Military equipment & technology used in the war

dicknixon72

Pelican
The 700 Million dollar B-21 stealth bomber has been revealed, but is a long way from being operational. Designed to penetrate Russian/Chinese airspace, but probably will not get past the next-generation Russian S500 and equivalent Chinese system. With the move to stand-off tactics, this aircraft will be obsolete before entering service. A huge white elephant to fleece US taxpayers.




1) if a penetrating strategic bomber is such a dead end, why are Russia and China both pursuing such a platform?

2) B-21 serves a dual purpose, both as a high altitude deep penetration bomber as well as a loitering stealthy battlefield AWACS, a communication node to disseminate and distribute information about the battle scape to other platforms operating in theater. This airframe incorporates a lot of concepts from the 1980s era tacit blue program of a battlefield surveillance and communication aircraft that operates unbeknownst to enemy forces 100 miles into the front lines relaying information back to allied forces.

Of our three major remaining defense contractors, I feel Northrop Grumman has their crap together the most of all. Boeing has experienced a lot of rot from within after the McDonald Douglas acquisition while Lockheed Martin throws its weight around and wows everybody with initial performances and disappoints over the long term.

Northrop on the other hand has always dealt with a lot of heady, high concepts over the years and does it more quietly than LM.

Just my Monday morning quarterbacking
 

Ember

Hummingbird
Other Christian
Gold Member
if a penetrating strategic bomber is such a dead end, why are Russia and China both pursuing such a platform?
It is a dead for the West only. Russia, and possibly China too if Russia has shared or licensed their tech, have superior anti-aircraft systems. A Russian or Chinese stealth bomber entering Western airspace would not face the same threat level as that posed by the S-400 and S-500 AA systems.

Russia is spending nearly all its military budget on far cheaper and more plentiful weapon delivery systems.
 

dicknixon72

Pelican
It is a dead for the West only. Russia, and possibly China too if Russia has shared or licensed their tech, have superior anti-aircraft systems. A Russian or Chinese stealth bomber entering Western airspace would not face the same threat level as that posed by the S-400 and S-500 AA systems.

Russia is spending nearly all its military budget on far cheaper and more plentiful weapon delivery systems.

The Russian PAK-DA also has the issue of not existing nor being reasonably expected to be fielded in meaningful numbers. They can't even produce SU-57s at scale.

The Xian H-20 would be a legitimate adversary. You also put a lot of faith in AA systems that certainly can be defeated/spoofed/evaded.
 

Ember

Hummingbird
Other Christian
Gold Member
The Russian PAK-DA also has the issue of not existing nor being reasonably expected to be fielded in meaningful numbers. They can't even produce SU-57s at scale.
The point is the scale of wasted money on stealth bombers. The Russians will be spending a tiny fraction of what the Americans are. And their aircraft face much better chances of evading detection and destruction thanks to inferior Western AA systems.
 

CaliforniaBased

Woodpecker
Catholic
It seems to me that Russia's modern and soviet warplanes are somewhat useless against the late 80s air defense systems Ukraine has. Neither side has made significant use of combat aircraft behind enemy lines.

If I recall a Vietnam era SAM system took out the American stealth bomber in Yugoslavia; I wonder how the F22 would fair against the s400.
 

dicknixon72

Pelican
It seems to me that Russia's modern and soviet warplanes are somewhat useless against the late 80s air defense systems Ukraine has. Neither side has made significant use of combat aircraft behind enemy lines.

If I recall a Vietnam era SAM system took out the American stealth bomber in Yugoslavia; I wonder how the F22 would fair against the s400.
The oft-quoted story of the F-117 shoot down was a result of Serb ingenuity using obsolete equipment and American complacency flying racetrack flights over the same course over and over again more than any inherent vulnerability or inferiority in stealth
 

Yeagerist

Kingfisher
Orthodox Catechumen
The 700 Million dollar B-21 stealth bomber has been revealed, but is a long way from being operational. Designed to penetrate Russian/Chinese airspace, but probably will not get past the next-generation Russian S500 and equivalent Chinese system. With the move to stand-off tactics, this aircraft will be obsolete before entering service. A huge white elephant to fleece US taxpayers.
This is illustrative of the continuing US mentality that getting the most sophisticated tech for its own sake will still ensure US dominance. This obsession with more and more strategic bombers and drones reflects the present doctrine of carpet bombing cities into smithereens, which had only worked with the likes of Iraq and Afghanistan that have no air superiority whatsoever. And which will prove to be a disservice to the US in the event of a hot war with its adversaries (assuming that the ongoing Ukrainian War is considered a proxy war against Russia). But even in the case of Afghanistan, we see clearly how America eventually lost to a non-state actor having nothing more than small arms and IEDs and making do with asymmetric warfare.

On another angle, Russia doesn't see any incentive to develop the latest-gen stealth bomber (even if otherwise they would have the resources and know-how) because their doctrine consists of pulverizing the enemy with tactical air and artillery support, preserving the infrastructure of occupied territory, and grinding down the enemy in a war of attrition from entrenched positions. All of which are working wonders for them in the Donbass and at the same time resulting in a net financial gain in the long run. And as I said before, the Ukrainian War is proof that infantry + armor support + artillery will remain the most important element in combat for the foreseeable future.

It`s because South Korea is the only NATO-aligned country that has maintained its industrial/production prowess, capable of churning out quality products at high volumes and relatively lower costs.
I'm not questioning South Korea's industrial capacity (I'm rather impressed with this development), but rather their geopolitical motivations. They're trying so hard to punch above their weight class as a middle power country that it might backfire on them and result in bringing down China and Russia's combined wrath upon themselves. What many outsiders don't know is that China had sanctioned South Korea in 2017 over the possible installation of US-made THAAD missile defense system (similar in appearance to HIMARS) and it had hurt the ROK economy. South Korea is making a risk meddling in Eastern European affairs trying to further their own interests.
 

CaliforniaBased

Woodpecker
Catholic
This is illustrative of the continuing US mentality that getting the most sophisticated tech for its own sake will still ensure US dominance. This obsession with more and more strategic bombers and drones reflects the present doctrine of carpet bombing cities into smithereens, which had only worked with the likes of Iraq and Afghanistan that have no air superiority whatsoever. And which will prove to be a disservice to the US in the event of a hot war with its adversaries (assuming that the ongoing Ukrainian War is considered a proxy war against Russia). But even in the case of Afghanistan, we see clearly how America eventually lost to a non-state actor having nothing more than small arms and IEDs and making do with asymmetric warfare.

On another angle, Russia doesn't see any incentive to develop the latest-gen stealth bomber (even if otherwise they would have the resources and know-how) because their doctrine consists of pulverizing the enemy with tactical air and artillery support, preserving the infrastructure of occupied territory, and grinding down the enemy in a war of attrition from entrenched positions. All of which are working wonders for them in the Donbass and at the same time resulting in a net financial gain in the long run. And as I said before, the Ukrainian War is proof that infantry + armor support + artillery will remain the most important element in combat for the foreseeable future.


I'm not questioning South Korea's industrial capacity (I'm rather impressed with this development), but rather their geopolitical motivations. They're trying so hard to punch above their weight class as a middle power country that it might backfire on them and result in bringing down China and Russia's combined wrath upon themselves. What many outsiders don't know is that China had sanctioned South Korea in 2017 over the possible installation of US-made THAAD missile defense system (similar in appearance to HIMARS) and it had hurt the ROK economy. South Korea is making a risk meddling in Eastern European affairs trying to further their own interests.
South Korea has for the most part had amicable relations with Russia - once again, as is the case with Israel, Russia has leverage with South Korea, as they could offer modern armaments for sale to North Korea - or worse - the designs for North Korea to produce Russian arms at a cheaper cost.

Russia can itself employee the American strategy of bombing out a nation with limited air defenses (it possesses large quantities of unsophisticated bombers).

Also, it is inaccurate to say Russia has a strategy of preserving the infrastructure - early on in the war, Melitopol, Kherson, and some other places may have been taken undamaged, but look at Mariupol and Severdonetsk.

The problem with the American war industry is that the military manufacturers have too much power and are bent on making expensive sales as opposed to practicality. I know socialism is not big on this forum, but Russia's state owned armaments industry is quite efficient at producing cheap, durable, and useful equipment. Also, Russian and Chinese engineers make at most half of what Americans make, so obviously it is cheaper for them to produce arms. The Russian goverment gets a very good cost per value out of it's arms industry. The majority of Russia's equipment issues have been with poor maintnance and corruption in the millitary, but their equipment is known to be very good for the price.

In this case the free market arms industry is not as efficient as a state command system, because the seller has control of the buyer (through "legal corruotion" - lobbying) - blinding the buyer (USA government) from making the best choices.

Better to the point - the US millitary bought helicopters from the Russians to give to the now deposed Afghan government rather than provide an American made offering.
 

Mr Freedom

Woodpecker
Orthodox Inquirer
The oft-quoted story of the F-117 shoot down was a result of Serb ingenuity using obsolete equipment and American complacency flying racetrack flights over the same course over and over again more than any inherent vulnerability or inferiority in stealth

Serbs took out the F-117 because they required EA 6 prowlers yo jam & destroy enemy radars. Without them the F-117 was vulnruble & on that day the prowlers were grounded.

Early gen stealth technology could be detected by changing radar frequency.
 

Samseau

Peacock
Orthodox
Gold Member
I think aircraft may become obsolete in the age of drone warfare. What advantage does aircraft have over artillery with real-time drone spotters?

Arty + drones is a fraction of the cost of aircraft, and far less vulernable too. Aircraft had an advantage over artillery because is was far more accurate, but in the age of drones it does not seem like aircraft has much of a use anymore.
 

Mr Freedom

Woodpecker
Orthodox Inquirer
Aircraft will only become obselete once they can make drones that fly as fast as fighter jets & carry a payload of lets say a B-52 or C5. Until then Aircraft will still remain.

Although risky technically speaking the US, Russia or China could launch a massive fighter jet attack against enemy airfields ala Israel in the six day war to gain total air supremacy.

Fighters May make up 30-50% of the overall strike package in such an operation instead of 100% in 1967 but the theoretic danger that fighters possess are still useful in this day & age.
 

DanielH

Hummingbird
Moderator
Orthodox
The B-21 wont be used to fly sorties deep into enemy territory in peer to peer warfare.

Instead they will be used to launch long range ALCM's, glide bpmbs & be a data link or AWACS with other fighters & unmanned drones.

Almost like an F-35 with bigger payload & less manouverability
Exactly.

So what exactly is the point? The same function could be accomplished in a FAR cheaper platform. This doesn't even need to be a manned vehicle.
 

Thomas More

Crow
Protestant
1) if a penetrating strategic bomber is such a dead end, why are Russia and China both pursuing such a platform?

2) B-21 serves a dual purpose, both as a high altitude deep penetration bomber as well as a loitering stealthy battlefield AWACS, a communication node to disseminate and distribute information about the battle scape to other platforms operating in theater. This airframe incorporates a lot of concepts from the 1980s era tacit blue program of a battlefield surveillance and communication aircraft that operates unbeknownst to enemy forces 100 miles into the front lines relaying information back to allied forces.

Of our three major remaining defense contractors, I feel Northrop Grumman has their crap together the most of all. Boeing has experienced a lot of rot from within after the McDonald Douglas acquisition while Lockheed Martin throws its weight around and wows everybody with initial performances and disappoints over the long term.

Northrop on the other hand has always dealt with a lot of heady, high concepts over the years and does it more quietly than LM.

Just my Monday morning quarterbacking
Username checks out!
 

CaliforniaBased

Woodpecker
Catholic
Aircraft will only become obselete once they can make drones that fly as fast as fighter jets & carry a payload of lets say a B-52 or C5. Until then Aircraft will still remain.

Although risky technically speaking the US, Russia or China could launch a massive fighter jet attack against enemy airfields ala Israel in the six day war to gain total air supremacy.

Fighters May make up 30-50% of the overall strike package in such an operation instead of 100% in 1967 but the theoretic danger that fighters possess are still useful in this day & age.
Sure you took out all of the enemny aircraft, but what of the SAM systems - including the easy to hide MANPADS
 

dicknixon72

Pelican
Exactly.

So what exactly is the point? The same function could be accomplished in a FAR cheaper platform. This doesn't even need to be a manned vehicle.
The B-21 will be optionally-manned. The only reason for it being a crewed platform is that it is nuclear-capable and no one in the world is ready to relinquish nuclear release authority to a computer.

Look at the windscreens, for example, compared to the B-2 - very small, just large enough to prevent crew from being spatially-disoriented. Crew will likely rely on virtually-enhanced vision and only 'need' windows for aerial refueling and landing/takeoffs.
 

Yeagerist

Kingfisher
Orthodox Catechumen
I think aircraft may become obsolete in the age of drone warfare. What advantage does aircraft have over artillery with real-time drone spotters?

Arty + drones is a fraction of the cost of aircraft, and far less vulernable too. Aircraft had an advantage over artillery because is was far more accurate, but in the age of drones it does not seem like aircraft has much of a use anymore.
I can still see aircraft being around for air superiority and air-to-air combat, unless drones surpass them even in that aspect and in 20 years we see dogfights being fought by operators behind screens. Even if a unit has spotter drones guarding its infantry and artillery positions, it will still be a proper precaution to get friendly air support and coverage. And as long as the Great Powers pose a threat of carpet bombing neighboring countries' infrastructure, armed forces will still maintain fighters.

Aircraft will only become obselete once they can make drones that fly as fast as fighter jets & carry a payload of lets say a B-52 or C5. Until then Aircraft will still remain.

Although risky technically speaking the US, Russia or China could launch a massive fighter jet attack against enemy airfields ala Israel in the six day war to gain total air supremacy.

Fighters May make up 30-50% of the overall strike package in such an operation instead of 100% in 1967 but the theoretic danger that fighters possess are still useful in this day & age.
Israel had the element of surprise in 1967 and the Arab states didn't expect the Jews to take the initiative. It's just like how the US was caught off guard in Pearl Harbor. I doubt that this moves can be pulled off in the present with the advancements in early warning systems.
 

Ember

Hummingbird
Other Christian
Gold Member
Israel had the element of surprise in 1967 and the Arab states didn't expect the Jews to take the initiative. It's just like how the US was caught off guard in Pearl Harbor.
The US leadership set up Pearl Harbor to allow entry into the war. They knew under what conditions the Japanese would be forced to attack and gave them no choice. A complete sea blockade was implemented to force Japanese deindustrialization.

The American Pacific Fleet was moved to Pearl Harbor so that it could be attacked.

American MI had the Japanese cypher codes and knew the attack was imminent. They deliberately withheld the information from the US Navy.

Two books cover this: 'Operation Snow' by John Koster and 'Day of Deceit' by Robert B. Stinnett.
 
Top