"MGTOW''

[Blaster]

RE: biggest threat to the regime imo

Out of the PUA, MRA, and MGTOW stuff
(pick up artists, men's rights advocates, and men going their own way)

MGTOW has the appeal.
it doesn't come off as skeevy like Pick Up.
It doesn't come off as bitter as MRA often sounds.

It's men deciding that they want to live their lives on their own terms. They don't exist to be the engine for society, to build society and to be taxed by said society.

It appeals to the independent and self-sufficient nature of men, without any baggage of the other movements.

WIA

What I don't really get about mgtow is why it even exists (disclaimer: I haven't tried too hard to understand). Once I graduated from college and started supporting myself, I've pretty much done my best to live my life on my own terms. I made some dumb mistakes and also didn't take as many risks I could have, but I was independent and except where the law was involved (taxes, insurance, etc.) I just did whatever I wanted. I was productive, creative, made money, traveled, whatever.

That is, except in one area, which was women. I had social skills but very little success attracting the girls I wanted to fuck. I got lucky a couple of times (I have good looks) but eventually I realized I was (a) still flailing in the dark (b) sublimating and rationalizing subpar relationships with women I did not truly desire.

The details are a story for another time, suffice to say that with some encouragement I deliberately sought out game resources for self-improvement. That's how I found Roosh initially, and then I stuck around because I found a lot of other interesting ideas. That's how I wound up exposed to the MRA stuff, and while I think MRA's reputation for bitterness and whining is somewhat deserved and they can be as prone to denying reality as feminists, I found many quality articles and legal topics I had not considered before.

But MGTOW... I've never seen any truly interesting blog or online resource, nor would I have any reason to seek out such a group on my own. Game and MRA types always seem to be talking about MGTOW, and while the concept makes a ton of sense I don't understand its appeal as a distinct movement.

 

[cardguy]

Most MGTOW writings I come across is from men in their 50's bitching about their second failed marriage.

To me - the stories are quite entertaining. Particularly since in 99% of cases - the details are the same. It is just the names that change. So - it is quite interesting to see these patterns show up.

But yeah. You probably won't find as much useful/positive information in MGTOW as you would elsewhere since MGTOW has no underlying philosophy. It is like zen. Do what you want, and try and be happy.

So - in a sense - PUA is a part of MGTOW - but not all MGTOW are part of the PUA scene.

The PUA and MRA scene has created a useful space on the internet for men to get together, share stories and give advice.

And - later on - I guess the MGTOW scene developed for those who are interested in the above fields. And like sharing stories and information. Yet - are not so bothered about the endless pursuit of pussy. And are also pessimistic about any efforts which will help change laws which are tilted against men. Particularly since it is a 'zero sum' game in which any changes to the law will be at the expense of women. And as such will never be allowed to happen.

Still - alot of the stuff you come across in MGTOW (like the repeated warnings against marriage) can be useful in helping strengthen your 'frame' when it comes to dealing with women. Since the best way to negotiate a deal - is to be prepared to walk away...

 

[Magic Bullets]

https://dissention.wordpress.com/2012/05/18/a-type-of-mgtow-not-game-will-dominate-the-future/

 

[cardguy]

Thanks for the link. I am a big fan of that blog. Everyone should check him out. He is the only blogger I have seen who is interesting, writes well and comes from a MGTOW perspective.

 

[Lemmo]

I don't think MGTOW are just guys who reject feminism. I'd always thought it was people who "swallowed the red pill" and therefore thought most established social institutions and values had become corrupted to the point that men who sought to fulfill society's expectations were just being enslaved. Studying hard=student loans and no job. Working hard=low pay, high taxes, offshoring, limited upward mobility. Marriage=loss of assets, loss of sex, loss of child custody, financial enslavement. MGTOW attempt to avoid this by unplugging from society in some way - expatriation, celibacy, whoremongering, rejection of materialism.

I think PUAs and MRAs are different in that they just focus on dealing with women and are working within the system.

 

[Eusebius]

If that blog post linked above is the best they have, MGTOWs are just losers.

They really think that retiring to their living rooms to beat off is going to "show those bitches"? They think it's going to be a mass movement that will shape the world? At most, a male marriage strike will have some effects demographically and economically, but those with testosterone will be shaping the world the same as they always have.

At the moment, hundreds or thousands of mainly young men are starting internet businesses and moving to places like South East Asia. Most of them are what we would call Red Pill. These are energetic and focused men taking their productivity away from Western societies. Yet even this is just a small blip in current culture. MGTOWs are just the bottom 20% of the gene pool failing to reproduce, as they always have. Nobody gives a shit.

 

[cardguy]

Yeah - I guess MGTOW are losers. That is sort of the point. It is a rebellion against all the expectations of what society expects from men.

Most MGTOW don't really care about starting a mass movement. Which is why there isn't as much writing in this area as there is in the PUA and the MRM areas.

Still - despite MGTOW not really caring about starting a mass movement. It seems that some kind of movement is underway.

Here in the UK - there are now 50% more single people than in 1996 (I just looked this stat up). And in Japan there seems to be a similar movement - http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2009/06/the_herbivores_dilemma.html

To me it basically comes down to one thing. INTERNET PORN.

It is less hassle and you don't have to put up with the stress of dealing with women. I guess that makes us losers - but it is all pretty subjective. It is hard to say any one value system is better or worse than another. Particularly since you can sleep with the hottest girl you will ever fuck for about 100 bucks over in Amsterdam. I recommend it to everyone. Make a nice weekend of it.

I would love to spend my time gaming beautiful women. But it is hard to combine that (at least for me) with the life of an intellectual whilst also holding down a full-time job.

Anyway - it isn't true that nobody gives a shit. MGTOW scares women much more than PUA and MRA ever will.

MGTOW is about telling women to go fuck themselves. MRA is about trying to negotiate with women. And PUA is about giving women what they want - in the hopes of getting pussy.

The only position which removes all power from women is the MGTOW position.

 

[Acute Angle]

I think the term 'loser' is shaming language. A loser is a person who is failing by HIS OWN standards - fuck what everyone else demands of him.

 

[Blaster]

Good post, that one from Dissention, but here's where I get hung up:

Even pretty, sexually skilled and otherwise reasonable women are not much fun to be around after you have finished having sex with them.

Maybe I just have a low threshold for satisfaction but I enjoy spending time with (some) women, especially when you've made them docile and happy with a good pounding, but even that isn't necessary. I'm not a highly social person but I definitely need some of it in my life. Some guys swear by having only male friends but I've preferred to have a mix my entire life. (friend zone girls don't count of course)

 

[Magic Bullets]

MGTOW is clearly a growing trend internationally, it is well recognized in Japan and governments would be in denial in Western countries if they ignore it. It is the backlash to Feminazism shows like Sex and City are still what many women live by.

 

[Faust]

Oh it scares the living shit out of the Japanese government. Anybody who thinks that MGTOW will never have an effect on anything, look up how scared they are by their declining birthrates and shrinking tax base.

There's no movement over there. No spokesman, no headquarters, no philosophies, no blogs or papers published. Just millions of men simultaneously and independently deciding that getting a wife and working your way up the corporate ladder is less rewarding than working for 12$ an hour, staying home and whacking off to porn and anime. And there's nothing anybody can do about it. You can force a man to work in the salt mines, but you can't force him to work hard and get a promotion.

 

[Vitriol]

Oh it scares the living shit out of the Japanese government. Anybody who thinks that MGTOW will never have an effect on anything, look up how scared they are by their declining birthrates and shrinking tax base.

There's no movement over there. No spokesman, no headquarters, no philosophies, no blogs or papers published. Just millions of men simultaneously and independently deciding that getting a wife and working your way up the corporate ladder is less rewarding than working for 12$ an hour, staying home and whacking off to porn and anime. And there's nothing anybody can do about it. You can force a man to work in the salt mines, but you can't force him to work hard and get a promotion.

Much of this may be a consequence of the both the global economy and sexual marketplace becoming more complex and unforgiving. If it seems like too much effort just to have a place to stick your dick for a few minutes every now and then, many guys just won't bother. Others simply may not be talented enough to succeed in such a competitive world.

In the U.S. there are probably a lot of guys who are de facto in the situation you described just because they weren't able to get a good job or don't invest much time chasing pussy.

 

[bacon]

I really dont get the japanese thing. shit those guys are a short flight from some of the best pussy paradises in the world yet they sign on for permenant celibacy?

 

[Lemmo]

I really dont get the japanese thing. shit those guys are a short flight from some of the best pussy paradises in the world yet they sign on for permenant celibacy?

They generally aren't celibate. Prostitution is huge here. A lot of these guys are just getting a quick HJ from Chinese or Thais at the local massage parlor.

 

[Lemmo]

Oh it scares the living shit out of the Japanese government. Anybody who thinks that MGTOW will never have an effect on anything, look up how scared they are by their declining birthrates and shrinking tax base.

There's no movement over there. No spokesman, no headquarters, no philosophies, no blogs or papers published. Just millions of men simultaneously and independently deciding that getting a wife and working your way up the corporate ladder is less rewarding than working for 12$ an hour, staying home and whacking off to porn and anime. And there's nothing anybody can do about it. You can force a man to work in the salt mines, but you can't force him to work hard and get a promotion.

Yeah, like giving women the vote, you can't put the genie back in the bottle no matter how harmful to society. Once it is widely understood that the cost/benefit analysis argues against marriage and kids and there is no cultural pressure to have a family, few rational men are going to do it.

 

[Vitriol]

This is from that article cardguy posted above:

Fukasawa contends that while some grass-eating men may be gay, many are not. Nor are they metrosexuals. Rather, their behavior reflects a rejection of both the traditional Japanese definition of masculinity and what she calls the West's "commercialization" of relationships, under which men needed to be macho and purchase products to win a woman's affection. Some Western concepts, like going to dinner parties as a couple, never fit easily into Japanese culture, she says. Others never even made it into the language—the term "ladies first," for instance, is usually said in English in Japan. During Japan's bubble economy, "Japanese people had to live according to both Western standards and Japanese standards," says Fukasawa. "That trend has run its course."

Funny how Japanese men are instinctively rebelling against the dysfunctional "commercial relationships" that come from Western culture where men are expected to be financial slaves and constantly buy shit for women.

I don't understand why American men who realize there's something wrong with that kind of arrangement are such an anomaly. There must be an even higher degree of social conditioning and control going on here than most people realize.

 

[cardguy]

Of course - there are no rules or agendas in the MGTOW movement. If you get a chance to nail a hottie then go for it. MGTOW simply means that this goal is no longer the most important part of your life.

And again - the paradox is that - sometimes the less you want it. The easier it is to get.

I imagine my 'game' is pretty good since I openly tell girls I don't give a shit what they think - and for some that provokes a better reaction than the one someone else might get who has spent all night trying to make them laugh.

Indeed - a line I sometimes use when chatting to a broad is that 'I don't want to sleep with her since it would be a waste of a good jerk-off.'

It is ironic that my 'game' is much better now than it was in my blue-pill years, when I actually gave a shit about trying to pull girls. But I am too busy doing other stuff to really care. The extra utlity value of sleeping with a hot girl isn't worth (for me) the extra time and stress it takes versus hookers and porn. It is a simple cost/benefit analysis. I am constantly short of time as it is - and I just don't have the desire or the time to go chasing round bars (or foreign countries) chatting up girls.

But for those who do - then good luck to them. I think it is cool that guys are being pro-active in getting what they most want from chicks.

And on a sidenote. Whilst MGTOW may not have produced many interesting blogs or writers. It is worth remembering that throughout history most of the great art, music, science, literature, mathematics and technology was produced by guys who would today be classed as MGTOW. Just something to think about...

One last point. It is because of MGTOW that women don't like porn. They throw out bullshit about it being demeaning to women or encouraging sexual violence. But the truth is the same as it is for most workers - they don't want to be made redundant by technology.

 

[cardguy]

Here is a different way of thinking about things.

MGTOW is for red pill thinkers. Who are not necessarily PUA's or MRA's.

So - the big difference between a MGTOW and a beta male - is that the MGTOW guy has taken the red pill.

So whilst a beta male might be happy settling down with a '5' or a '6'. Most MGTOW would not.

-------------------------------------

[Apologies for all the acronyms, use of the word 'beta' and use of the words 'red pill'. It feels like I am playing world of warcraft or something.]

 

[Magic Bullets]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoSyeHptdsk

 

[solo]

Basically, feminism is one big shit test. Individually and as a collective, most women try to extract as many benefits from society (men) as possible. They want to see how much they can get away with. They won't ever stop pushing for more and more from the betas who contribute the most, while of course fucking the alphas.

Once you give them the right to vote, it's a slippery slope in my opinion.

Forum member speakeasy made a great point on another thread, which I will quote for its eloquence here:

"Here's an idea, why don't women stop nagging men and start their own damn companies and only hire their fellow women for high salaries, and then they can have all the maternity leave and equal pay that they want."

Recently I've been looking up a bit about the so called MGTOW movement. While its merits as an alternative or complement to game are debatable, I think there is one aspect which all red pill guys should consider and that is the idea that you shouldn't let women have access to your money indirectly or directly unless you are fucking them.

If you are working and paying taxes in a feminist country, you are contributing to the problem. And if you do this while being sexually frustrated in any way, I'm sorry but you're a sucker. Basically, you are paying for the economy to keep going, which it barely is anyway, while the women you desire are fucking someone else.

I don't claim to be the first one to point this out, but I think it's something more guys should consider.

Relevant: http://www.returnofkings.com/5351/mgtow-make-more-sense-than-mras