"MGTOW''

[Kingsley Davis]

as we know, MGTOW stands for Men Going Their Own Way.

Thing is, "their own way" could be anything. Could be fishing with his buddies. Could be traveling. Could be whoring. Could be porn and anime. Could be going hobo and riding the rails. Could be picking up chicks and then dropping them on their ass. Could be that "going his own way" means going to San Fran to learn BDSM and become a Dom all decked in leather training (nasty) chicks to be his slaves and beating them while they thank him for it.

What MGTOW is *not*, is a man living his life for someone else such as a wife or society at large that need worker bees to feed off of. It is a man throwing off any societal norms that he took in spite of his interests. Some MGTOWs might be happy to have a house in the suburbs and a mortgage, as long as he gets to have his boat in the garage and lives near a fishin hole. Some guys never want to be beholden in any way, to any thing, ever. It's not this or that, specifically. It is WHATEVER IN THE HELL HE WANTS AND FUCK YOU IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT

Calling them losers betrays your own insecurities. Calling them losers makes you a hater. MGTOWs aren't haters- they just don't give a shit enough to even remark or reply. They do what pleases them and serves them, and defy anyone they wish to defy.

I like MGTOWs. No one has leverage on them. How can you be down on a guy for casting off people's attempts to manipulate him?

my 2 cents.

This ^^^^
otd:

 

[Eusebius]

In theory, MGTOWs are going their own way and doing whatever they want. That's what the acronym says. How could you argue with that?

But in practice, their forums and other internet droppings are full of bitter loserdom and hate of those with active sex lives. These are the male equivalents of fat chicks going their own way by eating cupcakes for breakfast, brunch, lunch and dinner. So yeah, go your own way, but there is no need to associate yourself with that label.

 

[cardguy]

MGTOW is a bit of a shit label. Due to the connotations it has. But - as I have said before - MGTOW doesn't really care about what others think.

But on a wider point. I think MGTOW has come about as a loose grouping - because the internet has made it easier to be alone (due to porn and the entertainment/interesting shit online). And easier to hear about the fucked up things that happen to alot of the guys who go down the wife and kids route.

Also - MGTOW has come about because some guys enjoy hanging out on forums like this one. And want to point out that not all guys are shooting for the same goals. Even though - they have most of everything else in common.

Labels are useful as a shorthand. But shouldn't be taken too seriously. In the same way - most guys here would object to the simple term of PUA to describe their interests.

 

[cardguy]

Just reading through this thread - and had another thought.

Many of us laugh at people who waste money on designer clothes and designer brands. Since wasting money to try and impress people is pretty pathetic.

Well - being the lazy nihilist that I am. I feel that trying to chase 'status' and impress people doesn't just stop at expensive clothes and expensive cars.

I feel alot of people who try and do 'cool' stuff (like travelling, music festivals, sporting events, museums, art galleries, surfing, snowboarding, sailing etc) are ultimately just doing it to try and impress others. Even if there is nobody watching them.

Somehow the act alone builds up their self-esteem enough to make it worthwhile. As if they are starring as an idealised version of themselves in a movie of their lives.

Which is fine. But - it makes me laugh when 'cool' people think other people are 'uncool' for doing boring shit (in my case reading books and drinking bourbon). Since - whatever you may think of 'uncool' people - you can be sure they are doing what makes them truly happy. And with no ulterior motive.

Sorry - I'm not sure if the above makes sense to others. It is just something that occurs to me since my older brother is always tring to do stuff just for the sake of doing stuff.

And it often seems as well that people are more interested in the photos they will get for their Facebook page - than they are in the enjoyment they will get from the activity itself.

 

[Chruznic]

You have to SHOW a muthafukka you mean business, and make him hurt until he gives you what you want. In this context, that means things like exactly what MGTOW does, and the things Captain Capitalism (Aaron Clarey) says: reduce your production to just what you need to survive, withdraw your emotional support and attention from cunts, disengage from society to whatever extent you deem suitable for you, and let the whole rotten house collapse in on itself.

Does anyone have the links to the Captain Capitalism posts where he talks about this?

It seems like many men who aren't even involved in things like MGTOW, PUA, MRA, etc. Are going to end up disengaging from society because the opportunities aren't there anymore. Some of us are making a calculated effort to be part of the marriage strike or only use girls for pumping and dumping, but think about all the guys who can no longer afford mortgages or will never have steady high paying jobs like they would have a generation ago. This current economic and social model really is going cannibal on itself and mainstream sources are still living in the past, so no one outside of these movements really notices.

He wrote a book on the matter called Enjoy the decline.

 

[Valentine]

MGTOW is a useful philosophy - choosing to create your own path free from societal expectations. But as RawGod stated above, in practice these men are full of hate.

I prefer the idea of 'Red Pill' - knowing and understand the numerous societal expectations, mainstream lies and complexities of civilisation which then allows one to make their own decision of how to live their own lives.

IMO MGTOW is personified by Aaron Clarey aka 'Captain Capitalism' in his book Enjoy the Decline and of John Galt in Atlas Shrugged. The thing is, while they argue for rational self-interest and pursuing one's own goals by refusing to be another cog in society, in the long run they're handicapping themselves.

Someone who understands the influence of society and instead chooses to game The System by outsourcing the work of their internet business, banging easy 'sexually-liberated women' or other low-hanging fruit like wannabe 'sugar babies' (see Seeking Arrangement thread) and using geoarbitrage to live in a country where they can get the most bang for their buck are really the ones who both have their cake and eat it.

It seems to me that MGTOWs often 'go ghost', withdrawing from all real-life companionship and live a minimalist life with videogames, porn and other activities which give them no meaning or long-lasting happiness. You don't have to withdraw from women and work - just instead use them for your own selfish needs and don't give up by getting married, getting a boring 9-5, etc.

 

[w00t]

So female companionship = long-lasting happiness?
Uh hell no.

I have a buddy who lives in Pattaya and makes money from his internet biz. By day he plays video games by night he bangs young whores. Now THATS a kind of lifestyle I can see myself enjoying.

 

[cardguy]

This doesn't just apply to MGTOW. I think we can all relate to it. But I want to post it since it is a nice example of the script that so many of us here on the forum are trying to avoid:



I know this video has been posted before. But it is an excellent one which acts as a motivator, in terms of what to avoid in life.

 

[Dulceácido]

Women hate hookers. Not because of what they do. But because of how they go about it.

They hate them because they are too blatant and open about what their intentions are.

They much prefer the girls who can pull off the 'long con' - like the women who can find rich guys and then take half their money.

Sadly - all women are the same.

Some you pay up front with cash on the table.

Others you pay at the end in the divorce courts.

The first type are cheaper and more honest.

otd:



:agree:

 

[cardguy]

Heard this the other day.

Why is divorce so expensive?

Because it is worth it.

 

[cardguy]

A good friend of mine is getting married.

 

[BecomingMachine]

Out of the PUA, MRA, and MGTOW stuff
(pick up artists, men's rights advocates, and men going their own way)

MGTOW has the appeal.
it doesn't come off as skeevy like Pick Up.
It doesn't come off as bitter as MRA often sounds.

It's men deciding that they want to live their lives on their own terms. They don't exist to be the engine for society, to build society and to be taxed by said society.

It appeals to the independent and self-sufficient nature of men, without any baggage of the other movements.

WIA

What I don't really get about mgtow is why it even exists (disclaimer: I haven't tried too hard to understand). Once I graduated from college and started supporting myself, I've pretty much done my best to live my life on my own terms. I made some dumb mistakes and also didn't take as many risks I could have, but I was independent and except where the law was involved (taxes, insurance, etc.) I just did whatever I wanted. I was productive, creative, made money, traveled, whatever.

That is, except in one area, which was women. I had social skills but very little success attracting the girls I wanted to fuck. I got lucky a couple of times (I have good looks) but eventually I realized I was (a) still flailing in the dark (b) sublimating and rationalizing subpar relationships with women I did not truly desire.

The details are a story for another time, suffice to say that with some encouragement I deliberately sought out game resources for self-improvement. That's how I found Roosh initially, and then I stuck around because I found a lot of other interesting ideas. That's how I wound up exposed to the MRA stuff, and while I think MRA's reputation for bitterness and whining is somewhat deserved and they can be as prone to denying reality as feminists, I found many quality articles and legal topics I had not considered before.

But MGTOW... I've never seen any truly interesting blog or online resource, nor would I have any reason to seek out such a group on my own. Game and MRA types always seem to be talking about MGTOW, and while the concept makes a ton of sense I don't understand its appeal as a distinct movement.

I think MGTOW doesn't really make a statement. It's hard to hate them, but shouldn't we all be men going our own way? Game doesn't have much of a retirement plan, look at Mystery. That was never the idea. The idea is to PROVE something; MAKE something of yourself; and BE who you want to be. Eventually you will realize that Game is just as much following the dictations of female societal expectations as marriage. Just as much as both are expressions of male societal expectations.

Everybody's desperate for something. But by being desperate for it, you are causing suffering in yourself; nothing is more preventative to feeling like you've gotten what you want than the suffering. If suffering drives you to go and get what you want, then you're spiteful and it will feel hollow.

The reason I chose to reply to you, WIA, is because I creep the fuck out of your posts and wanted you to know you struck a chord with me. People convince themselves that certain relationships are so good when really your life WAS, IS, and WILL BE the same largely with or without them. That is the secret; there is no secret.

Back to writing erotica at my internship :tard:

 

[Beyond Borders]

Interesting discussion.

I always remind a girl that I have visited Amsterdam and have slept with much hotter girls than her for about $100. So - to me she is worth no more than a couple of box sets of 'Mad Men.' I tell em' the market has already set her value and the market is never wrong. I tell em' don't argue with me. Argue with Milton Friedman. And then I laugh at them again for not knowing who the fuck Milton Friedman is.

Great stuff. I might steal that.

I dunno' - if I cared enough I could probably figure out some kind of clever 'anti'-game game. I think there might be something in it. But to me it is a way of life. I will bow down to no authority. And I refuse to try and impress anyone. Especially the wimminz.

I play a lot of anti-game game, I guess you could say. I just refuse to pursue women and am fine with going home alone as I know there's always another night and another girl. If I get an attitude from them I ignore or heckle (or both), and it sometimes results in a mounting hostility, which then sometimes ends in them breaking down and throwing themselves on me (certainly not always).

I have game in the sense that I care about my appearance, am witty, and am a bit of a charmer as long as others themselves reciprocate, but other than that I don't employ much game. No routines. Little mental strategy. My game pretty much consists of not giving a shit and having zero fear of approach, at least when drinking.

Most of my successes feel really natural, or if they're unnatural it's because of an unusual amount of aggression from the woman - never me. I always thought I was just playing some kind of hard to get, but maybe anti-game is more accurate. I really just don't try all that hard.

I'd say I differ a lot from many of you "MGTOW" guys in that I haven't completely lost my faith in the opposite sex though. I just know you can never know anything about someone else and it's important to both always maintain the upper hand and that you can never trust another person 100% because you can never peek inside their head. Hell, most of us can't event trust ourselves 100% - everyone on this Earth has dark tendencies.

I read a quote on Facebook recently along the lines of how accepting the dark things others do is much easier when you understand the darkness in yourself. So true.

I feel alot of people who try and do 'cool' stuff (like travelling, music festivals, sporting events, museums, art galleries, surfing, snowboarding, sailing etc) are ultimately just doing it to try and impress others. Even if there is nobody watching them.

Somehow the act alone builds up their self-esteem enough to make it worthwhile. As if they are starring as an idealised version of themselves in a movie of their lives.

Which is fine. But - it makes me laugh when 'cool' people think other people are 'uncool' for doing boring shit (in my case reading books and drinking bourbon). Since - whatever you may think of 'uncool' people - you can be sure they are doing what makes them truly happy. And with no ulterior motive.

Sorry - I'm not sure if the above makes sense to others. It is just something that occurs to me since my older brother is always tring to do stuff just for the sake of doing stuff.

And it often seems as well that people are more interested in the photos they will get for their Facebook page - than they are in the enjoyment they will get from the activity itself.

John Steinbeck would have agreed with you. I remember in "The Log From the Sea of Cortez" he wrote about how him and Ed Ricketts weren't the type of men to travel around the world in search of adventure because life was always an adventure for them and that men who did that were boring and dull. I agree to an extent, and reading that book I was struck by how they really did find interest and intrigue no matter where they were in the world.

But to some of us there's much more to traveling the world than looking cool. Just as many people do like to snowboard or surf. I too find great pleasure in reading and drinking burboun, but I think it's an oversimplification to imply that everyone who does these more "adventurous" things is just trying to rack up some kind of points. People like to experience the world in different ways.

You may have not been implying that but it seemed worth mentioning anyhow.

I have traveled with people who worry more about their Facebook photos than actually experiencing anything though. It's pathetic. At the end they go home with nothing more than proof they've "done something" while not having done anything at all. I was stuck traveling with a family member for a couple months earlier this year and she essentially spent all her time, both days and nights, in her room sleeping. Whenever I did get her out she took about two hundred photos and then off back to her room to upload.

Me, I get down and dirty and drink beer in dirt floor shacks with people I struggle to even communicate with. Or spend the entire day driving a motorbike through the countryside, taking in the scenery. Or eat things that give me the runs. Or befriend mamasans and learn about their lives. Now that's living.

I mean, sure, you could do those things in the states, but when you're abroad, even going to use the shitter becomes an adventure.

This doesn't just apply to MGTOW. I think we can all relate to it. But I want to post it since it is a nice example of the script that so many of us here on the forum are trying to avoid:



I know this video has been posted before. But it is an excellent one which acts as a motivator, in terms of what to avoid in life.

Damn I need to go drink a beer after watching that video. Ouch.

To be fair though, the part in the beginning when sex to her was just him rolling on top of her doesn't represent my experiences at all. Women are usually plenty excited about sex and in fact I find that after a long time together they usually want it more often than I do.

I've only experienced one woman I can think of who seemed uninterested in sex and she was just an undersexed person, I guess (believe it or not she was a stripper too lol).

Point being not sure how accurate or cookie cutter all of that video is. But yeah, definitely not a life any of us want to emulate.

Out of the PUA, MRA, and MGTOW stuff
(pick up artists, men's rights advocates, and men going their own way)

MGTOW has the appeal.
it doesn't come off as skeevy like Pick Up.
It doesn't come off as bitter as MRA often sounds.

It's men deciding that they want to live their lives on their own terms. They don't exist to be the engine for society, to build society and to be taxed by said society.

It appeals to the independent and self-sufficient nature of men, without any baggage of the other movements.

WIA

All these acronyms are kind of retarded - I can't even keep up with them all. I had to go search online to find out what MGTOW even meant.

Shit, I've been "going my own way" since I've been about 17 years old, when I last had my heart really crushed by a woman and realized everything I'd been told about the need to treat them like "queens" was a lie.

I don't need a label to live life by my own rules. In fact, identifying too much with any label strikes me as dangerously close to letting a new group dictate how you act and think.

Men do need to belong sometimes, so I guess that's cool in a way, but such a move can get out of control if you lose focus of just doing your own thing and being cool with that. Belonging is best found among well-chosen friends not in some kind of internet movement. There's definitely potential for real world friendships with guys met on this forum though.

Check out all the old school writers like Jack Keroac, Steinbeck, Hunter S. Thompson, Bukowski, and Hemingway. I think these are good examples of intellectual men who lived life on their own terms and didn't pause much for what others thought. No apologies in their veins. No acronyms either.

Most fell to their addictions, but, eh, it is what it is. I think that was their choice as well.

 

[cardguy]

Wow - great post, Beyond Borders!

Also I haven't heard of that Steinbeck book - so I will definitely check it out.

Yeah - you make alot of interesting points. A very thoughtful take on things.

I haven't slept in 36 hours - so I will keep it brief.

About travel in general. Maybe I am overthinking it - it is just that alot of people I know are suddenly fascinated by Machu Picchu, The Killing Fields, Auschwitz, The Colosseum or Ayers Rock. Just because they happen to be on the itinerary of their holiday/travel plans. Whereas I think it is more intellectually honest to only search something out if you are genuinely interested in it. But perhaps I am just being an intellectual snob.

Still - the classic example is The Mona Lisa - where 99% of the visitors only go because they feel they 'have' to do it. Even though they have no genuine interest in art or that particular painting.

As for having fun. I would rather be in the most boring place in the world with a fun and interesting person. Than be in the most exotic place in the world with a boring person. And the problem with alot of travelling (and I have done a bit) is that you get boring people who think travelling to fun exciting places is the same as being a fun and exciting person. And that contrast is a little depressing. But again - I am probably just being a snob, I guess.

I always feel the most fun is when it is unplanned and unexpected. As such - I treasure the wild nights in unexpected and mundane places. As opposed to travelling thousands of miles for the sole intention of going wild.

Of course there is nothing wrong with doing both. But - I am always trying to challenge the images that are fed to us by media that if your life doesn't resemble a beer commercial then you must be doing something wrong.

 

[Beyond Borders]

Wow - great post, Beyond Borders!

Also I haven't heard of that Steinbeck book - so I will definitely check it out.

Great book. It's about a couple marine biologists sailing the sea of cortez to document the wildlife. Sounds boring but it's a fascinating read as Steinbeck had such a unique take on life and the world around him. The quote mentioned above was just mentioned before the trip to explain his take on travel; a good deal of the beginning focuses on the escapades him and his buddies found in their neighborhood down on Cannery Row in Monterey, CA.

About travel in general. Maybe I am overthinking it - it is just that alot of people I know are suddenly fascinated by Machu Picchu, The Killing Fields, Auschwitz, The Colosseum or Ayers Rock. Just because they happen to be on the itinerary of their holiday/travel plans. Whereas I think it is more intellectually honest to only search something out if you are genuinely interested in it. But perhaps I am just being an intellectual snob.

Still - the classic example is The Mona Lisa - where 99% of the visitors only go because they feel they 'have' to do it. Even though they have no genuine interest in art or that particular painting.

As for having fun. I would rather be in the most boring place in the world with a fun and interesting person. Than be in the most exotic place in the world with a boring person. And the problem with alot of travelling (and I have done a bit) is that you get boring people who think travelling to fun exciting places is the same as being a fun and exciting person. And that contrast is a little depressing. But again - I am probably just being a snob, I guess.

I always feel the most fun is when it is unplanned and unexpected. As such - I treasure the wild nights in unexpected and mundane places. As opposed to travelling thousands of miles for the sole intention of going wild.

Of course there is nothing wrong with doing both. But - I am always trying to challenge the images that are fed to us by media that if your life doesn't resemble a beer commercial then you must be doing something wrong.

I definitely hear you on a lot of that travel stuff. There are plenty of us on the open road who think that whole approach to travel is pretty silly. The whirlwind travelers are the worst - people who think they can see a city or understand a culture in a matter of three days. I personally feel a month should be a minimum and a year or more if you want to even glimpse what the hell is around you.

That said, my life ends up crazy and exciting no matter where I go. Last time I went home I went to see the family member I mentioned before at university and she was all blown away by all these adventures I was having abroad, as if she could do the same if she booked a plane ticket. But she acts like a grandma in her twenties; it's hopeless for her.

Within a week of staying with her I had a series of crazy adventures right there in her college town that just left her jaw hanging open. As an example, one night I got stranded in town without a ride and instead of walking home went to this bar across the street and ended up crashing a Punjabi rap cd release party, of all fucking things. Next thing you know I'm dancing some wild Punjabi dance mid-center on stage with all these guys wearing turbans. Only white guy in the whole joint. You should have seen the look on her face when I told her the story.

I tried to explain to her that you just have to put yourself out there and walk into uncomfortable situations to see what will happen. So when she came abroad with me what did she do? Went out one night a week, if even, and ate Western food or common tourist dishes in the most well-traveled parts of town. Nagged at me to take her to all the tourist spots so she could wear out the button on her camera. Not only did she want to be boring but insisted I be boring with her and share every meal. After she complained about me ditching her every night, I even tried to teach her how to ride a motorbike, but she never brought herself to it.

It was sad. I really didn't even see the point as she could have learned more about Southeast Asia out of a book.

Now she's moved to another country to teach English, and that's cool - she even goes out a lot more now. But when I see her pictures it's just her and other English teachers for the most part. :huh:

What I usually do is point my motorbike in a random direction and drive until I find something worth finding. Look for a place where I am as out of place as possible and walk right into the center of it to sit down and order a beer or a plate of food. I spend far more time with locals in the places I go than I ever do with foreigners and have made wierd new friends that give me a lot of insight into myself, the world, and life in general.

In a way a miss out on a lot of interesting conversations I could have with intelligent people back in the states in my own language. But I just thrive on this shit so I shrug my shoulders and take a good conversation when I can find it.

I even like a lot of the big attractions sometimes - they got big for a reason and I find the history and background fascinating - but I kind of take it in on my own terms while visiting these places and have to bury myself among the locals as soon as I get out of there because the whole charade that comes with those big attractions just becomes nauseating fast.

I haven't just traveled. It feels like I've lived a few lifetimes in one already. In my own opinion, exposing yourself to exotic experiences really stretches time. It's like when you were a kid and the afternoons seemed to stretch for an eternity. For most people that goes away as you grow older and everything goes vanilla. But I think if you just keep hammering your brain with surreal experience, you maintain a lot of that stretched time dimension late into life.

You can do that at home if you're always actively seeking out new experiences, and I certainly admire men who know how to turn any setting or experience into a good time; this is just how I personally like to do it.

 

[rearman]

In theory, MGTOWs are going their own way and doing whatever they want. That's what the acronym says. How could you argue with that?

But in practice, their forums and other internet droppings are full of bitter loserdom and hate of those with active sex lives.

^^^ This.

There is a lot of resentment on MGTOW forums for guys who get laid, though they won't come right out and say it. If they don't chase players away with their never-ending stream of bitterness, they eventually find a reason to ban you. Those forums are hive-mind circle jerks.

 

[Aliblahba]

I had no idea what MGTOW was. It sounded like a military acronym. Like this:




[attachment=13415]


I turned a friend of mine onto the forum, and he started branching out reading other sites. The other night he mentioned MGTOW among others. I skimmed those forums and agree with assman, it's real negative. I don't see how any good can come out of that. The first thing that will break a man down in war is a negative/pessimistic outlook, and leads to a path of destruction. Staying positive allows men to identify and change the world around them.

The premise is for men to do whatever they want, but isn't that what feminist preaches? Do what you want, whenever, follow your heart, fuck everyone else. If so, how's that helping men succeed? I might be missing something though. I'm here to learn like everyone else.

 

[bacon]

@ALIBLAHBA
This thread is probably the only thing MGTOW related worth reading.

Just send your friend this way. Like you said those other websites MGTOW related make it hard too feel anything but depressed when reading 90% of the posts on those forums.

 

[iknowexactly]

This is too harsh. When you get to a certain age, attractive women stop expressing sexual interest.

So if you are not interested in indifferent women, you just do whatever you want and ignore them unless they are, for instance, a real estate agent and you are buying a house.

I see it as just going toward your own goals which may not include bothering with the unnattractive women that happen to be available to you in a certain time and place.

I could be in the Philippines right now banging chicks, but I'd rather be playing with the band I have in USA. That's my priority right now.

 

[Bill]

MGTOW who had to learn it the hard wayand rather late may sound little depressed as they invested their whole energy in women and got burned and struggle to find their way.

But guys who naturally GTOW sound probably much more energetic as they invested their whole energy in themself.