Heuristics said:
We're getting to the heart of an interesting meta-debate that has being going on in the PUA community, traditionalist/ conservative communities, and civilization for thousands of years. There is likely no easy answer, and the debate will continue.
The Maddona/Whore complex affects too many man-- many men that are otherwise highly rational thinkers who instead of resorting to cultural programming use solid evidence and observation to form their opinions. Why doesn’t it happen with this issue? Probably because men are resorting to their feelings and biases instead of evidence and knowledge of human nature.
What exactly are you referring to when you say "Madonna/Whore complex"?
Simply wanting a virgin wife (and seeing non-virgins as "whores" who would not consider marrying) does not constitute a madonna/whore complex. A "
madonna/whore complex" is when a man is only attracted to women who he considers "whores" and is not able to get aroused by "good girls" who he respects.
Heuristics said:
Without going too deeply there are several characteristics of men and women that are obvious and can be backed up by solid evidence: a) women have less sexual drive then men, b) infidelity has always been an issue even in conservative societies, the reason you don't hear about it is because it was taboo to talk about. It still happened. c) instant gratification has permeated the lifestyles/ value systems of both men and women… Ask yourself how ok you are with pumping and dumping. Why is that? Do you bear some responsibility for your behavior? Of course you do, but in many ways you are only as good as your programming. If your programming is bad, you should get better programming. You should make yourself a stand up man, rather than following a corrupted crowd.
Men have always been down to pump and dump. It was women who did not allow this in the past. It is not a man's fault that a woman allows him to pump and dump her. You (as a man) are not "ruining" this woman for her future husband. If she is allowing herself to be pumped and dumped by you, you probably are not the first nor the last man she will allow to do this.
I know a lot of guys here have solid game and what not, but if a truly good girl (not that there are many of those left in the West) is determined to save herself for marriage, or to not cheat on her husband, she simply won't give up the ass no matter how good your game is.
Heuristics said:
While more women in the past were indeed virgins, we had more community-oriented societies, both men and women were married younger, there was less tolerance of degeneracy, and people didn’t live as long.
This is actually a very misleading statistic. When you were taught in history class that people in the past did not live as long, and that the average human lifespan in the middle ages was under under 50 years, these numbers averaged in all infant deaths, which was close to half of all people. If you have two kids and one dies when he is a baby and the other dies at 90, then the average lifespan of your children would be 45 yerars. However, that statistic is obviously misleading.
Heuristics said:
This was a time before women were in the workforce, and it was a time when many men died in wars or in hard industrial jobs.
If a woman is not in Utah, an Amish farm, or Saudi Arabia, there is really little hope of her engaging in a non-promiscuous lifestyle at some point, virgin (currently) or not. Society will tempt women, and that’s something we’re going to have to live with. There is little difference from a virgin who has not yet been exposed to corruption, but who will be, and a woman who participated ever so slightly in modern society butt then turned away from its less desirable parts. The virgin, and the low notch count conservative girl will be in the same place at some point in their lives.
Actually, there is a big difference. The important thing is a girl's actions (moreso than her intentions or thoughts). If a girl is physically a virgin, then there is a big difference between her and a woman who is not.
Also, if you manage to wife up a woman while she is still a virgin, then there is less of a chance she will fall into society's corruption when she gets exposed to it. If she is not a virgin and has already had premarital sex, then she
already has fallen into society's corruption.
Heuristics said:
Most men can’t handle a virgin because they have weak frames and probably have poor moral character that prevents them from seeing the long-term picture. Men want it both ways, but life is full of tradeoffs—any non-delusional self-aware person will tell you that.
What do you mean men want it "both ways"? I assume you mean that men want to fuck around and have casual sex when they're young, and then marry a virgin when they get older.
I get what you're saying, but unfortunately, if one man by himself decides not to pump and dump chicks, he will not be able to fix society by himself. Those chicks will simply get pumped and dumped by other guys. If you can't change the way modern women are, why not get in on the action and at least get what you can out of a bad situation?
If you do this as a young man, and then later decide that you want a family and want a virgin, that is fine. There is no obligation that you accept promiscuous women just because you were a promiscuous man yourself. This is not a double standard. It's two different standards. Men can have tons of casual sex and still be marriage-worthy partners (as long as they have money, status, etc.), but for women, it is not the same. If you were a ladies man in your youth, you should not be punished for this by being forced into accepting a slut as a wife.
This is basically red-pill theory 101.
Heuristics said:
Ultimately I prefer dealing with known variables rather than taking a gamble on a virgin...
Huh? So you would rather take a known whore than take a "chance" on a virgin (out of fear that she might become a whore)?
This makes no sense whatsoever.
Heuristics said:
...who’s future is very uncertain given the direction society is heading, and also because anything can happen. I still hold up the virgin as an ideal, but we live in the real world, and I can’t control to a high degree the conditions around me. Short of having a compound in Utah and converting to Mormonism, there is little I can do.
With globalization however, men have more choices than ever, and probably more choices than women. This is simply because men take more risks than women. It’s in our DNA, and if you are unsatisfied with quality of women you’re dealing with, notch counts, you can make changes. Some of which are easy, some of which are hard.
What if men overcame their thirst, and instead of banging sloots, strengthened society with their achievements and character and THOT patrolled all the hoes, creating their own families rather than turning to base urges? Sure maybe it’s utopian thinking, but I have hope.
Men are simply reacting and adjusting to what's out there. If all that is out there is "sloots", then men will bang them. A few centuries ago, when there were hardly any "sloots" and most women wanted to get married and beome mothers, men got married relatively young, didn't bang "sloots" or "THOTs," and focused their lives on building society and protecting their families.
However, you're simply not going to change human nature. As long as the
West is full of sluts and feminism is running rampant, men are not simply going to change and become near-celibate in hopes that this will change society for the better. This is most certainly utopian thinking.
