Meat eating / Vegetarianism in the current world

[Max Roscoe]

I was vegan for years, was about as healthy as one can be doing that, but it's just not an appropriate diet for humans. I now get about 80% of my calories from animal sources. I aim for grass fed, but more importantly I just do "natural" stuff. Eggs, ribeyes, a curry with fresh meat, veg, and spices. Natural is a hand wavy word, but I mean avoiding seed oils, preservatives, etc.

The fat soluble vitamins in animal products are crucial. Don't rely on what you see on the nutrition information on products. Just because something strictly speaking has however many milligrams of some vitamin or mineral as measured by blending it, putting it in solution, and extracting with a reagent doesn't mean that your body is going to get that many milligrams of it or that your body can convert that form of the vitamin into something it can use. Youtube is full of vegans obsessing over chronometer figures showing that they're getting so much of this or that vitamin, and yet they're still lethargic and weak and menopausal in their 20s. Plants alone simply are not an acceptable source of nutrients.

I'm extremely interested in how you left veganism.
I have no problem with vegetarians, though I think eating meat is good for you, at least occasionally. It can be as little as fish every Friday. If nothing else, one needs to cut back on carbs and meats, which are heavier in proteins and fat, are naturally low carb. Vegetarians are pro-vegetable. But vegans are anti-animal. There is a huge difference. Positivity vs negativity. There is the old joke about how can you know if someone is a vegan? Dont worry... they will tell you. I found vegans are obsessed about food to an unhealthy degree, and then when I examine their diets, they eat less salad than I do. They love to talk about the old foods they are "no longer able" to eat. You don't see old ROK guys here talk about how much they miss banging sloots.

Vegans are far less concerned with how "good" any particular vegetable is, and more concerned about how any product from their shoelaces to their water bottles, involved a living animal. They are extremists and in my book mostly nuts. It's a shame because there could be something to the idea of cutting back on dairy. While I love cheese and ice creams I have noticed some digestion issues as I age. But dairy is very nutrient dense. I just consume it in moderation.

I know plenty of former vegetarians who now eat meat. But most vegans I know are still firmly anti-animal (they may eat garbage junk food, as long as it doesnt have butter in it). Setting aside the dietary issues, how were you able psychologically and socially leave the political mindset as a vegan, and have you seen any others change their views after becoming a vegan (Vegans typically identify as I AM VEGAN vs someone who eats a vegetarian diet). I'm very interested in people who make such an extreme change, from a sociological perspective.

 

[get2choppaaa]

A question, not just for you, but for everyone: how much more healthy is grass-fed beef than the normal commercially farmed stuff we get in the US? I hear different things and like with everything about nutrition, there doesn't seem to be much agreement.

Grass fed vs Grass finished. It is almost all grass fed until slaughtered, at which case it is finished with other nutrients before slaughter to add fat/marbling to the meat.

I suppose if you can afford it Grass Fed Beef will have better Omega 3 profile than Grain fed. I prefer the grain fed because it is cheaper and i can eat a lot more of it in my diet compared to a little grass fed and the rest turns into chicken breast.... (for context I grew up in a gourmet restaurant and have had both and flavor of a grain fed Prime Strip or Prime Beef Tenderloin is superior to a majority of the grass fed equivalents) If I were deficient in Omega 3's in my diet I would eat Wild Caught Salmon, or supplement with a QUALITY omega 3 supplement. The price of Grass fed over Grain fed is typically the biggest barrier.

It is kinda like "organic vegetables" There tends to be more pesticides "organic" or not that are put on the organic vegetables compared to trace amounts on the rest of the produce. We can argue about GMO good or bad, and absolutely soil quality has decreased in years due to industrial farming techniques...BUT..... when it comes down to it, most of the time the label "organic" is just a selling point and not really accurate, especially considering the cross contamination of pesticides when these are grown in two adjoining fields.

I'm extremely interested in how you left veganism.
I have no problem with vegetarians, though I think eating meat is good for you, at least occasionally. It can be as little as fish every Friday. Vegetarians are pro-vegetable. But vegans are anti-animal. There is a huge difference. There is the old joke about how can you know if someone is a vegan? Dont worry... they will tell you. I found vegans are obsessed about food to an unhealthy degree, and then when I examine their diets, they eat less salad than I do. They love to talk about the old foods they are "no longer able" to eat. You don't old ROK guys here talk about how much they miss banging sloots.

Vegans are far less concerned with how "good" any particular vegetable is, and more concerned about how any product from their shoelaces to their water bottles, involved a living animal. They are extremists and in my book mostly nuts. It's a shame because there could be something to the idea of cutting back on dairy. While I love cheese and ice creams I have noticed some digestion issues as I age. But dairy is very nutrient dense. I just consume it in moderation.

I know plenty of former vegetarians who now eat meat. But most vegans I know are still firmly anti-animal (they may eat garbage junk food, as long as it doesnt have butter in it). Setting aside the dietary issues, how were you able psychologically and socially leave the political mindset as a vegan, and have you seen any others change their views after becoming a vegan (Vegans typically identify as I AM VEGAN vs someone who eats a vegetarian diet). I'm very interested in people who make such an extreme change, from a sociological perspective.

You're right. Vegetarian is a diet style like Carnivore/Omnivore/Pescitarian.... Veganism is a mental disease that is not built on logic. These folks need meds or some other identity that will help them cope with being special and better than the rest of us.

 

[kel]

Okay, I'm not going to argue because we all know what the underlying argument is here. Vegetables have come to represent feminism, soy boys and globohomo so eating meat and no veggies means you're a big man....rah rah rah.

I know plenty of former vegetarians who now eat meat. But most vegans I know are still firmly anti-animal (they may eat garbage junk food, as long as it doesnt have butter in it). Setting aside the dietary issues, how were you able psychologically and socially leave the political mindset as a vegan, and have you seen any others change their views after becoming a vegan (Vegans typically identify as I AM VEGAN vs someone who eats a vegetarian diet). I'm very interested in people who make such an extreme change, from a sociological perspective.

97% of vegans end up going back to being meat eaters, so give it time. Even people quite "high up" so to speak. Youtube is full of influencers - I'm not talking some schmo who happened to be vegan, but people who built their whole personal brand and income around veganism - who've desisted. I would say the health and environmental aspect will actually end up being the big schism/realignment. There will be more and more vegans who did it for health, environmental, and animal rights reasons who come around to the fact that veganism is worse on all accounts, and they'll end up seeking out a more natural diet. Meanwhile, people who don't care one way or the other will end up taking up veganism both as a default (cheap junk food tends to be vegan, and vegan specialty food will continue to come down in price and increase in trendiness) and as part of the greater political moment (veganism as shibboleth).

 

[FrancisK]

Being a vegan for someone who believes it makes them healthier....meh I don't agree but you can't argue with someone trying to be healthier that's their choice, I don't have the place to tell someone how to live in regards to what they eat. Same as someone who believes they should only be eating meat.

Being a vegan because you're trying to make a statement about something.......yea you're an idiot and I agree they always fail at it because it's not based on anything real only on self vanity.

 

[Max Roscoe]

Do you have a citation for vegans going back to meat? I've seen reports of people who try vegetarian diets going back to meat in the 80+ percentile range but haven't seen anything on vegans and would expect their rates to be much lower as it's much more of a militant movement than people honestly trying diets motivated by facts and curiosity.

 

[bucky]

I'm extremely interested in how you left veganism.
I have no problem with vegetarians, though I think eating meat is good for you, at least occasionally. It can be as little as fish every Friday. If nothing else, one needs to cut back on carbs and meats, which are heavier in proteins and fat, are naturally low carb. Vegetarians are pro-vegetable. But vegans are anti-animal. There is a huge difference. Positivity vs negativity. There is the old joke about how can you know if someone is a vegan? Dont worry... they will tell you. I found vegans are obsessed about food to an unhealthy degree, and then when I examine their diets, they eat less salad than I do. They love to talk about the old foods they are "no longer able" to eat. You don't see old ROK guys here talk about how much they miss banging sloots.

Vegans are far less concerned with how "good" any particular vegetable is, and more concerned about how any product from their shoelaces to their water bottles, involved a living animal. They are extremists and in my book mostly nuts. It's a shame because there could be something to the idea of cutting back on dairy. While I love cheese and ice creams I have noticed some digestion issues as I age. But dairy is very nutrient dense. I just consume it in moderation.

I know plenty of former vegetarians who now eat meat. But most vegans I know are still firmly anti-animal (they may eat garbage junk food, as long as it doesnt have butter in it). Setting aside the dietary issues, how were you able psychologically and socially leave the political mindset as a vegan, and have you seen any others change their views after becoming a vegan (Vegans typically identify as I AM VEGAN vs someone who eats a vegetarian diet). I'm very interested in people who make such an extreme change, from a sociological perspective.

You didn't ask me, but I was almost vegan for years myself. I say almost because I could only go a few weeks before I absolutely needed to have an egg or some cheese to restore my energy levels. Now I understand that it was probably a lack of the vitamin b12 that's impossible to get through plant-based food that was causing it.

A lot of you are going to hate to hear this, but I actually felt great and got what were probably my best results in the gym when I was in this sort-of-vegan stage. I stopped because I eventually figured out that I needed some nutrients I couldn't get from the diet, and that was why I get needing to "cheat" once I a while, and that the vegan cheese and mayo I was eating was highly processed and probably less healthy than the real stuff. Also, the hardcore vegans really did seem strange and creepy to me. It was never a quasi-religious or virtue signaling thing to me, I just bought the propaganda that it was healthier. When I decided it wasn't I gradually went back to eating animal-based products.

 

[FrancisK]

You didn't ask me, but I was almost vegan for years myself. I say almost because I could only go a few weeks before I absolutely needed to have an egg or some cheese to restore my energy levels. Now I understand that it was probably a lack of the vitamin b12 that's impossible to get through plant-based food that was causing it.

A lot of you are going to hate to hear this, but I actually felt great and got what were probably my best results in the gym when I was in this sort-of-vegan stage. I stopped because I eventually figured out that I needed some nutrients I couldn't get from the diet, and that was why I get needing to "cheat" once I a while, and that the vegan cheese and mayo I was eating was highly processed and probably less healthy than the real stuff. Also, the hardcore vegans really did seem strange and creepy to me. It was never a quasi-religious or virtue signaling thing to me, I just bought the propaganda that it was healthier. When I decided it wasn't I gradually went back to eating animal-based products.

I could see that, my little sister went vegan for a while and it fixed a lot of her personal girl issues along with other things such as acne and obviously she also lost weight. Pretty much everyone I have met who has tried going vegan or even vegetarian has said they felt great doing it but they all went back to eating meat eventually, it's extremely difficult to sustain and not feasible for most people in my opinion. I'm not a big workout=protein guy I'm big enough as it is and not trying to gain weight/mass but I couldn't even imagine how much romaine lettuce I would have to eat to keep from losing muscle working out!

 

[yarqur]

Where in did you not see where I stated that God gave us dominion over the animals. Clearly you don't do well with delineation between idioms and literal statements..

Your presumption that I haven't researched evolution or that I believe in it is false. I do not believe in the evolutionary model presented in schools.

That notwithstanding, stating that our stomachs process food a certain way, that we are in the top of the food chain, does not imply that God is not the architect of our body. That is infact your inference, but not my implication when taken in-toto with the post at whole.

But thank you for disregarding the point of my comment only to latch on to one idiom at the end which you took out of context.

Are you now implying certain verses in Genesis and elsewhere are not literal statements but rather idioms? And then implying that you are in fact an evolutionist (theistic evolutionists are still evolutionists) in which case I didn't interpret you wrong at all? Just questioning.

What nerve did I hit? If you're not an evolutionist then why do you respond with a personal attack? You could just clarify your confusing statements. I'm sorry that I didn't realize when you said "we didn't make it to the top of the food chain" you didn't actually mean what you said. But you have some really high standards for people if you expect them to decipher whatever it is that you say, instead of trying to be more clear yourself. What you said can't be logically inferred to mean what you're telling me now, I would have to know you didn't mean what you said. Semantics is how evolutionists fool the world, so excuse me for being precise.

And to be clear I was implying that if you do your research about evolution you have to be really "low IQ" to come out an evolutionist of any kind after, but nothing about you personally. If that pertains to you then it serves as a challenge, if not, then great. That should be easier to interpret how I meant it than interpreting your last statement how you are explaining it.

 

[bucky]

I could see that, my little sister went vegan for a while and it fixed a lot of her personal girl issues along with other things such as acne and obviously she also lost weight. Pretty much everyone I have met who has tried going vegan or even vegetarian has said they felt great doing it but they all went back to eating meat eventually, it's extremely difficult to sustain and not feasible for most people in my opinion. I'm not a big workout=protein guy I'm big enough as it is and not trying to gain weight/mass but I couldn't even imagine how much romaine lettuce I would have to eat to keep from losing muscle working out!

I actually loved most of the vegan food I was eating. I was counting calories and protein, making sure I got in at least 4,000 calories a day and at least close to whatever my recommended daily protein was. I was also pushing myself to my limits in the gym. I didn't get big, but then again I'm natty and haven't gotten much bigger since I started eating meat again. I looked great though, very cut, a build similar to Brad Pitt in Fight Club. I was close to the strongest I've ever been too.

 

[FrancisK]

I actually loved most of the vegan food I was eating. I was counting calories and protein, making sure I got in at least 4,000 calories a day and at least close to whatever my recommended daily protein was. I was also pushing myself to my limits in the gym. I didn't get big, but then again I'm natty and haven't gotten much bigger since I started eating meat again. I looked great though, very cut, a build similar to Brad Pitt in Fight Club. I was close to the strongest I've ever been too.

I don't doubt it one bit, like I said anyone I know that has tried going vegan has had nothing but good things to say about the experience, they just couldn't sustain it.

Definitely wouldn't want to look like Brad Pitt in fight club though that's a little boys body to me, I like to have a bit of a build especially with the way things are now but to each their own of course. I have a pretty boy friend who looks like that and every time we ever do anything at all in public someone always finds a way to challenge him like he has a target on his forehead, looks good girls love him but not big enough to be a threat....perfect for captain fake tough guy to make himself feel cool messing with. It's to the point that in certain circumstances we don't even invite him out because of it, most laid back humble guy you will ever meet too he's like a walking social experiment it's almost funny if I hadn't broken knuckles defending him from groups of guys 3 times his size. I'm loyal to my friends and as much as I think fighting is for children I'll fight for them if I have to but I don't want to get into with someone everywhere I go and with him it's pretty much guaranteed, it's silly. Also has a lot to do with where we live, here everyone is captain tough guy and super alpha or at least trying to prove they are at least.


Anyway, that's going way off on a tangent. Just curious, what was a typical day of food like for you? Don't plan on going vegan or anything but I like to collect info like that and keep it tucked away, very interested.

 

[get2choppaaa]

Are you now implying certain verses in Genesis and elsewhere are not literal statements but rather idioms? And then implying that you are in fact an evolutionist (theistic evolutionists are still evolutionists) in which case I didn't interpret you wrong at all? Just questioning.

What nerve did I hit? If you're not an evolutionist then why do you respond with a personal attack? You could just clarify your confusing statements. I'm sorry that I didn't realize when you said "we didn't make it to the top of the food chain" you didn't actually mean what you said. But you have some really high standards for people if you expect them to decipher whatever it is that you say, instead of trying to be more clear yourself. What you said can't be logically inferred to mean what you're telling me now, I would have to know you didn't mean what you said. Semantics is how evolutionists fool the world, so excuse me for being precise.

And to be clear I was implying that if you do your research about evolution you have to be really "low IQ" to come out an evolutionist of any kind after, but nothing about you personally. If that pertains to you then it serves as a challenge, if not, then great. That should be easier to interpret how I meant it than interpreting your last statement how you are explaining it.

Well, before I derail this....
My comment was meant comically as in: "I didn't learn how to wipe my own ass to use a bidet because it saves trees...." Here I am making a comparison to the desire to "save the environment" just like vegans "save the animals" and the fact that you still harm the environment either way.

If it better serves an understanding, I believe God placed us at the top, as evidenced by line 1 of my comment.

My point still stands, you took a comment that was meant in jest, and implied that it was an endorsement of an ideology that is counter to the first statement of the post. I've read plenty about Darwin, I've watched Vox Day use math to debunk the prevalent models , and that while I don't have a perfect explanation for the how, I know there is no such matriculation of an eye from no eye. I frankly do not spend the time to worry about evolution, as pondering something I reject benefits my psyche nothing....

While it is my understanding that elements of Genesis are allegorical, and not literal, and based off the Jewish Tradition. But I have no idea how to know what is literal and what is allegorical, I am not a priest, and defer to what my Priest says about how much importance to place on literal or allegorical interpretations of the Old Testament, and do not pretend to have a perfect understanding of all things related to the Church, as I am an imperfect Christian. Certain things that are in scripture are referred to as part of mystery, and tat we as humans are not omniscient. For instance, trying to imply concepts of time to God is not something I am going to presume to do. Or Sampson, was he literally blinded by Delilah or figuratively? We can have a separate thread/discussion on this.

BACK To the Vegetarian concept, here are some articles for those who pursue a vegetarian diet:

Top Ten Essential Nutrients Every Vegetarian Athlete NEEDS | Poliquin Article

main.poliquingroup.com

Vegans have a Lower IQ, says Charles Poliquin

World-renowned strength coach Charles Poliquin said exactly this: Vegans have a lower IQ! And people who go vegan lower their IQs."

www.forgevalleyfitness.com

 

[yarqur]

My comment was meant comically as in: "I didn't learn how to wipe my own ass to use a bidet because it saves trees...." Here I am making a comparison to the desire to "save the environment" just like vegans "save the animals" and the fact that you still harm the environment either way.

If it better serves an understanding, I believe God placed us at the top, as evidenced by line 1 of my comment.

My point still stands, you took a comment that was meant in jest, and implied that it was an endorsement of an ideology that is counter to the first statement of the post. I've read plenty about Darwin, I've watched Vox Day use math to debunk the prevalent models , and that while I don't have a perfect explanation for the how, I know there is no such matriculation of an eye from no eye. I frankly do not spend the time to worry about evolution, as pondering something I reject benefits my psyche nothing....

It is good to 'hear' that we are basically in agreement. I don't know about your point because unfortunately theistic evolutionists are a thing even on this forum, and I couldn't have known if you are one or not since I didn't really know you at all yet. Theistic evolutionists do hold beliefs that are in contradiction with each other.

Thank you for clarifying your position to me, that's all that was necessary if anything. I don't really worry about evolution either since I already did the research over a decade ago. All the science backs YEC as does the Bible. I only worry about others.

While it is my understanding that elements of Genesis are allegorical, and not literal, and based off the Jewish Tradition. But I have no idea how to know what is literal and what is allegorical, I am not a priest, and defer to what my Priest says about how much importance to place on literal or allegorical interpretations of the Old Testament, and do not pretend to have a perfect understanding of all things related to the Church, as I am an imperfect Christian. Certain things that are in scripture are referred to as part of mystery, and tat we as humans are not omniscient. For instance, trying to imply concepts of time to God is not something I am going to presume to do. Or Sampson, was he literally blinded by Delilah or figuratively? We can have a separate thread/discussion on this.

I don't think everyone must know all the details all the time either so long as your conclusions are correct anyway. I think someone has to know that can teach others indeed, and even answer for others. Problems only come when the shepherd is a false one. I don't claim to know it all as in omniscience either, just the essentials.

Sorry for the derailing, I can continue on other threads some other time.

 

[JayR]

In General, most people should eat more Vegetables, but you still need protein.

Americans are obsessed with getting enough protein, but have you ever met anybody in your life who had a protein deficiency? Me neither.

Plants -- beans, legumes, quinoa, dark greens (spinach, broccoli, etc.), etc. -- are loaded with all the protein you need to build muscle.

This guy eats nothing but plants:

 

[FrancisK]

Americans are obsessed with getting enough protein, but have you ever met anybody in your life who had a protein deficiency? Me neither.

Plants -- beans, legumes, quinoa, dark greens (spinach, broccoli, etc.), etc. -- are loaded with all the protein you need to build muscle.

This guy eats nothing but plants:

That’s one heck of a point, better than any click bait YouTube video....

 

[Durden347]

That’s one heck of a point, better than any click bait YouTube video....

Humans have a different stomach and chemical make up.

 

[JayR]

Humans have a different stomach and chemical make up

See photo of heavily-muscled, plant-fed human in post #17.

 

[R.G.Camara]

While many tout Veganism/Vegetarianism as healthier, I think it boils down to the fact that the kind of people who make that choice are just more aware of their health/food intake overall. The same as Jews who keep strict kosher, Muslims who are strict halal, or Christians like Roosh who follow specific fasting/diets. People hyperfocusing on food choices usually make the best selections in the correct portions for the most nutrients, regardless of their overall diet's restrictions.

That said, I've known quite a few unhealthy "vegetarians" who were just basic chicks who stopped eating animals when they cried over a documentary on cows, and so they just get fat on carbs because "it's not meat". Again, the stricter on the dietary restriction you go, the healthier you will be due to hyperfocusing on what you consume.

FYI: Vegetarians/Vegans sometimes push the idea that St. Francis was a vegetarian, so Christians should be, except St. Francis (and many saints) did such diets as punishment/penance/sign of loving God. It wasn't for health or care for animals, it was because it was difficult, and therefore, a gift to God in their suffering.

 

[R.G.Camara]

I went Whole Food Plant-Based (WFPB)/No Oil/No Nuts/No Avo after a heart disease diagnosis in 2017. I've told my story in the "Why is the Manosphere Anti-Vegan" and "Anybody tried a Plant-based Diet?" threads, so I won't rehash it again here except to say that not only is such a diet sustainable, it's healthy if done right. I have not been sick one time since making the change over 3 years ago and I'm not "lethargic and weak and menopausal" by any measure.

Yes, you have to supplement B12 if you eliminate meat entirely, and yes you've got to eat a lot of plants to meet your caloric needs (especially if you work out heavy/regularly), but it's sustainable and even recommended if you have (or want to avoid) heart disease, which is the #1 killer of men in the USA.



Nonsense.

Nimai Delgado -- meat-free diet his entire life:

View attachment 28081

He's also clearly on steroids/PEDs. And we have no idea if he's actually being truthful about his plant-based diet, or if its just an image he's selling.

Anyway, no hate, but no man, no matter how genetically blessed, can get that shredded without help coming out of of a needle. That's not purely plant-based diet causing his muscles to look like a cartoon superhero.

 

[Durden347]

He's also clearly on steroids/PEDs. And we have no idea if he's actually being truthful about his plant-based diet, or if its just an image he's selling.

Anyway, no hate, but no man, no matter how genetically blessed, can get that shredded without help coming out of of a needle. That's not purely plant-based diet causing his muscles to look like a cartoon superhero.

Yep. That is a lot of these fitness models. They have to dabble with these things sometimes.

 

[get2choppaaa]

Americans are obsessed with getting enough protein, but have you ever met anybody in your life who had a protein deficiency? Me neither.

Plants -- beans, legumes, quinoa, dark greens (spinach, broccoli, etc.), etc. -- are loaded with all the protein you need to build muscle.

This guy eats nothing but plants:

He also doesn't have any of the biology of a human. You might be retarded if you think comparing the digestive system of a bovine animal to a human makes any sense.