Mark Minter is getting married?

[worldwidetraveler]

I'm fine with calling him a hypocrite.

I don't see why guys take it so personally though. So he espoused one thing and did another?

So what?

What, like he BETRAYED you or something?

No, he did not betray you.

He did not betray himself.

He did not betray anyone.

He didn't steal from you. He didn't didle any young boys. He didn't spit on the flag.

He was just a hypocrite.

Big deal.

Being a hypocrite is not a crime that has automatic equivilencies to all other bad crimes. He was hypocritical ABOUT a SPECIFIC thing. Not about some OTHER thing. About a SPECIFIC thing.

Look, what he espoused to begin with was fucked up. So he betrayed fucked up principles.

His fucked up principles were not getting him what he wanted.

His whole schtick was fucked up, and guys want him to remain constant to his original fucked up ness.

Wow. What great friends you were to him.

What a great loss it is to him to lose your respect.

You seem to be taking this personally. Why do you care if someone thinks he is a hypocrite?

Mark is the one who has come back with excuses for his behavior. Obviously he does care what others here think otherwise he wouldn't have posted.

Now you are trying to frame this as if people here was friends with Mark. With all the excuses you are making for Mark, it seems like you either identify with him or is a friend of his.

You're making yourself look overly emotional and foolish.

 

[LeCorbusier]

The idea of immutable principles is not what I am discussing. I am just saying that anyone who makes bold declarations about something repeatedly and then renegs on those declarations should be considered a hypocrite. That is all I am saying. I am not discussing the overall principle of never changing your views. Indeed, views do change. For better or worse. I am arguing that regardless of the direction of that change, an individual is a hypocrite. It may indeed be as you mentioned, that it is better overall for that person to be a hypocrite and have changed their beliefs than not. But they are still a hypocrite.

I'm fine with calling him a hypocrite.

I don't see why guys take it so personally though. So he espoused one thing and did another?

So what?

What, like he BETRAYED you or something?

No, he did not betray you.

He did not betray himself.

He did not betray anyone.

He didn't steal from you. He didn't didle any young boys. He didn't spit on the flag.

He was just a hypocrite.

Big deal.

Being a hypocrite is not a crime that has automatic equivalences to all other bad crimes. He was hypocritical ABOUT a SPECIFIC thing. Not about some OTHER thing. About a SPECIFIC thing.

Look, what he espoused to begin with was fucked up. So he betrayed fucked up principles.

His fucked up principles were not getting him what he wanted.

His whole schtick was fucked up, and guys want him to remain constant to his original fucked up ness.

Wow. What great friends you were to him.

What a great loss it is to him to lose your respect.

I'm glad you wrote this. "He was just a hypocrite." To me hypocritical behavior is abhorrent. Even in a single instance like this, I feel it indicates something about the man in general. I could never trust a man like this or someone who thinks it is a small deal to be hypocritical. But I appreciate your view. A discussion like this is what I hoped for when I joined the forum- I haven't been let down.

 

[xsplat]

The idea of immutable principles is not what I am discussing. I am just saying that anyone who makes bold declarations about something repeatedly and then renegs on those declarations should be considered a hypocrite. That is all I am saying. I am not discussing the overall principle of never changing your views. Indeed, views do change. For better or worse. I am arguing that regardless of the direction of that change, an individual is a hypocrite. It may indeed be as you mentioned, that it is better overall for that person to be a hypocrite and have changed their beliefs than not. But they are still a hypocrite.

I'm fine with calling him a hypocrite.

I don't see why guys take it so personally though. So he espoused one thing and did another?

So what?

What, like he BETRAYED you or something?

No, he did not betray you.

He did not betray himself.

He did not betray anyone.

He didn't steal from you. He didn't didle any young boys. He didn't spit on the flag.

He was just a hypocrite.

Big deal.

Being a hypocrite is not a crime that has automatic equivalences to all other bad crimes. He was hypocritical ABOUT a SPECIFIC thing. Not about some OTHER thing. About a SPECIFIC thing.

Look, what he espoused to begin with was fucked up. So he betrayed fucked up principles.

His fucked up principles were not getting him what he wanted.

His whole schtick was fucked up, and guys want him to remain constant to his original fucked up ness.

Wow. What great friends you were to him.

What a great loss it is to him to lose your respect.

I'm glad you wrote this. "He was just a hypocrite." To me hypocritical behavior is abhorrent. Even in a single instance like this, I feel it indicates something about the man in general. I could never trust a man like this or someone who thinks it is a small deal to be hypocritical. But I appreciate your view. A discussion like this is what I hoped for when I joined the forum- I haven't been let down.

It does say a lot about Mark that he was hypocritical. But he had to be, though, didn't he? He never owned his own emotional need for intimacy. He split that off from himself, and imputed it onto OTHER, weaker, less knowledgable men.

That was a huge mistake in self understanding.

What's more, rather than just split off his own longings onto weaker men, he saw others doing the same thing, and used that as a means to gain an audience. He used that audience for attention for his creative urges. He used the needs of others for a community of like-minded-victims-of-fail as a claim to fame and status, to a claim to a readership.

Of course his stance was untenable. He was lonely. He could not keep up such a stance unless no one offered intimacy to him.

But given the choices of being discovered as lacking in self knowledge and therefore switching strategies by being a hypocrite to a previous stated stance that would never feed your repressed desires for intimacy, and sticking to your guns and avoiding intimacy and being lonely and broke with little hope of ever meeting as good an offer ever again, which would you choose?

No one wants to be hypocritical. And no one wants to be wrong, either. Mark was wrong about not wanting intimacy, therefore he had no choice but to eventually become a hypocrite.

 

[Celtic]

Look at the comment Mark Minter wrote on Return of Kings: http://www.returnofkings.com/14846/mark-minter-is-a-phony#comment-979597403

To be "Branded" like this, to have ensigns of rank ripped of my shoulders, to be drummed out like this, for marrying a manosphere woman, is going to be quite a shock. And frankly I don't think the relationship will withstand so public a humiliation.

Minter himself made the same point that I did- how is this relationship going to last his complete loss of status? And what a bitch thing to day! He just said in public that his relationship wouldn't be able to survive internet criticism! What sort of omega says that sort of thing about the woman he wants to marry- that his relationship won't survive because of what people on the internet are saying?

Only someone with no confidence at all would say such a thing. And someone with such little confidence has no hope of maintaining an LTR.

I feel this all proves the points he originally made about marriage. Clearly, his divorce broke him down so much and turned him into what he is.

 

[dog24]

A hypocrit is not a guy who realizes that his own decisions and beliefs who affect only him and maybe other guys who look up to some stranger theyve never met? Are affecting his life is a negative way. Like someone said before thats self-improvement. Its been discussed before i cant remember where that he was still in an anger phase why do you guys take what some stranger says to heart? I honestly believe it is because of your own fear of being an hypocrit one day and admitting that this lifestyle do has some dark side and that is lack of intimacy beyond sex that a couple of flings just dont seem to fullfil.

 

[Edmund Dantes]

Poor Mark. I know he lied and betrayed what he stood for but I understand why he did it. From what I read, he's broke, lonely, old and unhappy. He hit rock bottom after his divorce. As someone who was insanely close to that point, I'm happy for him. I pray that no one gets to the point because the strength you think you have is way less than the reality.

Has this "scandal" hurt the manosphere? Possibly but the bickering about it only worsens it. WE NEED TO BE UNITED! Mark fucked up but the faster we put this behind us, the faster we can do something productive.

 

[pitt]

Well, now you are making a different argument. You are saying that his strategy for happiness now is not as good as his previous strategy. That might be true. Might not.

But notice that is an argument about strategy to happiness, not about the importance of never changing your tactics, or as you seem think of, "going back on your principles".

No, I am not making a different argument.

You were saying it is alright to change your principles to be happy. Happiness isn't a black and white thing but you seem to be trying to make it one.

I am saying and have been saying that you don't need to lose your principles to be happy. Only weak men do.

Oh really?

So lets say you are a christian and you rely a lot in god to change your life. You pray, pray and pray and your life is not changing at all. You decide to start taking action and you discover that actions are greater than god.

The fact that you need to follow the commandments of the bible is not really giving you that much happiness. You want to sleep with lots of girls but you can't because you want to go to heaven and live for ''the rest of your life''.

After few months, you decide to live a life that gives you more freedom and happiness. You decide to stop believing in god and live a normal life. Are you a weak man because of that? Are you a man that deserves to be disrespected because you dont have solid principles? Is it really better to maintain your principles than to become happy?

Xsplat made very good points. Although i still think that Mark is hypocrite. You don't change such worldview so fast when you are a man with life experience and some dignity.

Maybe he is using a financial strategy here. Maybe he wants to get married in order to have a better financial life.

Wouldn't you guys get married to a woman who is making 10 times more money than you?

He doesnt have a job and I am sure he is not in love with this woman. It could be a strategy to save him from his financial situation.

Probably he is being smart here in adopting this approach for his current situation, solid principles may not work so well right now.

 

[xsplat]

Only someone with no confidence at all would say such a thing. And someone with such little confidence has no hope of maintaining an LTR.

I feel this all proves the points he originally made about marriage. Clearly, his divorce broke him down so much and turned him into what he is.

Ya, that was really bad game, on his part. I agree with you that his LTR game will need a LOT of improvement.

 

[Blaster]

Hypocrisy is an overrated problem. There are times when pointing out hypocrisy is important and times when it's just plain amusing but more often than not, identifying a hypocrite is nothing but a mild curiosity, at best an interim step in the process of helping someone grow. Far too often people react like outing a hypocrite is the whole point of a discussion, rather than the actual stuff you started talking about in the first place.

 

[worldwidetraveler]

Oh really?

So lets say you are a christian and you rely a lot in god to change your life. You pray, pray and pray and your life is not changing at all. You decide to start taking action and you discover that actions are greater than god.

The fact that you need to follow the commandments of the bible is not really giving you that much happiness. You want to sleep with lots of girls but you can't because you want to go to heaven and live for ''the rest of your life''.

Yeah really.

If you have beliefs but give them up for a piece of ass you are weak. I would have thought guys here would understand that.

Xsplat made very good points. Although i still think that Mark is hypocrite. You don't change such worldview so fast when you are a man with life experience and some dignity.

You just contradicted yourself. Xsplat believe in flexible principles when it suits your happiness. Flexibility is fast. It flip flops depending on the situation. You can steal when it makes you happy then say stealing is bad when it happens to you.

Wouldn't you guys get married to a woman who is making 10 times more money than you?

No, I rather earn my own money.

He doesnt have a job and I am sure he is not in love with this woman. It could be a strategy to save him from his financial situation.

Maybe he should man up and take care of his financial situation. Crazy thought, eh?

Probably he is being smart here in adopting this approach for his current situation, solid principles may not work so well right now.

Mark of a weak man.

 

[eradicator]

And no one respects hypocrites. Thus, no one respects Minter anymore.

That said, I still do not judge him too harshly for it. He grew up in a different world than most of us, and he was unable to overcome his programming. I understand his faults but I do not respect him for it.

I went back and read some of his longer comments and am baffled that anyone respected his opinions in the first place. He was definitely angry, and kept saying 'don't make the mistakes I made'.

While I understand that many men can relate to being in that position, that doesn't make anything he said very helpful to anyone.

 

[pitt]

Happiness over everything. What good is a principle if it does not make you happy? If your principles need to be flexible in order to suit your happiness so be it.

Dont listen to the messenger, listen to the message. His writings wouldn't suit him so well at his age but it probably would work fine for a young guy.

 

[xsplat]

And no one respects hypocrites. Thus, no one respects Minter anymore.

That said, I still do not judge him too harshly for it. He grew up in a different world than most of us, and he was unable to overcome his programming. I understand his faults but I do not respect him for it.

I went back and read some of his longer comments and am baffled that anyone respected his opinions in the first place. He was definitely angry, and kept saying 'don't make the mistakes I made'.

While I understand that many men can relate to being in that position, that doesn't make anything he said very helpful to anyone.

Yes, I think it is incontestable that Mark had desires that he hid from himself and the public. He stridently claimed to neither want nor need intimacy.

Therefore the life strategy that he admonished others to take had this gaping huge hole in it. Intimacy.

Therefore the life strategy he admonished others to take was FUCKED UP and useless.

Now, he may or may not be making the best possible strategic choice right now, but at least he can't hide from his own desire for intimacy anymore. No matter what he does, from now on he'll have to include that desire into his life plans.

 

[worldwidetraveler]

Happiness over everything. What good is a principle if it does not make you happy? If your principles need to be flexible in order to suit your happiness so be it.

Dont listen to the messenger, listen to the message. His writings wouldn't suit him so well at his age but it probably would work fine for a young guy.

Why can't you be happy and still maintain your belief system?

 

[pitt]

Happiness over everything. What good is a principle if it does not make you happy? If your principles need to be flexible in order to suit your happiness so be it.

Dont listen to the messenger, listen to the message. His writings wouldn't suit him so well at his age but it probably would work fine for a young guy.

Why can't you be happy and still maintain your belief system?

Is this a serious question dude? I expected more from you, I am shocked that you are sceptical about this.

 

[eradicator]

Happiness over everything. What good is a principle if it does not make you happy? If your principles need to be flexible in order to suit your happiness so be it.

Dont listen to the messenger, listen to the message. His writings wouldn't suit him so well at his age but it probably would work fine for a young guy.

Why can't you be happy and still maintain your belief system?

You can, but if you make your belief system grounded in anger, well don't expect to be happy.

 

[worldwidetraveler]

Happiness over everything. What good is a principle if it does not make you happy? If your principles need to be flexible in order to suit your happiness so be it.

Dont listen to the messenger, listen to the message. His writings wouldn't suit him so well at his age but it probably would work fine for a young guy.

Why can't you be happy and still maintain your belief system?

Is this a serious question dude? I expected more from you, I am shocked that you are sceptical about this.

Dude, I worked my ass off for what I want.

I am not asking for a handout or getting married because I am a loser with no future.

I am far happier than I have ever been and I haven't had to sell myself out.

Principles will change over time, but they are not of a flexible manner. You either believe something or you don't. It doesn't change in order to make your life more pleasant.

Some people just want the easy way out and will lie to themselves in order to get it.

If that is shocking, than I must have read you the wrong way Pitt.

I find it funny that you were complaining about your friend screwing you over and expect some sort of moral compass from them but have no problem being flexible when it comes to your own happiness.

 

[xsplat]

I find it funny that you were complaining about your friend screwing you over and expect some sort of moral compass from them but have no problem being flexible when it comes to your own happiness.

You really don't understand how to use analogies. You make associations and think that the associations are logical, but you don't really understand how logic works.

Again, and again, and again, and again. You are trying to apply a meta principle onto specific situations where they do not hold.

People change their minds about things. All things. Even so called "principles". And not all things that people change their mind about are equivalent or related. It's not the SAME thing to change your mind about pedophilia as it is to change your mind about getting married as it is to change your mind about your religious beliefs. There is no principle of changing your mind about principles. That type of meta idea does not work. You are thinking by association and analogy and your very thinking process itself is flawed.

You are unable to see the utitility of a meta principle, and use it properly. You apply these meta-rules incorrectly. There is no principle about never changing principles. That idea will only lead to internal inconsistencies in your world view and/or calcified bone headed beliefs that will eventually go against your own and others interest.

In each instance of each belief, truth and utility must be weighed up individually. Not based on if changing your mind about pedophilia is wrong or not. Not by analogy or association. On it's own merits, in light of all information, including new information.

 

[Samseau]

Happiness over everything. What good is a principle if it does not make you happy? If your principles need to be flexible in order to suit your happiness so be it.

Dont listen to the messenger, listen to the message. His writings wouldn't suit him so well at his age but it probably would work fine for a young guy.

I don't know how a man can be happy if he doesn't stick to his principles.

 

[worldwidetraveler]

I find it funny that you were complaining about your friend screwing you over and expect some sort of moral compass from them but have no problem being flexible when it comes to your own happiness.

You really don't understand how to use analogies. You make associations and think that the associations are logical, but you don't really understand how logic works.

Again, and again, and again, and again. You are trying to apply a meta principle onto specific situations where they do not hold.

People change their minds about things. All things. Even so called "principles". And not all things that people change their mind about are equivalent or related. It's not the SAME thing to change your mind about pedophilia as it is to change your mind about getting married as it is to change your mind about your religious beliefs. There is no principle of changing your mind about principles. That type of meta idea does not work. You are thinking by association and analogy and your very thinking process itself is flawed.

Of course my thinking is flawed, it goes against what you think.

Your belief system is of convenience. You wouldn't understand what I am talking about.