"MGTOW''

[Vitriol]

For introverted people, social interaction can be exhausting and not enjoyable except in the case of intellectual equals. Because women are generally less intellectually curious, introverts gain most of their pleasure with women in a purely physical way. In past societies, these men would have seen marriage and raising a family as a fulfilling lifetime goal, but due to their inability to compete with the sexual novelty of extroverts and the inability for them to enforce the contract of marriage at the hand of the state, this is no longer a viable option. I think this is the reason a lot of MGTOW types seem angry. A part of their biological life trajectory is missing. For introverts, I think the major aspects of relationships are the physical aspect as well as having a deep sense of meaning. It is extremely difficult and very risky legally to secure the latter in todays society. This instinct has been exploited by many women in todays society, and a lot of MGTOW philosophy should be seen as a warning to others with similar biological inclinations.

I think its easy to say "Well, they need to work on improving themselves to get women instead of being cynical and depressed." Sounds good, but I dont think this would benefit introverts in practice. The process of pushing themselves into social situations to manipulate others is extremely draining for introverts, and the reward for doing so doesnt provide any lasting fulfillment. Instead, intellectual pursuits and hobbies tend to be more fulfilling.

I missed out on this post the first time, but I think it's very insightful and explains my personal situation very well. I don't give a flying fuck about getting girls to impress other dudes, and most girls will start to drive me nuts as soon as I have a bit of a history with them and see how retarded they act. This is probably why I keep advising other guys on the forum they're not going to get anything out of the more serious commitments with women other than sex.

If you don't enjoy running your mouth constantly and you're above a certain IQ threshold, you're probably not going to get any enjoyment out of women other than fucking them. Sad, but true.

 

[WD-40]

Another thing is that as I slowly but steadily advance further up the greasy pole of my corporate career, my workload has become increasingly demanding and I appreciate the value of my free time much more than I did in my misspent 20s.

These days I want to make my personal time count, and either spend it with activities which are genuinely relaxing and recreational, or with activities which are conducive to my self-improvement and which redound to my lasting, long-term benefit. So while I am generally interested in woman, I can't rationally see how to make skirt-chasing work for me in any of those ways.

 

[cardguy]

There is a lovely MGTOW message in this story:

 

[TonySandos]

I think game should never be the height of measuring success and happiness. You command more power from women when you're genuinely less affected by them. Practice yields benefits, but the right mind frame and self satisfaction provides happiness that last with an edge.

You can land the worlds hottest woman, but you'll never mentally master the game of life until you stop seeing them as the fairer sex, simply the one that you're attracted to. If women actually held dominance in appearance, then the ugliest woman would still be more attractive than the most handsome man(we would all lack value).

 

[N°6]

This is from that article cardguy posted above:

Fukasawa contends that while some grass-eating men may be gay, many are not. Nor are they metrosexuals. Rather, their behavior reflects a rejection of both the traditional Japanese definition of masculinity and what she calls the West's "commercialization" of relationships, under which men needed to be macho and purchase products to win a woman's affection. Some Western concepts, like going to dinner parties as a couple, never fit easily into Japanese culture, she says. Others never even made it into the language—the term "ladies first," for instance, is usually said in English in Japan. During Japan's bubble economy, "Japanese people had to live according to both Western standards and Japanese standards," says Fukasawa. "That trend has run its course."

Funny how Japanese men are instinctively rebelling against the dysfunctional "commercial relationships" that come from Western culture where men are expected to be financial slaves and constantly buy shit for women.

I don't understand why American men who realize there's something wrong with that kind of arrangement are such an anomaly. There must be an even higher degree of social conditioning and control going on here than most people realize.

Further to the status women have traditionally enjoyed in the West, American women seem to enjoy further privilege.

I think this is because of the US' frontier history. The frontiers attracted adventurers, explorers and of course vagabonds. This of course attracted men from the East.

The resultant gender imbalance attracted two types of woman. The landowner's wife who was often treated like a European aristocrat by her rich husband and the single men. The second is the saloon bar woman, whose market value was regulated by the madam.

Meanwhile as Chinese coolies crossed the Pacific to work the railroads, the sold their wives' sexual wares to help make things meet.

 

[Wutang]

Bumping this thread cause I just came across an article that featured a 18 year old guy who identifies as a MGTOW:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/david-sherratt-18-mens-rights-10480411

The kid talks about being paranoid of being falsely accused of rape. He also states:

“I’m not particularly social and do not go out often,” David said.

“Most of my friends are on line. I just speak to them in my room where it is safe and nothing can happen.”

I have to admit while I find aspects of the MGTOW ideology to be attractive but the actual end result of it seems to produce guys like the one in this article: passive and cut off from their masculinity.

 

[262]

I was going to say that MGTOW might be good for guys with unusually bad disadvantages - such as having no arms or legs - but then I remembered reading about such a guy having a wife and kids.

In some ways, overcoming disadvantages is what life's all about. Nobody's surprised when the model guy gets a plain Jane - in fact, he's punching below his weight. But when no-arms no-legs guy does it, it's inspiring.

Granted, no-arms no-legs guy probably went about it in a smart way. Most likely, he developed verbal social skills strong enough to overcome his lack of arms and legs. Pretty sure he didn't bother with club game.

 

[GlobalMan]

Bumping this thread cause I just came across an article that featured a 18 year old guy who identifies as a MGTOW:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/david-sherratt-18-mens-rights-10480411

The kid talks about being paranoid of being falsely accused of rape. He also states:

“I’m not particularly social and do not go out often,” David said.

“Most of my friends are on line. I just speak to them in my room where it is safe and nothing can happen.”

I have to admit while I find aspects of the MGTOW ideology to be attractive but the actual end result of it seems to produce guys like the one in this article: passive and cut off from their masculinity.

MGTOW at this point is basically synonymous with being incel. It's men who don't want to fail, so they decline to participate in life.

 

[Dalaran1991]

I personally have no bad experience with MGTOW. One of my college friend is a great guy. Made Captain in the army, got deployed in Afgha, lost a whole of his squad in mortar ambush. He has just become the stoic type of men that doesn't blink in the line of fire, but due to that he can't figure his way out with women and couldn't be bothered.

Spent most of his time training, eating right and studying history. Women doesn't feature in his life, but he has been a great asset to other men.

Frankly in USA not sure game is worth it. Too much effort for little result unless you have really good logistics and are in a city with lots of talent. My mentor in Boston has 10x my game but pulls the same quality as I do here in Paris, simply due to the fact that there are fewer hot girls there.

Most men will not make it far enough in game, so if they choose to divert their energy elsewhere more productive, why not?

I guess just like with every movement, there's the cream of the crop with MGTOW too. If the movement results in men channeling their sexual frustration into productivity and helping others, I see no harm in that. Whether or not the men in question are happy I won't pretend to know.

 

[RexImperator]

Frankly in USA not sure game is worth it. Too much effort for little result unless you have really good logistics and are in a city with lots of talent. My mentor in Boston has 10x my game but pulls the same quality as I do here in Paris, simply due to the fact that there are fewer hot girls there.

Most men will not make it far enough in game, so if they choose to divert their energy elsewhere more productive, why not?

I've been meaning to make a post along the lines that I think some here are being too hard on MGTOW. The fact have to face eventually is that as you get older there are diminishing returns.

 

[Cr33pin]

Which one of you guys is this?

 

[Marmite]

Which one of you guys is this?

Oh the irony.

 

[Gotzinho]

If you are a MGTOW and are constantly improving yourself and growing as a person then I think its a good ideology to follow, but if you are the same person as you were 5 or 10 years ago, then its time to re-evaluate your thoughts and views.
Women should not be your top most priority in life and neither should they be lacking from your life. They are only a complement to the high value person you already are.

 

[The Black Knight]

MGTOW = A man who has checked out from chasing women in his local dating environment.

In the US, I'm borderline MGTOW now. Not completely but 90% the way there.

Based on Roosh's recent Personal Q+A video, I believe he is too. He said something along the lines of: I don't have sex in America anymore unless I super filter chicks AND cover my ass every way possible with cameras, evidence recording, etc. It's simply too risky.

For me, that's what it's all about now: cost and risk.

The cultural and legal environment in the US is beyond absurd. I've written about before how I have had to engage in Defensive Dating constantly for some basic peace of mind in the past.

Lately however, I just rather not bother with women at all unless I'm dealing with a true top 5--10% type of girl. I'm talking the type of girl that I could at least live with to some degree if I accidentally knocked her up: Feminine, can cook, a good person, very attractive, mid-20's or younger. In America though, these women are very rare.

In the past year, I've turned down more and more easy bangs because the risk was simply too high in my mind. I even walked out on a bitch at 6am who wanted to bang because the thought of knocking her up and how it would negatively affect my life was both terrifying and repulsive; to lose agency over myself and get financially raped by her and the courts for 20 years. For what? A goddamn nut with a decent looking slut? Fuck that.

That or I rather stick to relative super-low risk for accident kids chicks: 40+ liberal moms who already got some suckers money and the thought of having another kid triggers them since they are so close to having their freedom again. But then, I'm having to bang old pussy and I'm in my late 20's/early 30's. That's all kinds of wrong and I can't help but feel I'm wasting my time and should be focusing on young 20-something girls.

The risks in America:

Bang a bitch?

Better not give her a reason to get pissed at you or have fun with your false accusation. I will intentionally beta backslide on certain chicks (one's with the slightest hint of vindictive attitudes in particular) just to mitigate blowback.

Knock a bitch up?

She can do an abortion extortion against you OR just keep the kid and use you as a welfare plan for 20 years. In many states, child support has no capped limits.

Today, I actively avoid certain states for banging/living purposes because of how screwed up their child support laws are. Even if you stick to reasonable states that have low capped child support like Texas and Nevada, you pretty much can never leave that state unless you want to risk that the woman will go "forum-shopping" (i.e. moving to a state where she rape you on child support).

Marry one?

Only worth it to lock down a chick from possibly forum-shopping and even then, it's not a necessity; more of an added layer or protection if anything. Given the additional cost (potential alimony, massive unfair property division, etc), it's probably not worth it even with a solid pre/post-nup.

And all of this risk for what?

To battle uphill against a bunch of white knight autistic desperate men, devoting significant time and energy, to maybe get some pussy from a 6 who barely has any feminine charm, can't cook, thinks having kids at 35 is perfectly fine, isn't generally very pleasant to be around, and world market wise, is crap across the board compared to a non-American women? No thanks. I'm taking my ball and going the fuck home.

Honestly, if given all the aforementioned: I almost question someone's mental health if they are not borderline MGTOW in the US by this point.

 

[Kid Twist]

Who was it that said it best? Make money in the 1st and fukk in the 3rd? Genius.

 

[Easy_C]

I will admit to being the same way in most cases. Now that I am reacclimating to American social scenes I can't help but to be extremely unimpressed with the majority of American women.

Best advice I can give is to watch how they are when they drink. It doesn't take much for the real woman to come out in most cases and all of our native US women turned into obnoxious, frumpy messes. Noticeably the only one who remained pleasant and attractive was the Vietnamese girl, who also happened to be in noticeably better shape....and tattoo free. I also fully support the classic ROK article describing the signs of a slut.

One reason I pray nothing ever happens to my wife(American, but from a large and very traditional family) is that the thought of going back to regular American women after being with her is enough to make me throw up in my mouth a little bit.

Not that good ones don't exist. They are just very hard to find because they know how much 21st century America accepts their values and have retreated into their own enclaves......so look in all the places you would expect people with that attitude to congregate. Examples include book clubs, Orhodox dating sites and churches, pro-life groups, and the like.

 

[Repo]

@Black Knight

Why don't you just get a vasectomy or wear a condom if you are that afraid of knocking a chick up? To me it seems your position is an overreaction.

 

[The Black Knight]

@Black Knight

Why don't you just get a vasectomy or wear a condom if you are that afraid of knocking a chick up? To me it seems your position is an overreaction.

Vasectomy?

I should have to sterilize myself due to fucked up child support laws? That's ridiculous. There is also issues with failed vasectomies and an alarming incident rate with post-operative permanent pain. Also, kids are still on the table for me. So, that's a no-go.

Condoms?

Not bullet proof, feels way less pleasurable AND if you are banging a chick steady, gets really old pretty quick.

My position and perspective values maintaining my bank account, freedom, and autonomy for two decades over risking all of the aforementioned to just get a nut in one evening. An unwanted kid is an enormous burden and affects any man's life in tremendous ways. Professional, socially, and financially. It can be overcome no doubt but it's still a major hurdle to deal with.

For example:

1. Maybe you meet that 9+ and she was ready to settle down with you but oh, you have a kid? She's not interested now. We don't like single moms; why would a high-value women want to deal with a single dad all things being equal?

2. Want to take a job in another state? Sorry, court says mom doesn't have to work with you regarding visitation.

3. You or mom lives in uncapped child support state? Got a new job that pays 50k more? Mom is gonna get her unfair cut.

If I'm gonna get my nut, it's going to be with the lowest risk/highest value chick possible to mitigate any possible fallout. I have seen first hand countless times guys have an accident baby with a vindictive cunt; it's not pretty. Not in the slightest. Even if she's not vindictive today, she can flip the next day and likely will when the system incentivizes her to engage in unfair behavior.

In other parts of the world, you can just tell the girl to go fuck herself if she's being unreasonable. In the majority of the western world, she can use the legal system to put your life and balls in a vice grip. Only the most altruistic and level-headed of women (a very small minority) will not be tempted to abuse the hell out of the system to fuck you over. When a woman has checked out, they generally give zero fucks about you and have no concept of fair play. Until the system is changed (child support laws becoming more reasonable) and/or a bullet-proof way to prevent pregnancy comes about (maybe Vasalgal), every men in America/most of the western world is taking a big gamble with their life when they jizz around a chick. That's not hyperbole; that's reality.

So, I would not call my point of view an overreaction. I'm thinking with my big head above all else, recognizing the reality on the ground, and playing first and foremost for the long-game. But to each and their own.

 

[Phoenix]

^ Just remember though, you're going to die one day anyway. When you do, all that will be left of you is your progeny. Worth keeping that in perspective.

 

[Easy_C]

If I'm gonna get my nut, it's going to be with the lowest risk/highest value chick possible to mitigate any possible fallout. I have seen first hand countless times guys have an accident baby with a vindictive cunt; it's not pretty. Not in the slightest. Even if she's not vindictive today, she can flip the next day and likely will when the system incentivizes her to engage in unfair behavior.

In other parts of the world, you can just tell the girl to go fuck herself if she's being unreasonable. In the majority of the western world, she can use the legal system to put your life and balls in a vice grip. Only the most altruistic and level-headed of women (a very small minority) will not be tempted to abuse the hell out of the system to fuck you over. When a woman has checked out, they generally give zero fucks about you and have no concept of fair play. Until the system is changed (child support laws becoming more reasonable) and/or a bullet-proof way to prevent pregnancy comes about (maybe Vasalgal), every men in America/most of the western world is taking a big gamble with their life when they jizz around a chick. That's not hyperbole; that's reality.

So, I would not call my point of view an overreaction. I'm thinking with my big head above all else, recognizing the reality on the ground, and playing first and foremost for the long-game. But to each and their own

Being selective who you sleep with isn't MGTOW. It's called having standards and being smart.

The only way to react I believe is to work around the fringes of the system to find women who aren't completely integrated into the main system.


Besides which giving up on women in favor of porn isn't really MGTOW. If I had been hearing the phrase for the first time I would be picturing something like this:

Nobody identifying as a "MGTOW" has jack shit on guys like that. While their "going their own way" is usually limited to giving up on trying to get laid, guys like this one truly have done so and have checked out of the system entirely.