My view on dating in the USA.....is this accurate?

Viktor Zeegelaar

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
The internet dating or social media phenomenon isn't really representative of reality in my opinion. That's why guys need to grind it out in real life. It can be used as a supplement.

When I look at my own experience, I can get matches online but since it's a female market, they aren't that great. In real life if I'm around women, I can get interest off the bat from cute women, especially if there are repeat interactions. My problem many aren't Christians.

Online in the US is skewed for several reasons.

1) Too many thirsty guys.
2) The women who choose to go online are worse cause they either can't get attention in real life, have no friends, or the worst kind the ones looking for the perfect guy.

That overweight female who gets 100 messages online, is mostly ignored in real life.
It's the good old Pareto principle. 80% of guys fighting for scraps, 20% getting all the action, if not 95/5.

It all comes down to the next thing, it always does: women have a great time in their 20s, but the 60 years after that will be a drag. It's like popping 20 shots of wodka in an hour, having the best hour of your life, and then be sick for weeks. And you also know what you'd never do again? Drinking wodka.
 

TheosisSeeker

 
Banned
Orthodox Catechumen
I do agree with this. I have never done online dating, I am sure it is a very badly one-sided situation that is only getting worse by the year. But I do see a lot of very average men interacting with average (at least by USA standards) women.

I do believe women will always be hardwired to find men, who make them feel good, to be attractive. And of course being high status will set you up for this situation automatically. But if you can be charming, interesting, but most important show genuine interest in her and be a fun/positive guy, you will get a long way. These are my experiences. I try to always be positive, and women really like it. I interact with these women, not as a potential target to marry, but just as another person who is going through the struggles of life. They still react very well to these things. I don't know if that alone will get you a wife, but it sure is better than being ignored by a fatty online.

Yes :squintlol:

Women self select to go online and it creates a skewed population. Guys are the hunters, so it makes more sense for a guy, cause messaging or DMing a girl is easier than a real life approach. In the long run the easy road is bad, but it's more understandable cause men unless they are models or celebrities rarely get approached.

If a woman goes online though, think about what that actually means for almost all of them? Nobody wants to date them for whatever reason. Of course there are exceptions, but the vast majority, if they were attractive would have guys in their social circle at least pursuing them. Do they not have friends? Or is it more likely they are invisible or looking for a Tom Brady type online? Or worst of all are they fornicating nonstop, but want to snag a sucker online?

That's why I've always thought women who go online to date are just not normal and should be avoided. The entire process is fake, the interactions and communications are not normal either. I'm talking about in the US, maybe outside is different.
 
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Blade Runner

Crow
Orthodox
If a woman goes online though, think about what that actually means for almost all of them? Nobody wants to date them for whatever reason. Of course there are exceptions, but the vast majority, if they were attractive would have guys in their social circle at least pursuing them.
Yes, I've asked this a lot currently, even to women on this forum (recently). I cannot think of one woman in America, let's say, at this point that if she were clearly or objectively a 7+, heck even a 6.5 (whatever that means but you get the idea), that doesn't have both family and friends connecting her, or getting all sorts of options from men in real life. The issue for decent or good looking women has only been sifting through those who don't have any use for commitment. What's worse is that more and more modern women didn't care or lied to themselves about caring so that they could spend a short time with a hotter guy.
 

Blade Runner

Crow
Orthodox
We should also point out that since the ball is currently in women's court more than ever, and they react while men hunt or fish for them, they are the rate limiting step. Notice also that women being social creatures, and those around them, are part of this rate limited step in terms of enhancing the ability to connect men to women, or sabotaging/denying it. As such, there are historically speaking far more men that are above average right now, without real means to meet the very few women who they would deem worth all the work they put in (and rightly, since they did all the work). This is the real issue at hand. Many types in the world at large, and many (not all) in the women's forum think that there are still comparable numbers of men at the higher levels to women. While the number of above average people (as a percentage) may be small overall, due to there being so many average, below, and fat people generally speaking, the number of above average men vastly outnumbers the above average women; thus, our problem. I'm still confused why this is such a hard point for others to admit or recognize. I think it has to do with the fact that it really comes down to age/window of women as the explanation. If you don't get women at ages 18-25, biologically speaking (historical reality, and something shunned now in the culture of the west), it largely isn't worth it for a man to commit. The objection to this is based solely on "feels" I've noticed, since I have never seen any counter in the form of logic, facts, and conclusions from any supporting points or data. What's more, it is the reality of the situation on the ground. Most men are saying with this change in culture and priorities, the juice ain't worth the squeeze. Notice that this sentiment is from whom? Largely above average men. I wonder why they won't "man up"? I don't know, maybe you could ... ask them?
 

SlickyBoy

Ostrich
An interesting experiment (train wreck?) to watch has been the progression of Yeonmi Park, a defector from North Korea. She came to South Korea, then the US when she was about 13. She went to college and got married, had a baby then divorced three years later, in 2020. She's exploded in popularity, is all over social media and even from her wedding photos you can tell she wasn't totally thrilled with the obviously low status guy she married, probably seeing him as a stepping stone to bigger and better things. Check the Bing image search results for her name and Ezekiel (no last name - did she even take his?) to see what I mean.

It's fascinating how quickly a woman can adapt from literally eating grass roots and not knowing anything about the West other than pirated DVD copies of Titanic to motivate her to climb a social ladder she didn't even know existed.

She's not a bad looking but no model even by Korean standards, yet she skipped right past all the app swiping nonsense, just like every girl playing with Tinder really wants to do but knows deep down she cannot.
I have to edit my post just a bit - the more i read about Yeonmi Park, the more it seems her story isn't what it was cracked up to be. Posts in other threads detail the discrepancies. She's been accused, I think credibly, of lying or at least greatly stretching the truth about her experiences for fame and fortune. The more I look, the more I agree - something just seemed off about her whole shtick.

Alas, the "current thing" western news cycle template, grabbing headlines doesn't require truth, just a clever series of 30 second TikTok vids. Though I wonder how many more appearances on venues like Joe Rogan she can get.



Roosh summarized what's happening to her now best in an essay about moderation being a myth:

"A random female may attempt moderation when improving her look through surgical means. She only wants to inject a little filler in her lips to garner more likes for her Instagram photos, but once her lips are nice and juicy, she starts to notice the micro wrinkles on her face. Back to the dermatologist she goes for Botox, and you know what, she now feels that her breasts are two sizes too small. Can the kind doctor recommend a surgeon for breast augmentation? It started with the lips, and a few years down the line she looks artificial and a full decade older than her actual age."
 
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Cynllo

Ostrich
Orthodox Inquirer
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Blade Runner

Crow
Orthodox
Yes, more recently since a few random link-proposals have come in from family or friend connections, I've realized that everything is based strictly on society and demographic realities (just stressing this point more than ever). Women do want to get married, but they (whether their fault or not, some are collateral damage from the culture) only want it or really seek it out or make it known to others they know, in their mid to late 30s. As we've said, that's the issue. Given this reality, you can almost guarantee though, that the woman is average to bad looking (or overweight), or was always just average and is now an overweight-chubby/aged 30-something. Those women are ok for average or chubby non-tall men, but for anyone else, it's insulting, to be honest.

Ultimately, though it's not all of their fault, the point is that nothing will change for the better unless these women are just left as examples of what not to do. Fair or not, it's actually just rational acting. Go elsewhere, if possible, and reward those who reward you with proper treatment. And for all the hokey people out there, remember that everything in life has a type of transactional basis, but it doesn't have to be described that way. Do you hang out with people that treat you badly? No. You don't have friends that are mean, either. It's a type of proper discrimination. Seeking a healthy environment is what humans should do. Getting lucky in their 30s is what sadly most women try, and fail at, thinking they'll be a lotto winner.
 

Blade Runner

Crow
Orthodox
Would "conservative" dating apps play the same role, or be more oriented towards age gaps? It seems an anon profile there might be interesting, since most on this site also wouldn't want to be on lists of "dissenters" later on in our wonderful "republic."
 

Viktor Zeegelaar

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
Modern women are liabilities instead of assets. They're like buying a sack of stones, instead of a sack of gold like in the past. In the past, you would've to carry your woman too but got a lot of return (gold), now you have to carry her and get 0 in return (stones). And you're shamed and challenged into buying the stones (are you afraid of a strong and independent woman?). These women have never been taught what it is to be a woman, wife or mother, and instead to the opposite and be in confrontation and tension with their man all the time, so that's unfortunate, they're victim of Satanic deceptive education just like we men are in order to become a bunch of sissies.

The whole online thing by the way truly widens the gap of hypergamy. In the past a woman had limited attention, and had physically to go out of the house to get it, probably to some public gathering, or social event. Now, the attention is limitless and 24/7, which leads to the complete deception of she thinking she'll forever have all the options of the world, while these men obviously mainly look for sex and not for serious commitment in a relationship. But the online stuff leads to women becoming more and more, due to this inflated sense of self image, attracted to the top tier of men. So let's say in the past for a 50th percentile woman a 60th percentile men was good enough, now such a woman will at least look to an 80th percentile men or up, probably in the 90th percentile. For women it is binary: no or yes, 0 or 1, while for men it's more on a scale like 5 she's alright, 7 she's really attractive, 9 she would also make a good mother etc. (1 to 10). This then will lead to terrible disappointment as these women reach their 30s, don't get with the man they want and feel they deserve, and at the same time the attention they get from men goes down, which will leads to a steep decline and falling down from the cloud they were on, possibly for the 50 years thereafter as they will have to readjust to reality and it'll be a tough landing. For men this landing comes earlier, in your early 20s, when you realize that the results you get in life aren't what you want and so you have to change things up, while women don't get this feedback.

So in short, the social mediafication of society will have influence on dating and relationships to an extent we barely even fathom right now, and then I'm not even talking about the fact that social media means that women are always on edge to look for a better option or a backup, so that you have continous unrest and instability in your relationship. Truly the system is built in such a way that a stable relationship is as difficult as possible, if not impossible if boundaries concerning social media aren't drawn (the woman either closing down her social media in a relationship, or limited access or so, or the guy keeping track of the messages she gets, but then you're already a line too far and you don't have that stability you need to have a good relationship). Overall, I can't imagine to have a stable and serious relationship with a modern woman, unless she's an outlier and isn't big into social media, but for the vast majority of modern day women social media is extremely important, they're always on it, and many will even prefer their Instagram over a stable relationship with a man (literally), for it gives them the feeling that they continously have options, and when that closes it potentially makes them vulnerable, and it shuts down the chance of meeting a ''better'' guy. Makes you think how good the marriage system was: marriage, without chance of divorce, shuts down all these avenues into new relationships, therefore providing great stability and willingness of participants to work in unison towards a good situation for themselves together, their children and their extended family.
 
My theory on why dating, especially modern times/nowadays(~past 10-20 years) especially in the West is now so bad. I need to try to edit/phrase this to describe it well but also succinctly/unconfusingly.

The theory is: "attractiveness collapse"

Because of... injection rituals, environmental toxins, processed foods, and just the general toxicity/unhealthiness of the modern world, both sexes have dropped in attractiveness drastically. In "are you crooked" Forrest makes the compelling argument about injection rituals making people's faces less symmetrical/damaged in this way. On a tangential note this is (likely, to me almost certainly) why Gen Y/Z has a whole bunch of mental illnesses and other chronic conditions.

On dating. Attractiveness is the glue which holds relationships together or is the spark which allows them to form in the first place. Without it it's much harder. There are a few downstream things which explain the modern situation.

-Females' refusal to date below a certain "base" level of attractiveness. I think this was likely always somewhat true, but both genders used to be consistently be above this base, and males used to be able to compensate for this via other means(strength, intelligence, providing). Now most males are at or below this base. Online dating/social media makes this base more important(perhaps higher too?). Because of this (likely rightful?) need for a base attractiveness, yet females also being less attractive, this makes attractiveness hypergamy a de facto necessity for most females.

-The attractiveness collapse makes females insist more strongly on this attractiveness "base" whilst caring much less about the other criteria once this base is met, given the increasing rarity, plus other females also demand this, and the "preference" for males tends to converge.

-Blindness of females' regarding their attractiveness, and the attractiveness of the guys they like. Alexander Grace did a video somewhere, where males are disgusted by unattractive females but females don't even notice/think of them as invisible. Thus females wrongly conclude the males they like are representative. Also body positivity/delusion in the west makes them think every female is beautiful(as an autist, I don't know if they actually believe this or just cope). They are just unaware of how much better the males they like are relative to themselves.

-Regarding the above point, how much males would sacrifice regarding the attractiveness of their mates for casual relationships/start of relationships. Thus it's harder for the females to realise that the males are significantly better(the going goes, he is with me because he is on my level, not because he is dating down)

-Relationships are about give/take and about huge sacrifice. Generally, it's much much easier to sacrifice for attractive people/mates. With the attractiveness collapse, people are unwilling to sacrifice for their partners unless they are very attractive(generally, much more attractive than they are)

Probably a few other implications/explanations which have slipped my mind.
 

Jive Turkey

Kingfisher
Orthodox Catechumen
My theory on why dating, especially modern times/nowadays(~past 10-20 years) especially in the West is now so bad. I need to try to edit/phrase this to describe it well but also succinctly/unconfusingly.

The theory is: "attractiveness collapse"

Because of... injection rituals, environmental toxins, processed foods, and just the general toxicity/unhealthiness of the modern world, both sexes have dropped in attractiveness drastically. In "are you crooked" Forrest makes the compelling argument about injection rituals making people's faces less symmetrical/damaged in this way. On a tangential note this is (likely, to me almost certainly) why Gen Y/Z has a whole bunch of mental illnesses and other chronic conditions.

On dating. Attractiveness is the glue which holds relationships together or is the spark which allows them to form in the first place. Without it it's much harder. There are a few downstream things which explain the modern situation.

-Females' refusal to date below a certain "base" level of attractiveness. I think this was likely always somewhat true, but both genders used to be consistently be above this base, and males used to be able to compensate for this via other means(strength, intelligence, providing). Now most males are at or below this base. Online dating/social media makes this base more important(perhaps higher too?). Because of this (likely rightful?) need for a base attractiveness, yet females also being less attractive, this makes attractiveness hypergamy a de facto necessity for most females.

-The attractiveness collapse makes females insist more strongly on this attractiveness "base" whilst caring much less about the other criteria once this base is met, given the increasing rarity, plus other females also demand this, and the "preference" for males tends to converge.

-Blindness of females' regarding their attractiveness, and the attractiveness of the guys they like. Alexander Grace did a video somewhere, where males are disgusted by unattractive females but females don't even notice/think of them as invisible. Thus females wrongly conclude the males they like are representative. Also body positivity/delusion in the west makes them think every female is beautiful(as an autist, I don't know if they actually believe this or just cope). They are just unaware of how much better the males they like are relative to themselves.

-Regarding the above point, how much males would sacrifice regarding the attractiveness of their mates for casual relationships/start of relationships. Thus it's harder for the females to realise that the males are significantly better(the going goes, he is with me because he is on my level, not because he is dating down)

-Relationships are about give/take and about huge sacrifice. Generally, it's much much easier to sacrifice for attractive people/mates. With the attractiveness collapse, people are unwilling to sacrifice for their partners unless they are very attractive(generally, much more attractive than they are)

Probably a few other implications/explanations which have slipped my mind.
Thank you for posting something novel. Most dating threads are an extremely boring rehash. Muh hypergamy, muh wall, muh twenties, muh 80/20, muh height, muh college, muh feminism, muh tinder

All valid concerns, but I get tired of the rehash lol where it is just repeating the same exact thing I have been reading for nearly ten years now lol
 

CaliforniaBased

Woodpecker
Catholic
C'mon guys it is not that hard to be one of the more noteworthy guys out there. Value yourself and behave in a way that shows that. There are plenty of girls looking to get married to a decent (and worthy) guy. It is not hard to be attractive as a man - you simply have to free an inner primitivistic strength that is in all of us. If you are willing to get your life together and lower your standards just a bit - it will not be hard to find a loyal companion.

Yes, promiscuity is HUGE in the USA, and finding a virgin will be very hard, but despite this there are many women out there ready to loyally serve the right guy. Women - and people in general are two faced. They treat people differently depending on how they view that person. The same girl can treat one guy terribly and loyally serve another guy.

Even the nicest girls are ruthless when it comes to picking a man - let this be another motivation for us to be strong and fight out way through life - something that is not so necessary in this modern society. Be a man who can make his way through the world -and solve the problems of life and excel even when things are rough - and you will have the respect of many a young woman.

There is a lot of good left in MOST of the ordinary people in our country. Sadly, many good hearted people are tricked by all the liberal propaganda - for they are the most suceptible to these things. Unfortunately, a lot of times delinquents and dubious people are closer to the truth since they cannot be as easily fooled.
 

Blade Runner

Crow
Orthodox
I've been meaning to post this for a while a a new idea, but haven't for various reasons. No one thinks that they are average but most are. The average of males and females has grown (we have a HUGE population, thus this forum) in numbers and has dropped in objective measures, as this is part of the theory of numbers.

I post on the forum to get ideas, I guess that's all. I can't identify with average but can sympathize with it, as I am not average in any objective measure. I say this without ego but rather from an angle of viewing how posting goes on the forum. The reason why I can say this is that I can definitively describe what my objective qualities are that no one can argue with. Women, especially on the internet, can't do this. That's one of the differences in internet jockeying that can go on, even if people don't believe you are honest in your posting. One thing I've noticed also is that if I said I'm 6 foot tall and make a million dollars, I've never seen a woman say "I'm a great cook who will raise kids and help my husband in every way he wants, or to the best of my ability". Never.
 

Viktor Zeegelaar

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
I've been meaning to post this for a while a a new idea, but haven't for various reasons. No one thinks that they are average but most are. The average of males and females has grown (we have a HUGE population, thus this forum) in numbers and has dropped in objective measures, as this is part of the theory of numbers.

I post on the forum to get ideas, I guess that's all. I can't identify with average but can sympathize with it, as I am not average in any objective measure. I say this without ego but rather from an angle of viewing how posting goes on the forum. The reason why I can say this is that I can definitively describe what my objective qualities are that no one can argue with. Women, especially on the internet, can't do this. That's one of the differences in internet jockeying that can go on, even if people don't believe you are honest in your posting. One thing I've noticed also is that if I said I'm 6 foot tall and make a million dollars, I've never seen a woman say "I'm a great cook who will raise kids and help my husband in every way he wants, or to the best of my ability". Never.
Saying that would go against everything she has heard of until now. Women avoid conflict and I think that even when women would like to say that, they just don't dare to do so, for they're afraid to be ostracized, which triggers biological and deeply psychological triggers of fear of being left behind outside of the tribe and dying in the wild without protection. Not going against the mainstream ideas are, in the heads of women, seriously a matter of life and death.
 

Blade Runner

Crow
Orthodox
Saying that would go against everything she has heard of until now. Women avoid conflict and I think that even when women would like to say that, they just don't dare to do so, for they're afraid to be ostracized, which triggers biological and deeply psychological triggers of fear of being left behind outside of the tribe and dying in the wild without protection. Not going against the mainstream ideas are, in the heads of women, seriously a matter of life and death.
Good point. You'd think they would convey it on some level though even if it isn't done publicly.
 

aeroektar

Pelican
No one thinks that they are average but most are.

That's a great point that is never mentioned. Below average or average people speak of "average" people like they aren't worthy. There's a massive sense of entitlement across both genders. Even here a few weeks ago before the user AustraliaSucks was banned, he posted something along the lines of "no man should settle for a woman below an 8 and above the age of 21", a popular sentiment among PUA and migtow weirdos for many years. It's just delusional. And then he was complaining that no woman noticed or would give him the time of day in Latin America. Completely unaware of what's staring him in the mirror, marching on with his unrealistic expectations. These men are unwilling to look beyond exterior beauty and find a pleasant humble simple women who's on their level. So many have such unrealistic expectations these days (and I realize there's a lot of good average western men dumpster diving these days, which is another illness of all of this). Even a baseline handsome man or pretty girl, (not truly beautiful outliers) is really just average. If we weren't programmed to find average attractive, the human race would have gone extinct or not grown to this size. But we as a society lie to ourselves that average isnt good enough for us, or shame those who settle for "average" because our sick society told us you can only accept the best. And as this development has accelerated over the last couple decades... native western populations shrink. What's happening is a lot of people spin their wheels in an unsuccessful attempt to reach their unrealistic expectations, then at 40 something they have or will realize it's too late.
 
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Blade Runner

Crow
Orthodox
That's a great point that is never mentioned. Below average or average people speak of "average" people like they aren't worthy. There's a massive sense of entitlement across both genders. Even here a few weeks ago before the user AustraliaSucks was banned, he posted something along the lines of "no man should settle for a woman below an 8 and above the age of 21", a popular sentiment among PUA and migtow weirdos for many years. It's just delusional. And then he was complaining that no woman noticed or would give him the time of day in Latin America. Completely unaware of what's staring him in the mirror, marching on with his unrealistic expectations. Everyone has such unrealistic expectations these days. Even a baseline handsome man or pretty girl, (not truly beautiful outliers) is really just average. If we weren't programmed to find average attractive, the human race would have gone extinct or not grown to this size. But we as a society lie to ourselves that average isnt good enough for us, or shame those who settle for "average" because our sick society told us you always have to chase the best. it's absurd. And as this development has accelerated over the last couple decades... native western populations shrink.
Yes, you are getting at (more specifically) what I was getting at. The post I had can come off as self aggrandizing but I truly didn't mean it that way. I've just been around a bit longer and can appeal to certain characteristics that I know for a fact others can't. What's more, and your main point, is that the culture has bred more and more of this "the other is unworthy" attitude in us. My issue has been mostly that the fatties are unworthy, if I'm honest, or the oldies are, or the combo of both since they go hand in hand for women who peak very early in the modern world's "life."

I've met a good number of forum people, not a ton, but they are what you'd expect, and I have liked most because I can trust them because we see eye to eye. But men are competitive with one another, the number of hot women in an age with lots of media messaging (changing our perception of what we might want or deserve) is small, and most want to be part of the "game." Sad to say, but true. What's more, the predictability of women being attracted to any given guy can be so all over the place (even with men rated near the same level), because there are more things to consider with men that are subjective or not necessarily physical (income, charisma, humor, wit, intelligence, calmness, etc). For example, I've had girls I considered more attractive like me more than ones I've considered less attractive - which doesn't make much sense.

Having said all that, if the culture had just been pro marriage in the 20s for women (and thus everyone), most guys wouldn't have figured out that much more about life, which they do because of all the hard work they put in and thus the extra resources they have at their peak in their mid to late 30s. That's the killer for women, and why it's a killer for men, ultimately, if you are in a country where women bypass their 20s or feel that they can wait 10+ years on marriage because they have a career.
 

TheosisSeeker

 
Banned
Orthodox Catechumen
That's a great point that is never mentioned. Below average or average people speak of "average" people like they aren't worthy. There's a massive sense of entitlement across both genders. Even here a few weeks ago before the user AustraliaSucks was banned, he posted something along the lines of "no man should settle for a woman below an 8 and above the age of 21", a popular sentiment among PUA and migtow weirdos for many years. It's just delusional. And then he was complaining that no woman noticed or would give him the time of day in Latin America. Completely unaware of what's staring him in the mirror, marching on with his unrealistic expectations. So many have such unrealistic expectations these days (and I realize there's a lot of good average western men dumpster diving these days, which is another illness of all of this). Even a baseline handsome man or pretty girl, (not truly beautiful outliers) is really just average. If we weren't programmed to find average attractive, the human race would have gone extinct or not grown to this size. But we as a society lie to ourselves that average isnt good enough for us, or shame those who settle for "average" because our sick society told us you can only accept the best. And as this development has accelerated over the last couple decades... native western populations shrink.

I continue to see this entitlement across many parts of society. There's a Dunning-Kruger type effect that pervades the minds of many people that makes them think they are much better than they are.

I think the reason for this is people don't continuously test themselves against an objective standard.

That's why I think realistic hobbies are great because you immediately get feedback and know where are in the pecking order. The weight on a barbell is the same for every one.
 
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