a secular friendship: soy boy territory.

I agree that that underpinning of faith is the most solid foundation to build upon, but as has been observed here, you can't just take someone's word for it.

A lot of men seem to be coming to faith via self-development, why not look at places where men who are trying to better themselves would tend to be?
 

AHaytch

Sparrow
Non-Christian
A lot of men seem to be coming to faith via self-development, why not look at places where men who are trying to better themselves would tend to be?
You mean like in a Church, or Mosque?

Again a person of non faith, such as yourself, is completely oblivious to this. I've not met any male in a mosque, for example, who is "pretending" to believe. Faith is not an addendum to your lifestyle, an extra. It's your identity. It helps you grow. Those who go regularly to places of worship recognise this.
 

papashango

Sparrow
Non-Christian
You mean like in a Church, or Mosque?

Again a person of non faith, such as yourself, is completely oblivious to this. I've not met any male in a mosque, for example, who is "pretending" to believe. Faith is not an addendum to your lifestyle, an extra. It's your identity. It helps you grow. Those who go regularly to places of worship recognise this.

So your response to a stranger making suggestions as to how you can make better friendships is sanctimonious dismissal?

You said yourself that you can't vouch for strong male bonds inside a church, and were unable to make a friend after 12 weeks on a course. You've also said you have always struggled with reliable male friendships, outside the church, and now seemingly inside the church. But apparently you know exactly what it takes to form strong friendships...?

It's almost as if the problem might be you
 

AHaytch

Sparrow
Non-Christian
^Indeed, I'm dismissive of secular twaddle such as the suggestion posited by you (join a gym bro!), and without a deeper understanding of what faith encompasses.

I'm not sure anywhere I've written "I know exactly what it takes to form strong friendships", but do correct me.
No need to project feminine energy with personal attacks.
 
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Cynllo

Kingfisher
Other Christian
Much of the is due to universityfication.


I've know all of my friends since I was about 10. Another from 15. The only change in this circle is people I already knew coming into it.

I've found that all of the people I know who went to university have little to no contact with childhood friends. If it was not for Facebook et. al. that would be less.

I am not part of the mainstream groups of people from my town. And I haven't spent much time there in years. I don't really agree with how they live, I.e. boozing and frivolities. But I see they have something which most of the universityified have lost - quite a strong sense of belonging and for the males, camaraderie. I think the fact most lefty tossers have left for the cities strengthens that, as their isn't the subversive mother hen influence they bring.

My father died recently. He lived a life like the above, that I don't really agree with. But he had something I don't really have, and the universitified don't.

He belonged somewhere.

His funeral was full of people who'd know him for up to about 55 years. What will be the deepest bonds that turn up to the funeral of the universitified?

The bonds mentioned are typically formed in childhood, but many throw them away, often in the excitement of youth.

What is the ideal amount of people moving around? Consider if your town was replace with new people every 10, 5, 3 years. Or maybe everyone gets new parents every 10, 5, 3 years. It's the kind of thing the idiot left are probably already dreaming up, because having the right parents breeds privilege.

The answer is, society is strongest when people don't move around a lot. Universityfication is the cause of the rotting out of towns and the creation of IQ shreder cities.

Society needs an upper class, who must enforce The Moral Order. Without that the lower class degenerate. And it seems that when the middle class separate themselves from the lower they disappear into make believe.
 

papashango

Sparrow
Non-Christian
^Indeed, I'm dismissive of secular twaddle such as the suggestion posited by you (join a gym bro!), and without a deeper understanding of what faith encompasses.

I'm not sure anywhere I've written "I know exactly what it takes to form strong friendships", but do correct me.
No need to project feminine energy with personal attacks.

Go and read your own posts, mate. Good luck with that attitude of yours.
 

Jive Turkey

Kingfisher
Orthodox Catechumen
Much of the is due to universityfication.


I've know all of my friends since I was about 10. Another from 15. The only change in this circle is people I already knew coming into it.

I've found that all of the people I know who went to university have little to no contact with childhood friends. If it was not for Facebook et. al. that would be less.

I am not part of the mainstream groups of people from my town. And I haven't spent much time there in years. I don't really agree with how they live, I.e. boozing and frivolities. But I see they have something which most of the universityified have lost - quite a strong sense of belonging and for the males, camaraderie. I think the fact most lefty tossers have left for the cities strengthens that, as their isn't the subversive mother hen influence they bring.

My father died recently. He lived a life like the above, that I don't really agree with. But he had something I don't really have, and the universitified don't.

He belonged somewhere.

His funeral was full of people who'd know him for up to about 55 years. What will be the deepest bonds that turn up to the funeral of the universitified?

The bonds mentioned are typically formed in childhood, but many throw them away, often in the excitement of youth.

What is the ideal amount of people moving around? Consider if your town was replace with new people every 10, 5, 3 years. Or maybe everyone gets new parents every 10, 5, 3 years. It's the kind of thing the idiot left are probably already dreaming up, because having the right parents breeds privilege.

The answer is, society is strongest when people don't move around a lot. Universityfication is the cause of the rotting out of towns and the creation of IQ shreder cities.

Society needs an upper class, who must enforce The Moral Order. Without that the lower class degenerate. And it seems that when the middle class separate themselves from the lower they disappear into make believe.
Someone was has been watching their Auron MacIntyre :)

But yes I agree, role models and leaders leaving communities has a horrible effect on towns. And hasn't made cities bastions of morality either, coincidentally.
 

GigaBITE

Sparrow
Oriental Orthodox
In 2017, I was completely secular, verging on far left, but enough to notice the excesses of leftists, though I dared not call them out. I befriended a guy at my job and, over time, revealed to him that I used to read 4chan but stopped because of the far-right associations. As we became closer, I started to let my guard down and talk to him about my problems with the left and how crazy I felt things were getting. He started asking me a lot of personal questions. One day, he suddenly quit his job, then messaged me with a bunch of "redpilling" material and invited me to also quit my job. I freaked out and stopped talking to him. He messaged me a few more times after that but I never responded since I still wasn't ready to take the pill.

Since then, though, my one good friend that I've had since high school, has become increasingly SJW. I once voiced my annoyance with the trans movement and he reprimanded me, telling me I was a bigot. We still kept in touch, I suppose out of a sense of obligation, since we had been friends for such a sustained amount of time, but over the years I even stopped responding to his "special occasion" (birthdays, Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc) text messages. The problem was evident quite earlier, though, since he's the kind of person who would very obviously become envious if I reported on a recent success, or immediately try to exclude me from hanging out with a friend of his if he detected that we were getting along and had more shared interests than he did. Very feminine. He is the kind of person who will say he is a Christian if he is in a Christian social setting but say he is not very religious if he is in a secular or corporate one. I couldn't deal with that kind of behavior anymore. The last time I saw him, he seemed disturbed and somewhat annoyed when I told him I was reading the Bible every day and going to church on Sundays.

I still think about those two, though, because they're the closest friends I've probably ever had. There were others, but they sort of came and went.
 

Mike_Key

Woodpecker
I was blessed to always have good groups. This was mostly all my life, but things can and do change later in life - if you don't make efforts to get out there. The trouble is - 80% is getting out there while 20% is having fun and making memories. I was never a follower, but not really a leader - only if needed would I step up.

Outside of HS football (college) or the Military - as an adult you can surround yourself with "sport friends". Maybe billiards, golf or Rec basketball would work for you. I enjoyed mountain sports and, interestingly enough, walking - power walking for 7 to 8 hours in the sun and under tree canopies. You get to talk quite a bit with some activities and not so much with others.

I noticed that men should ask questions of one another. In mountain sports - you will be close enough to make plans and save each other's lives. However, I've seen instances where men can hangout for 8 to 10 years and never know that one of them has a PhD or that the other can build a car from start to finish. If you have a good speaker and listener in the group - these questions will be asked.

Hurdles? Money can be one. Another can be baby sitting. Grandmothers are not that great these days. Try your best to work around these problem areas.

Stay away from vices.

John 3:16
 

BasilSeal

Kingfisher
Catholic
Gold Member
I have about 3-4 good male friendships that I've established over a lifetime. With some effort, I can see each one about once every few years for 2-3 hours of conversation. That is mostly centered around our family, how our lives have changed, our health, what we manage to find for hobbies lately, interesting books we have read, light politics maybe, and depending on where they are in life, I can also discuss religion comfortably.

In terms of a companion, a male friend is no substitute to me for my wife and family. The companionship is always enjoyable, but very incomplete. I definitely value these friends, though. It is good just to hear about their lives and to share in the good things that happen to them, and support them when things are not so good. As you get older, that often includes supporting them in sickness and at funerals.
 

AHaytch

Sparrow
Non-Christian
I have about 3-4 good male friendships that I've established over a lifetime. With some effort, I can see each one about once every few years for 2-3 hours of conversation. That is mostly centered around our family, how our lives have changed, our health, what we manage to find for hobbies lately, interesting books we have read, light politics maybe, and depending on where they are in life, I can also discuss religion comfortably.

In terms of a companion, a male friend is no substitute to me for my wife and family. The companionship is always enjoyable, but very incomplete. I definitely value these friends, though. It is good just to hear about their lives and to share in the good things that happen to them, and support them when things are not so good. As you get older, that often includes supporting them in sickness and at funerals.
This reads very wholesomely. It gives me the comforting impression of a generation of friends growing up together in the same place/geographical area and building their lives, with each other serving as reference points of life transition.

Modern secular liberalism likes to feed the illusion that friends are "the family you choose" - choice being a great weapon liberal secularists like to base everything around. Alas, in my 20s and much of my 30s I was seduced by the allure of foreign travel and upping sticks as often as I could, discarding place, in search of that elusive group of people or person I could belong to and form my identity around. It didn't work. It seldom does if you're not prepared to commit to the trials and travails of being rooted.
 

Viktor Zeegelaar

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
Talking to a normie about the world and life is like talking about Einstein to someone who can't put 2+2 together. I barely feel any connection with anyone anymore after going through the rabbithole. Old normie friends catch up thri monthly to have lunch for an hour is ok, but after an hour all is said. You realize that all your past relationships depended heavily on drinking and going out. Only solution is sadly to sacrifice a bunch of pieces on the chessboard and find your way to people who see it one way or another.
 

hedonist

Kingfisher
Other Christian
Talking to a normie about the world and life is like talking about Einstein to someone who can't put 2+2 together. I barely feel any connection with anyone anymore after going through the rabbithole. Old normie friends catch up thri monthly to have lunch for an hour is ok, but after an hour all is said. You realize that all your past relationships depended heavily on drinking and going out. Only solution is sadly to sacrifice a bunch of pieces on the chessboard and find your way to people who see it one way or another.

I was going to post in the drinking thread once you quit its normal to realize 50% or higher of friends aren't really friends or good influences in that scene.
A handful of good friends is worth more than 1000 acquaintances, if you need proof just look any time someone famous or an "influencer" crashes down.

I'd warn the rabbit hole can lead to some false paths that are just as bad as the NPC programming so you have to choose wisely.
 
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